Finding out that they have their pious snouts as deep in the material trough of sense gratification, sense enjoyment, deception and ignorance as the next person. Though they pretend otherwise, endorse as much as the next Joe the universal truth: "Lack of Money Is the Root of All Evil".

That his Divine Grace A.C. Bahktivedanta Swami Prabhupada was not only aware of child molestation under his auspices but subtly endorsed it by not taking ultimate responsibility or action for what happened under his position as "guru".

Have created a colony of brain anaethetized morons, gutless fakes and goose heads who refuse to think for themselves and take responsibility for themselves as members of the human race, which for all its faults, is a shining display of joy, tragedy, bravery, sacrifice, courage, love and the pure truth and privilege of having been part of its existence.

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suzi
To you x-devotees of Chris Butler: what made you finally decide to leave the group? Something someone said?

[b:cd46d58978]YES, EXACTLY - SOMETHING (OR ACTUALLY MANY THINGS) THAT CHRIS BUTLER HIMSELF SAID.[/b:cd46d58978]

These have been discussed formerly in the other thread about Chris Butler, but to repeat some of it again here, the reasons I personally stopped listening to Chris Butler are because he has said these things in the past:

1991:[/color:cd46d58978] Chris sends out a proclamation that ALL his disciples (in USA at least) should fast from food for 6 MONTHS. The reason: the servants were 5 minutes late delivering his breakfast to his residence! (NOTE: the kitchen was located in the poor part of the city, many miles from his residence in the richest part of the city.)

MID 1990's sometime:[/color:cd46d58978] Chris accuses some of his disciples of a CONSPIRACY to kill him. The reason: they had turned his air-conditioning unit to full blast. Chris states that the cold air will damage his lungs and threaten his life. I personally know the people who turned the air conditioner on, and I can say with all conviction that this accusation is ABSOLUTE RUBBISH. This mishap was due to a lack of communication from Chris Butler himself... in other words if Chris had said to his followers: Turn my air conditioner to number 6 - they would have done so. They assumed he wanted it turned to number 10, as this is what Chris demanded at his headquarters (the "warehouse").

1988: [/color:cd46d58978] Chris sends out a proclamation that he needs a "POLICEMAN" to monitor all those bumbling and incompetent servants of his. The duty of this policeman, I suppose, was to make sure the idiots turned on the air conditioner to the correct number, that they did not get a hair in his food, etc etc. Yes, Chris had become the centre of the universe way back in 1988.

1990's:[/color:cd46d58978] Chris sends out a proclamation that ALL his followers should be donating at least 25 per cent of their income to him. As he himself was living in the lap of luxury with very expensive living habits, and as some of the followers were unemployed and struggling to survive, this edict seemed to be totally irrational. And another thing: he was laughing as he said this, saying that it was the duty of the spiritual master to take away from the householders that which is most dear to them - THEIR MONEY.

1990's sometime: [/color:cd46d58978]Chris proclaims that his followers have shortened his life by ten years and the life of his dear wife by ten years as well. The reason: part of a makeshift roof collapsed and fell onto his wife's head. I can understand blaming the person who had built the roof - but the blame fell onto ALL his followers for this!

Yes, these are some of the things that someone said that made me leave this cult.

I'm sure other people have many more to add.

:?

The roof collapsed on her head because her singing is so orrible, the first time I heard her chant, I thought it was a transexual.

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TheTruthAsItIs
The roof collapsed on her head because her singing is so orrible, the first time I heard her chant, I thought it was a transexual.

Yeah, she is like the Yoko Ono of the Cult!!!! After Siddha hooked up with her, things just got weirder!

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TheTruthAsItIs
The roof collapsed on her head because her singing is so orrible, the first time I heard her chant, I thought it was a transexual.

:lol: :D :D Yes, she really brought the house down!!! Kinda like those people who when they hit a high note glass starts shattering.

But it's amazing what you can do in the studio with a lot of ECHO CHAMBER, etc!

:)

Yes, they were lucky it was just the roof and the whole building didn't come tumbling down. It was so bad I nearly fled in terror, years later I can still hear that quivering high note wail as if it was yesterday.

You had to be there to believe it ... orrible, orrible, orrible.

Here's another interesting little story about Chris Butler:

Let me explain: the Bhagavad-Gita and Srimad Bhagavatam books all had addresses of ISKCON temples at the back of the book. Siddha's instructions were that these addresses were to be removed, as he considered ISKCON to be his most evil enemy at that time (this was before he got onto the homosexual rant).

He said that anyone who was in possession of these books was his enemy. So the followers would black out or cut out these addresses and any reference to the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. Maybe some of them got rid of the books altogether(?)

HOWEVER, in his lengthy purports, A.C.B. had also made reference several times to the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, and I'll bet that most of Siddha's followers missed these! Plus the Bhagavad-Gita As It Is had many references to "Krishna consciousness" and this is synonymous with ISKCON ...

In other words, I think Chris Butler was discouraging his followers from owning these books.

:!:

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just-googling

In other words, I think Chris Butler was discouraging his followers from owning these books.

:!:

YES!!! I was at a class once in Brisbane where his disciple Gayatri dasi was explaining this in detail and saying that it was the responsibility of anyone who owned these books to black out the ISKCON details as soon as they got them because if they ever gave the book away to anyone they could end up being responsible for guiding them to the evils of ISKCON and derailing their whole spiritual life.

Also :

They do not buy or own books that were written prior to 1978 (I think that is the year Bhaktivedanta Swami died, if not whatever year that was) as they say all the books have been changed. I have not actually sat down and checked this - I wonder if they have :?: But the only example I was ever given is that where it referred to spiritual master ISKCON had made this plural apparently (it seems to make sense to me) so that they could endorse the 11 controversial successor gurus as worthy of being worshipped 'as good as God'.

I was told at the same class that one of my favourite books which I had already read before joining SOI The Teachings of Queen Kunti was not to be read because it was only written by a disciple and not AC himself (Of couse I didn't say ummm you mean like Siddhaswarupananda's books, but I certainly thought it) She said that she had seen Siddha with a copy of it and he had pages torn out and biro all through it where he had deemed there were errors. The thing is this book is based on the Scripture in Srimad Bhagavatam and again I have not checked in detail, but the comparison that I did do showed it was very much the same story and philosophies.

His devotees also do not accept cantos 11 and 12 because the 11th which AC had begun working on when he died was finished by and the 12th entirely written by a disciple who he directed to take over. Perhaps they think that this take over was unauthorised or that the disciple was unqualified but it is just another example of deifying AC and then demonstrating that they believe he was incapable or that as a direct representative of God perhaps Krishna was taking a nap or something while his work was being subverted :?

I found it very strange that they ignore such a large amount of scripture, especially as it says in the introduction to Srimad Bhagavatm that anyone who reads it all will "Attain to Krishna - of this there is no doubt."

Reading scripture in my experience was seriously discouraged. The complete emphasis on how to progress in spiritual life was on listening to Siddha's lectures and reading his books. He has even re-written Sri Isopanisad (I don't know if anyone but disciples can get a copy, but it was being read at the Brisbane centre during kirtan) and it is very different to AC's translation and purports.

I can also verify what j"ust googling" and "cultreporter" have said about ISK[b:6aa9c7b252]con [/b:6aa9c7b252] books. We blacked out the ISK[b:6aa9c7b252]con[/b:6aa9c7b252] addresses so people would come to us instead of going to a harry krishman temple. There was a real attempt, and reasonably so, to distance ourselves from an organization that was engaged in child abuse, drug dealing, and murder at the time! Books and tapes coming out of ISK[b:6aa9c7b252]con[/b:6aa9c7b252] were being edited and changed after ACB's death. And followers writing had their own agendas woven within the traslations. Unless you were a real scholar of Sanscrit and had access to the original writings, how on earth could you find out the truth? So no, we did not trust ISKcon authors.

Followers of Siddha in the 70's were not discouraged from studying scriptures. I spent two years daily studying ACB's "Bhagavad Gita As It Is" with Siddha and his followers DAILY. We also studied the "Shrimad Bhagavatam" and the "Chaitanya Charitamrita" very often. All these books were translated and commented on by ACB, which we studied and had classes regularly. Siddha would have a student read from the book and then comment. He never contradicted ACB's purports.

Siddha's whole thing at the time was just to get people to chant, play music, be happy, eat healthy vegetarian food, exercise (surf), live a simple life, be nice to animals, and think of Krishna. He was very accessible and present. There was no pressure to change your culture (as was the case in ISKcon --- shave your head, wear Indian robes, start speaking Indian idoms, phrases, even imitate an Indian accent, etc.) In fact, several of Siddha's followers did not live all the 4 reg principals and he knew it. One of his first followers was also gay. He didn't judge or push them away. He used to say that he was just happy they ate prasadam and showed up to play drums at kirtans. He felt that one day they would get purified. And some followers did drop some bad habits and became more serious. This was all before Siddha started all of his many businesses, before he opened the first Down to Earth. Siddha lived very simply back then. You can't even imagine how simple. And he was a much happier man. But he always had a lonliness and distance about him. You'd feel really close to him, but there was always that space between you that you thought was his holiness. We thought he was so enlightened. We projected onto him all our ideas of what a pure and wise person should be --- and he played the role well. The kirtans were amazing in those days.

After ACB's death, Siddha began his video career and started publishing his own books. That's when things really began to down shift. I understand why I stayed so long because I had had so many years of positive and close contact with Siddha. You go into denial. I finally woke up. I don't understand how people can follow him now who have not even met him! But I guess he has recruited well; his followers have learned the art of seduction from him now.

As time went by, the responsibility and burden of more followers and businesses took a toll. The gay follower had ripped him off of a substantial ammount of money from one of the businesses. This may have been the beginning of the homophobia, but it (the homophobia) did not come out for years after that incident. A lot of his female followers became lesbians or outed in the 80's. Some left when they were criticised for having "illicit sex".

At any rate, "Guruitis" is a progressive and chronic disease. Both ISKcon and SOI are cults with cult leaders, so attempts to be an apologist for one group or the other against the other is ludicrous. Both cults are damaging. Arguing against Siddha because he did not follow his guru is just absurd. Too many people excuse ACBHaktivedanta for not knowing what his followers were doing or use the statement that he took on too many followers to control the situations. Often it is difficult to distinguish a real religious system and a cult. A cult leader will hide within the confines of a tradition or religion and entwine inside it like a tangled slinky toy. There is no way to ever straighten in out or pull it out undamaged or without damaging the space it inhabited. Both ISK[b:6aa9c7b252]con[/b:6aa9c7b252] and [b:6aa9c7b252]SOI[/b:6aa9c7b252] usurped ancient traditions.

Zelig,

I totally agree with your last post apart from my own opinion that the relevance of talking about Siddha's disobedience regarding AC contradicts what his own directives to his followers that you can't have a spiritual life without a spiritual master.

For many who question things about SOI but are not unfaithful their decision not to leave, or the explanation in their delay for leaving is that they fear that without Siddha ISKCON being what it is that they will not be able to have a relationship with Krishna anymore. I think the contradiction of Siddha's own example in this regard is obvious.

Siddha gains a lot of credibility from saying that he is a disciple of AC, it sounds impressive and seems to give an air of authority particularly to new people or those who do even a little research into ISKCON and do not want to go there.

It does sound good that Siddha did his own thing after AC died and that he spoke out against ISKCON - this is the story that got me in. Now that I am researching Siddha's time with ISKCON though and his life it would seem that he was never really loyal to AC or ISKCON in the first instance and was always up to cultivating his own followers.

I really do think he is just a product of the era and put himself in the right place at the right time.

I actually despise ISKCON and the more thought I have put into it I have come to thinking that yes the whole thing is a big sham and that people only don't want to admit what AC was personally accountable for because then as far as KC goes there would be nothing left to believe in. As he himself said if one disciple falls down then it is proof that the spiritual master was not bonafide. For anyone who believes in the scripture that this was derived from the proof is there many times over.