Here is the URL to the site where Dave explains how the T-shirts were for getting the URL out:

[welikejesus.com]

1Ti 3:1 ¶ This [is] a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1Ti 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
1Ti 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
1Ti 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
1Ti 3:7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.


Dave, here we are taught that men of God must have the OWN house in order before giving themselves to teaching and the rest of Our Lord's work. You have emotionally and psychologically abused your own kids, you probably still abuse your wife, and now you prey upon other people's children because most of your own have broken free of you. You have not owned up to any of the pain you have inflicted on others, your own family, much less apologised or tried to make amends. You should straighten out your own household instead of going and screwing up other people's. How come most of your own kids won't have anything to do with you, Dave?

From:

[welikejesus.com]

"Rob wrote:
The other thing, is who cares if the system recognises our authority or not? Why is that important? It is truth and justice in God's eyes that is really what matters."


It seems to matter to Paul:

Romans 12:9-13:11 wrote:
Let love be without hypocrisy Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good.

Be devoted to one another in brotherly love; give preference to one another in honor;

not lagging behind in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord;

rejoicing in hope, persevering in tribulation, devoted to prayer,

contributing to the needs of the saints, practicing hospitality.

Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.

Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep.

Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation.

Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men.

If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.

Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.

"BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD."

Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Romans 13

Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.

Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.

For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;

for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.

Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake.

For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing.

Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

we nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed.


"Rob wrote:
would argue that EVERYONE is under God's authority (whether they like it or not!) and that God is going to judge the world and he may even use us to do it!"

1Cr 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?


I will start by saying that of course everyone is under God's authority. I will also say that not everybody is under the Jesus Christians. The group is not synonymous with God, nor are they claimants on His authority.

You'll note that Paul's argument in the passage you referred to was that since the saints would judge the world in the future, then surely we could resolve internal squabbles among ourselves without referring to external authority. Putting that back into the issue at hand, the ones being punished are not members of the Church, nor of the Jesus Christians, and so it is not an internal matter, and the Jesus Christians have no right to dictate.

Also, here's some context to that verse you quoted, a few verses before:

1 Corinthians 5:12 wrote:
For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?"






Another thing I can't figure out is why Dave and his followers will say on the one hand that they are not subject to system authority, system rules, and yet use that same authority and those same rules to their advantage when it suits them? Why say that the whole point of the trial and whippings was to show that they operate independant of authority and were doing this instead of prosecuting Joe's Dad and brother criminally, but then went ahead and did so anyway? Why does Dave feign
fear and call the very cops he is so contemptuous of? Didn't you stage this whole thing to be a big commercial for the Jesus Christians, except you didn't reckon it'd backfire, did you Dave? How arrogant and self-entitled are you? You need to make peace with your own children Dave, not lash out at the world by pimping out other people's on the street to sell your stupid books and whoring for publicity. You made yourself look like an a**hole on TV.

"MY brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment." (James 3:1 NKJV)

Dave, you can't keep a handle on your own kids; what makes you think you can successfully handle somebody else's? Who are you to put yourself above the rest of us in the Body of Christ and tell us about what God's unlimited grace is and is not? You seem to have a lot of contempt for anybody who disagrees with you. Where is your grace?

James 3:13 ¶ Who [is] a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

James 3:14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.

James 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but [is] earthly, sensual, devilish.

James 3:16 For where envying and strife [is], there [is] confusion and every evil work.

James 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, [and] easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

James 3:18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.


Acts 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.


Which Master do you serve, David McKay? You are a wolf who is eating the sheep that real men of God feed. Aren't all of these antics really
about you and your pathological need for validation, attention, and control?

Tts 1:5 ¶ For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

Tts 1:6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.

Tts 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;

Tts 1:8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;

Tts 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.


Get the message here, Dave? You treat people badly and abuse your wife and kids. You abuse everybody who gets stuck in your orbit. You are a sick man and I feel sorry for those who you have lured in, for your wife and child who's still there, and especially for you. I don't hate you Dave, even though my flesh wants me to. I pity you and grieve and pray for you.


Tts 1:10 ¶ For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:

Tts 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

Tts 1:12 One of themselves, [even] a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians [are] alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.

Tts 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

Tts 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

Tts 1:15 Unto the pure all things [are] pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving [is] nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Tts 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny [him], being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.


You have no right to intrude into people's family's lives and disrupt their children's futures in order to satisfy your need for control and to maintain your bully pulpit. How do you sleep at night? We're not just going to leave you alone McKay. I will not rest until you have been stopped.

[zeuszor], you are trying pretty hard to cause division in my family, but where are the children you say are so angry with me? We have disagreements, and strong ones at that. But all of our children lived and worked with until they were well into their twenties, when they were quite entitled to go their own way and live the way they want to live.

Now, do you want to present your own credentials with regard to how much your own wife and children are in submission to you?

My advice to you is to stop trying to cause division, or else if there IS some disagreement that becomes public knowledge, we may have to blame you for it, as you have done with regard to any divisions that existed in anyone else's families.

Dave:

There you go again.

Whenever people ask you questions, you then attempt to twist the topic back through some sort of personal attack.

It seems that two of your children don't follow you Dave, and apparently have little if anything to do with the group or you, with the exception of one child.

Isn't that right or do I have the numbers wrong.

That's the fruit from your tree Dave.

It is ridiculous for you to attempt to blame your family problems and failings as a father on zeuszor.

Don't you ever accept responsiblitiy for anything Dave?

It seems like everyone is wrong, but Dave.

You have hurt families by recruiting minor children, which has been reported in the press.

You have hurt Joseph Johnson, who was an outstanding student and athelete and his family, which Fox News exposed to the viewing audience.

You use your followers to garner attention for yourself, even having them put your website address on t-shirts when they appeared on Fox.

How pathetic is that.

You really came across as something of a lunatic on Fox Dave.

Pretty bad showing for you and your group.

Quote

Quote
rrmoderator
Dave:

There you go again.

Whenever people ask you questions, you then attempt to twist the topic back through some sort of personal attack.

It seems that two of your children don't follow you Dave, and apparently have little if anything to do with the group or you, with the exception of one child.

Isn't that right or do I have the numbers wrong.

That's the fruit from your tree Dave.

It is ridiculous for you to attempt to blame your family problems and failings as a father on zeuszor.

Don't you ever accept responsiblitiy for anything Dave?

It seems like everyone is wrong, but Dave.

You have hurt families by recruiting minor children, which has been reported in the press.

You have hurt Joseph Johnson, who was an outstanding student and athelete and his family, which Fox News exposed to the viewing audience.

You use your followers to garner attention for yourself, even having them put your website address on t-shirts when they appeared on Fox.

How pathetic is that.

You really came across as something of a lunatic on Fox Dave.

Pretty bad showing for you and your group.

[b:232302f024]It's hard for DM to deal with what is happening here. In his group, if someone has a problem with what he is doing he is able to sit them down and tell them why they are wrong in their opinions. Occassionally, he is unable to get them to admit their error, then he is able to gather a group and they all attack the person. Usually the offender will crumble under the preesure, but, occassionally they don't, and if they don't... they get kicked out of the group and labled a rebel.

The process is loosely based on Biblical principals, but, with Dave calling the shots and assassinating the character of anyone who dares cross him, it is not used correctly or fairly! Surprise, surprise.

Anyhow, after 20 odd years of being in control, it is probably natural for him to freak out a bit when challenged publicly.[/b:232302f024]

How come one of your sons (I won't name him publicly here) doesn't even like to be mentioned in the same sentance if it includes your name, or want to be associated with you in any way? He and I have corresponded a bit and he seems to think that you're not a nice man either. In fact, his distaste for you is palpable in the emails we've exchanged. I haven't met the rest of your kids, but I have met him via email, and it seems like his issues with you go way past "strong disagreements". He thinks you are downright evil. I'm not causing division, the division has already taken place. There's some reconciliation that needs to take place there. You need to say you're sorry. Are you even capable of feeling remorse, David? Are you capable of [i:2a2a712b06]feeling?[/i:2a2a712b06] Do you know what [i:2a2a712b06]empathy[/i:2a2a712b06] is?
Also: 1) I am not married and have no children and have nothing better to do right now than to work to expose you and undermine the control you have over your cult (1 Corinthians 7) 2) you are absolutely correct when you accuse me of trying to cause division in your group. I am attempting no less of a task than exposing you publicly to the end of stopping you from hurting anybody else's kids. Darned right I'm trying to cause division. 1 Corinthians 11 says that some divisions are necessary so that those who are approved by God may become manifest from those who are not. 2 Cor. 11 also has very strong statements about false teachers like you.
Oh, and another thing: riddle me this. How come on the one hand you published on the web that you operate independant of authority and the trial and all was held so that you didn't have to involve the police, but then you and Reinhardt involved them anyway and aggressively prosecuted Joe's family, even [i:2a2a712b06]after[/i:2a2a712b06] the whippings were held?? You are a liar!