I would love to see the tape of Chris Butler. How can I get my hands on this? I have been sifting through some of your letters and all has been helpful. I have a daughter that has been home for 4 months after 5 years in an ashram. She is a mess and not willing to talk about it. Looking for advice. What does haribol mean? When do devotees take on a new name? Can a new devotee actually meet Chris Butler? How old is this character? Do most devotees live in Hawaii and California, or in all states?

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suzi
I would love to see the tape of Chris Butler. How can I get my hands on this? I have been sifting through some of your letters and all has been helpful. I have a daughter that has been home for 4 months after 5 years in an ashram. She is a mess and not willing to talk about it. Looking for advice. What does haribol mean? When do devotees take on a new name? Can a new devotee actually meet Chris Butler? How old is this character? Do most devotees live in Hawaii and California, or in all states?

Hi Suzi:

Haribol means "chant the name of God"
The devotees take on a new name when they get "initiated" (usually after a few years of serious committment)
I'm not sure how easy it is for a new devotee to actually meet Chris Butler, but yes probably - eventually. CB is about 58 years old maybe.
And, yes, I think most live in Hawaii and California, also a lot in the Philippines, Poland, Australia, and maybe some still in Arizona, not sure of any other states, though.

Good luck with your daughter - at least she is back home now - probably best not to mention things like "deprogramming" around her, maybe talk about the ideas of reincarnation and maybe pretend to show a bit of interest(?).

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suzi
Can a new devotee actually meet Chris Butler?

On second thoughts... if she is not a big money maker and if she is not politically active, I think the chances of meeting Chris will be remote.

:cry:

suzi, here is a link to chris butler lectures, they are old, but they represent him well. (I am sure he is far worse, although this is the rhetoric of the followers.)

[www.indiadivine.org]

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just-googling

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suzi
Can a new devotee actually meet Chris Butler?

On second thoughts... if she is not a big money maker and if she is not politically active, I think the chances of meeting Chris will be remote.

:cry:

Yes, but the followers can be just as bad if not worse. Why? How can I explain? The followers are more likely to ACT on his fanatical ideas and stretch things out with the autonomy they do possess. They are more apt to be more directly involved in prosletizing activities. All Chris has to do is act like a saint, close his eyes when lecturing to make it appear as if he is in deeeeeeep spiritual communication with Krishna. He's not so involved in recruitment. He resents his followers, except the few he keeps close to his inner circle and those he can use the most (material resources). He has no care for his follower's welfare, either physically or spiritually. And those involved in recruitment follow this attitude except they are responsible for running centers, bringing in new members, indoctrinating, and keeping them in the group.

The Jewish kapos and French guards in the concentration camps were often more cruel than the German soldiers. (My father was in such a camp for prisoners of war.) In this case it was forced and grew out of the need to survive and great physical/ psychological abuses.

In the case of this cult it has more to do with what ever happens psychologically to people who are attracted to this sort of thing (the desire for spiritual enlightenment, ecstacy, or the need to feel that they are good and doing God's will or perhaps more complex motivations one can research). There were no drugs nor physical abuse used ---- only a philosophy that contained some truths to fool you and to cover up a ton of lies along with twisted logic to confuse you. This was coupled with activities and peer pressure to keep you away from thinking even one original, beneficial thought.

If a doubt came to the surface, there would come a million and one phrases and arguments into your head. (e.g., "Doubts are like demons." "You are in Maya's - illusions grips.") If you thought that something was off, a fear would arise in your mind. (e.g., "This is blasphemous." "How can you doubt the pure devotee!?" "He is God's representative. It is arrogant to place your opinion on an equal level as the pure devotee!" "You are envious." "You are less intelligent." "You are in the mode of ignorance." "You will risk spiritual death and will be reborn as a pig or worse!") Where did these thoughts come from? From JG's lectures, his followers, and the persistent cultural pressure. If you didn't listen to lectures or didn't act quite right there was always someone in the community who would be sure to tell you how you should think. And if you couldn't be corrected, you would be shunned by all your friends and family in the group. They would all think of you as a demon. It's quite a system.

The chanting then serves, not what the original purveyors from India intended (as a way of worshipping the Supreme), but a great tool for self hypnosis. JG is very clever. He doesn't have to exert much energy at all --- his fanatical followers do it all for him. They are all idol worshipers with the idol being Chris. Whatever it is inside of us, whatever tendency we have to worship another human being beyond normal respect and admiration, beyond our own sense of inner worth, that proclivity that makes us over-ride our inner authority, is precisely what is exploited by Chris and his group. That is the true face of the demon. That is the face of the theif that robbed us of our lives.

So, what, it's our own fault if we fell for it?
Some of us aren't hero worshippers. Some of us were just suckers. Bombai we gone wise up. Some got no choice, either, like da keiki.

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jograves
So, what, it's our own fault if we fell for it?
Some of us aren't hero worshippers. Some of us were just suckers. Bombai we gone wise up. Some got no choice, either, like da keiki.

What's with the fake Hawaiian talk?!

Anyway, who cares if you were a hero worshipper or a sucker? What's the f***ing difference. The ass was still up in the air when you bowed down to him!!! Are you responsible for wising up or just lucky?! Hopefully your life got back on track. That's the point.

To the keiki that got out; Rama --- a quote by Aldous Huxley:
"Children are remarkable for their intelligence and ardour, for their curiosity and tolerance of shams, the clarity and ruthlessness of their vision."

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jograves
So, what, it's our own fault if we fell for it?
Some of us aren't hero worshippers. Some of us were just suckers. Bombai we gone wise up. Some got no choice, either, like da keiki.

If you re-read my post again you will see that I used other expressions and terms to illustrate what you might recognize as "mind control", "psychological peer pressure and coerciveness", "brain washing", "hypnosis". All the typical cult techniques. I chose not to use these overused buzz words, but the meaning is the same. Oh, that's why they are called euphemisms!
Would it make it better if I described JG as the "Lord of Lies" Satan using his innocent followers as his "hell hounds" drug around by bloody balls and chains! Or that he had us all tied up by the balls with our japa beads! How about, the evil, manipulative b**tard is a theif who uses others for his own sense gratification and steals resources and years away from his followers. Harsh and direct enough for you? Feel better. Why don't you take the time to write and share your experiences in your own words now.

eu·phe·mism
(plural eu·phe·misms)
n
1. less offensive synonym: a word or phrase used in place of a term that might be considered too direct, harsh, unpleasant, or offensive
2. use of inoffensive words: the use of a word or phrase that is more neutral, vague, or indirect to replace a direct, harsh, unpleasant, or offensive term

Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2005 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

That said, do you really think some person questioning their involvement in the group would listen to these truths if I wrote them so bluntly?! I'm telling the truth of what happened in the way I can, in the way I lived through it. It is not likely that someone will have a bad memory of JG directly or listen to criticism of the man (whether "brainwashed" or "convinced"* of his divinity), but they will have more memories of nasty, fanatical followers who make their life miserable. They are more likely to start questioning parts of the philosophy before they question JG. Let them begin questioning there. All roads will eventually lead them to "Rome" (the head of the snake).

*FYI -The word "convinced" is a euphemism for the word "brainwashed".

So why don't you add your two cents to help them OUT!

Aloha, brah! Why you want beef?
I read the thread, and a lot of posters keep saying how clever B is, how smart, how charismatic, what a good musician, how the devotees are idiots, hero-worshippers, slavish followers. Like B doesn't really want the whole Guru thing, he's just a victim of his devotees, he can't help it if they worship him, hey, who wouldn't accept all that adoration and cash if they had the chance?
That's called opportunism, not genious, by the way.
I always thought he was a dork. He was just too goofy for words. I never could figure out why everyone said he was so cool. I would have told him so if I'd got the chance, but you know how that goes......

I just wanted to say that from my time in and out of the JG circle (from birth to the age of about 15 I was very involved, I have increasingly distanced myself from it since then to now, at 27 years old.), I think zelig's analysis above is totally right on.

Although one thing that I think about a lot is the history of this movement.
I mean Gaudiya Vaishnavism.
From where I stand, I have yet to see any evidence of there being ANYTHING good about it, and yes, I am talking about A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami and the movement ha descended from.

Sure, he was a lot sweeter and more intellegent than Chris Butler, but what he brought over here was never going to be anything but what it turned into, the chris butlers, the ISKCON disaster, etc.

I will elaborate more in another thread, I'll post a link here when it is done.

This will REALLY get people pissed.