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jograves
Aloha, brah! Why you want beef?
I read the thread, and a lot of posters keep saying how clever B is, how smart, how charismatic, what a good musician, how the devotees are idiots, hero-worshippers, slavish followers. Like B doesn't really want the whole Guru thing, he's just a victim of his devotees, he can't help it if they worship him, hey, who wouldn't accept all that adoration and cash if they had the chance?
That's called opportunism, not genious, by the way.
I always thought he was a dork. He was just too goofy for words. I never could figure out why everyone said he was so cool. I would have told him so if I'd got the chance, but you know how that goes......

What is most insidious about cult leaders is that they are usually very clever, smart, charismatic, and even have special talents like music. They never have the face of, nor the demeanor of evil. None of these adjectives equal goodness or its opposite. (If a person is opportunistic for a good cause, it no longer carries a perjorative meaning.) They are only qualities in the service of something good or evil. It is these very qualities that fool people.

There is also a spectrum of followers. Many innocent, idealistic, intelligent, skilled, good and educated people got duped, ripped off, fooled, exploited, and even "brainwashed". They got trapped the same way a person gets into drugs. There is even a suggestion that changes in the chemistry of the brain occur with chanting and self-hypnosis. Both "addictions" are very difficult to overcome. (I want to state here that in my opinion not all meditation techniques or chanting or prayer is bad -- only when coupled with the ill intentions of a cult leader using them for his own means.)

There are also a group of followers who, like the guru himself, have a twisted, sociopathic or criminal bent. They ofen become the guardians of the threshold, fulfilling the duties of the "bad cop". The guru knows how to manipulate and use these fellows too. One book I read on cults years ago described this type as the guru's "bookends". They are the sh*tty, nasty types who you have to go through to get an audience with the guru and do his unpleasant biddings.

On another post somewhere on this forum "whitemoon" (another kid whose parents were followers of JG) gives a scathing characterization of JG's followers. From his perspective, all he saw were bums, hippies, and losers who could not make a life for themselves. That is what he saw growing up. And there were a lot of this type of person as well. These types were particularly easy to manipulate, but less reliable and never put into positions of real responsibility or power. They usually had few job skills and were not always the sharpest knives in the drawer. Some were outright freaks.

The skilled, monied, and educated were put in upper or middle management positions and enjoyed more autonomy. Though not immune to JG's "put-down" tirades, they usually got more attention or at least awe, respect, and immunity from the lower echelon followers.

JG has a great eye for talented people and courts them in a variety of ways. He also has a great eye for people's weaknesses. Being a good corporate leader does not make the corporation a good thing. If JG had not fried his brains on acid and become a delusional "spiritual" leader he would have been on the cover of Fortune magazine. Mr. Butler is no dork or goof ball. He is far mor dangerous.

What is also insidious is that even though I was a well educated and responsible person with good parenting, I fell into the group hard. It took me years after leaving the group to recognize that I had been in a cult. No one in a cult EVER thinks they are in a cult. You believe with absolute certainty that you have found the truth. Criticism of your guru is intolerable. One follower "Jessica" described criticism of JG as painful as razors to her. That is the nature of the animal.

Is the cult leader to blame? Certainly. Are the followers to blame? It depends on where they lie on the spectrum and what deeds they commited while in the group. They are still a type of victim. Are the children of followers to blame? Never.

[b:517a5e5705]LEAVING LAS SIDDHA

To Jessica and those of you still in JG's group:[/b:517a5e5705]

One of the things that kept me inside the group was pure, blinding FEAR that the world was a miserable place and that I needed to liberate myself from it. Relationships were lust. Only love for guru and God was real love and the only place where real truth and happiness lay. I was told that if I left, it was because I was envious or in the mode of ignorance and would be forever miserable.

After I left, most of the misery I experienced was from the residual "brain f**k" or "thought control" tapes running in my head that were ruining my life. I literally had to re-wire my brain. I had to shut down completely and reboot. (Thank goodness, I never had a nervous breakdown or had to take anti-psychotic drugs, like some ex-cult followers).

All through my stepping out I remembered the words of someone who left the cult. He shared with me the following, "You know, it's really funny. I was always told I'd be miserable if I left. I'm really much happier." At the time I heard this I was still in the group. I thought the guy was totally low-class and lost. I thought he was trapped by Maya and envious of JG. I thought he didn't know what real happiness was. Now I know different.

Post-cult I found that life is still a roller coaster with it's ups and downs. It is dynamic and always in motion. Where it stops, illness appears. JG's group was a dead stop for me. I'm "surfing" life again. But I have control of how I react to this reality. My destiny is in my own hands. Happiness is in my own hands and my own creation. I surrounded myself with positive and creative people and found my life work that helps others and brings me great joy. I have both physical and spiritual activities in my life. Family is a treasure, no matter how goofy or chaotic it can be. Wheel of birth and death? Sure, why not!? But as "Gandalf" said in LOTR, "What are you going to do with the time you have left?" And you notice that Gandalf never sat on a Vyas Asana or the throne of the King! He never ordered Frodo to give him the ring either. We all have our rings to carry. We can also find loyal friends to help carry the burden. Sauruman sits alone in his castle tower with Wormtongue and his miserable urukai creations who serve him tea and tofu. That is not joy even when he laughs.

To Jessica and all of you who think that anyone who leaves the group is miserable. Think again. It is just not true. Our lives are not doomed. We are not spiritually dead. We are not demons. We breath the sweet air of freedom. It is not Maya. We are human too and suffer what you suffer. We suffer the world's problems and our own limitations. We greive at the death of loved ones. But that does not stop us from striving to make the world a better place. If you are healthy, you don't focus on all the problems, nor are you in denial about their existence. You move on and focus on the solution or next goal. And ethics are important. I could go on and on, but you get the point. Besides, you need to come up with your own philosophy. [b:517a5e5705]The point being that there is LIFE and happiness after you leave JG.[/b:517a5e5705]

Jessica, you say you found truth. Why did it allude you before? Consider it still alludes you. Or perhaps you have been ignoring it all along. Expand your world. Recognize how circumscribed it has become. Do you really think JG will lead you to Krishna and gopi land any more than he will lead you to Never, Never land!? The truth is that as long as you are content to give up everything to him, he will take and take and leave you in the dust. He may smile at you and tell you he is pleased and take care of your basic needs to keep your body and soul together, like slave labor, while he takes everything else to the bank. That is the true face of the truth you have found.

You and many others still enamoured by JG are women in love and not likely to listen right now. You have not seen much behind the curtain yet. Perhaps you never will. Just know there is a curtain and a "hum bug" wizard behind it all.

You want more truth?
He is the Emperor with no clothes, the fool of fools.
He is Sauruman, the power hungry dictator.
He is the Wizard of Oz, an ordinary man with a cheap side show.
He is Peter Pan, living in a delusional world where he never has to grow up.
He is Coyote, the trickster and liar.
He is Shabtai Zvi, the false messiah.
He is the Pied Piper, leading the children away.
He is the Trojan Horse, "Your guile is hidden inside a magnificent gift that proves irresistable...The walls open. Once inside wreak havoc." (quote about the Trojan Horse by Robert Greene).

zelig

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What is most insidious about cult leaders is that they are usually very clever, smart, charismatic, and even have special talents like music. They never have the face of, nor the demeanor of evil. None of these adjectives equal goodness or its opposite. (If a person is opportunistic for a good cause, it no longer carries a perjorative meaning.) They are only qualities in the service of something good or evil. It is these very qualities that fool people.

Yes, but the followers can be just as bad if not worse. Why? How can I explain? The followers are more likely to ACT on his fanatical ideas and stretch things out with the autonomy they do possess. They are more apt to be more directly involved in prosletizing activities. All Chris has to do is act like a saint, close his eyes when lecturing to make it appear as if he is in deeeeeeep spiritual communication with Krishna. He's not so involved in recruitment. He resents his followers, except the few he keeps close to his inner circle and those he can use the most (material resources). He has no care for his follower's welfare, either physically or spiritually. And those involved in recruitment follow this attitude except they are responsible for running centers, bringing in new members, indoctrinating, and keeping them in the group.

I don't completely disagree with you, man.
Most of the devotees I know are pretty nice, but they're just like everybody else. Human.
Here are my observations:
Why be a devotee (of anyone)?
Well, the devotees are cooler than everybody else!
They're smarter, and won't be reborn as a pig.
They're so much more enlightened than everybody else. And Saintlier!

If you're real groovy, you get to make a movie! Or be in The Band!

Maybe the Guru, (the Movie Star, the President) will hand you a rose!
(Then all your devotee friends will be jealous!)
And you get to be so humble and holy that everybody gasps whenever you walk by because they want to be just-like-you and you know it!
(There is a lot of one-up-man-ship in the group, as in "real-life". It can be subtle. Just watch, closely, the way visitors get treated at kirtan.)

That's why it's so terrible to hear anyone criticize your guru, cult, idol, etc...
You might start to doubt all of the above and then what would you do?
It would be worse than dying to have to go back to being an ordinary schmuck like the rest of humanity, maybe not even get reborn at all.

A lot of it is just ego, man. The ego of the followers as much as the top dog.
There's a razor blade for you. Ouchie!
Everybody has a ego. If you are aware of it, maybe you don't get trapped as easily.

All cults are the same that way.
"I'm better than you because the guru says I'm special!"
"I'm better than You because I slept with the movie star!"

I don't think it's really fair to describe all of the devotees as star-crazed followers, though. I don't want to do that, so I'm going to add this.
There are other reasons to join up.
Some people really want to get to know God, and are fooled into thinking that someone else has the answers. The one who thinks he has all the answers might be mistaken, or he might know he's tricking everybody and not care.
It's also possible to fall in love with a devotee or with the group. Is that such a crime?
I wouldn't condemn anyone for wanting to be part of the group because they really love them and want to be around them. That's the real appeal, and it's what most of the prospects say when they start to spend a lot of time around the devotees. If they can't handle the hero-worship, (or if the hero doesn't accept them), they don't sign up.

Movie stars and gurus aren't any smarter or more creative than anyone else.
They are better pretenders, obviously. If they're prettier and more talented they get paid $$$ to play the role.
If they're plain and untalented they have to play second fiddle and resort to trickery and public relations to get the attention and the $$$. Or play "where-is-the-star-hiding" games and pretend they want to walk away from it all (except the $$$, of course).

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jograves
So, what, it's our own fault if we fell for it?
Some of us aren't hero worshippers. Some of us were just suckers. Bombai we gone wise up. Some got no choice, either, like da keiki.

Hey Joe! I think we might need some translation of the Hawaiian lingo for those people who cannot understand it:

Bombai = By and by

gone = going to

da keiki = the children

da kine = "the kind" - has various vague meanings such as da kine mango = this kind of mango, do you know da kine = do you know him, etc. etc.

Correct me if I'm wrong, please, anybody!

:idea: I wonder if Siddha's mansion got damaged by the quake? He would probably blame this on his followers for jumping up and down too hard at the kirtan - thus trembling the earth and causing an earthquake??? Siddha likes to blame his followers for everything, after all!

:cry:

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zelig


You want more truth?
He is the Emperor with no clothes, the fool of fools.
He is Sauruman, the power hungry dictator.
He is the Wizard of Oz, an ordinary man with a cheap side show.
He is Peter Pan, living in a delusional world where he never has to grow up.
He is Coyote, the trickster and liar.
He is Shabtai Zvi, the false messiah.
He is the Pied Piper, leading the children away.
He is the Trojan Horse, "Your guile is hidden inside a magnificent gift that proves irresistable...The walls open. Once inside wreak havoc." (quote about the Trojan Horse by Robert Greene).

He is Darth-Vader, the wannabe Lord of the Universe.

:lol:

My daughter, follower of Chris Butler for 5 years, thinks she was a guard in a WW11 concentration camp in her past life and that is why she is having so much trouble eating, loosing weight, putting weight on. Refusues to talk about Chris Butler or the group so guessing she still considers herself a "devotee" . Comments?

Hi Suzi

This is typical of the negative type thinking that some of these people can exhibit. They also believe that chanting the name of God will wipe away all their past sins, so how come this never seems to happen?

This certainly sounds like a crazy notion - that she was a Nazi in her past life and this is why she is suffering now. Unfortunately, it sounds like she may be having some psychological / psychiatric problems. :?:

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami used to say "Chant Hare Krishna and be happy." However, so many of the Butler followers seem to get "tangled up in blue" so to speak, and going off on some weird tangent like this, or on some weird anti-homosexual tangent... etc...

Anyone else out there in cyberspace who can throw some ideas on this topic?

:?:

I agree with "googling" -- get your daughter a good psychological assessment with someone who specializes in eating disorders.

Chances are if she is still chanting, eating vegetarian, that she still considers herself a devotee, but doesn't trust you to open up.

The whole idea of reincarnation in the butler group is to get people to fear the wheel of birth and death and are motivated to get free from it You do this by chanting, living the 4 regulative principals, and by serving krishna and guru directly. Chris Butler was never interested in people speculating on who or what they were in their past lives. He used to mock people who did "past life regression" hypnosis or anyone who claimed he was such and such or did this or that. His point was always to just serve him and you will be free. So people give up their lives for this false promise.

Did you write that your daughter came home because she was sick? If this is so, it is also typical. If someone in the group was not functioning at a high level of service, they would not be taken care of by Chris or his group. As long as someone was contributing, they would be taken care of to the degree of the effort and purpose. It was all very business-like in the end. If someone had serious psychological or physical needs and were not in the upper echelons, forget a hand out or a careing devotee bringing you hot soup! Anyway, a lot of people, especially women with children were on welfare with medical benefits. A single woman with few job skills and an emotional instability would not get far in the group. At least this is how it was 20 years ago. No provisions for charity for others.

I do remember one young woman who ended up in a psychiatric ward on Kauai. She had been in ISKCON and joined the Butler group for awhile. No one paid much attention to her and she ended up on the streets. None of the "householders" would help her out and she couldn't stay with the boys in the ashram. A friend of mine and I snuck off to visit her a few times. They loaded her up with Thorazine and she eventually went home to the mainland. I was puzzled by the fact that none of the devotees would visit her or that Siddha never spoke of helping her. She was a sweet kid.

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suzi
My daughter, follower of Chris Butler for 5 years, thinks she was a guard in a WW11 concentration camp in her past life and that is why she is having so much trouble eating, loosing weight, putting weight on. Refusues to talk about Chris Butler or the group so guessing she still considers herself a "devotee" . Comments?

You could try to convince her that probably all those Nazis have already been repaid their karma and been reborn already as the millions who were starved and killed in Cambodia, Vietnam, Rwanda, Congo, etc etc etc .... thus using her own twisted logic to try and drag herself out of this negative black hole that she seems to have gotten into.

Unfortunately I have seen this negativity manifested in various different forms in the followers of Chris Butler. They may have started off with the "chant and be happy" positive attitude, but over the years it seems like the negativity creeps in and then lower and lower into depression.

If she is not watching the Butler videos or listening to the taped lectures, then maybe just common sense and time will be able to drag her out of her depression. Try to convince her to take a more positive attitude towards life :!:

To you x-devotees of Chris Butler: what made you finally decide to leave the group? Something someone said?