I don't know how much Bloom was responsible for the teaching on the high places, etc. Ole certainly led me to believe that it was all his own research, but he may have used Bloom as a sounding board while he was going through it. For whatever responsibility Bloom has for that wicked aspect of the doctrine and the dark places it led us to, he has much to answer for. There are those who think that the hot seats were where Trinity really went off-track, though I think there were problems with it inherent in Ole's psychology and that it would have eventually gone off the rails one way or another, anyway.

Very interesting you say the "guy" Bloom was talking about was you. Do you know where he got the information about Cult Watch then? You don't think Bloom saw into the organization enough to realize TFI was a destructive cult? Bloom's writing is often pretty incisive, and generally seems to confront the issues. It is interesting too how you speak of Bloom as one of Ole's peers, and not the same as the "disciples." Yet Bloom was not convinced TFI was a cult.

I can believe you when you say Ole actually hates it when people leave. I doubt that he really means what he is saying in a certain sense. I think he may mean that he is trying to make anyone leave who has a divided committment about following Christ. I can remember him in a Bible Study saying things to the effect of "You still wanna live a good life? You wanna be successful? You still believe you've got something do? Then GOOD-BYE." So in one sense, I suppose he does try to push those called "almost disciples" to leave. I'm not sure I have a problem with that. Maybe I should, or I percieve this incorrectly? Ole would say he is a "bondservant" of Christ, and so he might be showing his fleshly feeling when he says he wants people to leave. Maybe it is just an absence of guile?

And yes you are correct in saying John Bloom is aka "Joe Bob Briggs" and not "Billy Joe Briggs" as i mistakenly said Brian.

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NathanA
Very interesting you say the "guy" Bloom was talking about was you. Do you know where he got the information about Cult Watch then? You don't think Bloom saw into the organization enough to realize TFI was a destructive cult? Bloom's writing is often pretty incisive, and generally seems to confront the issues. It is interesting too how you speak of Bloom as one of Ole's peers, and not the same as the "disciples." Yet Bloom was not convinced TFI was a cult.

I am sure Bloom got the story about "Cult Watch" from Ole.

I think part of what Bloom is quoted as saying is that he was not sure that Trinity is not a cult, so he had enough insight to be somewhat troubled. I think Ole has put a lot of energy into convincing Bloom that he and Trinity are on the up-and-up because Bloom has been a significant financial benefactor for Trinity over the years.

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NathanA
I think he may mean that he is trying to make anyone leave who has a divided committment about following Christ. I can remember him in a Bible Study saying things to the effect of "You still wanna live a good life? You wanna be successful? You still believe you've got something do? Then GOOD-BYE." So in one sense, I suppose he does try to push those called "almost disciples" to leave. I'm not sure I have a problem with that. Maybe I should, or I percieve this incorrectly? Ole would say he is a "bondservant" of Christ, and so he might be showing his fleshly feeling when he says he wants people to leave. Maybe it is just an absence of guile?

But you are getting caught in the monkey trap, here. LEAVING TRINITY IS NOT THE SAME THING AS LEAVING CHRIST. Choosing to live out the call of Christian discipleship somewhere other than Trinity Foundation is not the same thing as being an "almost disciple." However, by issuing these constant bogus challenges to people Ole is setting up people to believe exactly that: i.e. that to fail to please Ole is the same thing as failing to please God.

And, in my experience, Ole is not free from guile. In fact, I would say quite the opposite.

I don't equate following Trinity with following Christ. It is certainly possible that one could leave there while following Christ. I suppose the idea I am positing is that Ole is making sure someone is there because they are following Christ and not for some other reason. He doesn't seem to let people be luke warm. I'd venture to guess that you view the situation differently though. Maybe you'd say that there is no good reason to leave Trinity in Ole's view? Do they make it pretty black and white, like you are either in or you are out? Do they eliminate the middle ground?

Also, what is the greatest point where you've seen Ole's guile?

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I don't equate following Trinity with following Christ. It is certainly possible that one could leave there while following Christ. I suppose the idea I am positing is that Ole is making sure someone is there because they are following Christ and not for some other reason.

I’m sure that is what he would say. Ironically, he has managed to have run off most of the people who were really there out of a sincere desire to follow Christ.

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He doesn't seem to let people be lukewarm. I'd venture to guess that you view the situation differently though.

Yes. I would say he equates lukewarmness with people being insufficiently pliable to what he wants them to do. That is, he views those who are less controllable by him as being lukewarm.

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Maybe you'd say that there is no good reason to leave Trinity in Ole's view? Do they make it pretty black and white, like you are either in or you are out? Do they eliminate the middle ground?

Absolutely. That is how I started this whole thread, with the idea of shunning and the fact that, to them, there is no legitimate reason to leave. They refer to people who have left as being in “outer darkness.”

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Also, what is the greatest point where you've seen Ole's guile?

Ole’s greatest guile is with himself. He is unable to acknowledge to himself his own responsibility in hurting the people whom he has hurt.

[b:b767591127]Jack Crawford: Just do your job, but never forget what he is.
Clarice Starling: And what is that?
[cut to Clarice's first trip to the psychiatric prison]
Dr. Frederick Chilton: Oh, he's a monster. Pure psychopath. So rare to capture one alive. From a research point of view, Lecter is our most prized asset. [/b:b767591127]

Ole is the Hannibal Lecter of the world of Christian ministry. Reminds me of that scene in [i:b767591127]The Silence of the Lambs.[/i:b767591127] From the point of view of psychiatric research, quite a fascinating specimen...but keep him at arm's length, and never forget who he [i:b767591127]really[/i:b767591127] is. What he's [i:b767591127]really[/i:b767591127] thinking about is what he can get out of you. He'll get into your head, manipulate you like a toy, and then eat you. I am blessed to have gotten away from him with my faith intact. It blows my mind more and more every day...

I don't equate following Trinity with following Christ. It is certainly [b:e3edc8a5e0]possible[/b:e3edc8a5e0] that one could leave there while following Christ. I suppose the idea I am positing is that Ole is making sure someone is there because they are following Christ and not for some other reason. He doesn't seem to let people be luke warm. I'd venture to guess that you view the situation differently though. Maybe you'd say that there is no good reason to leave Trinity in Ole's view? Do they make it pretty black and white, like you are either in or you are out? Do they eliminate the middle ground?
Also, what is the greatest point where you've seen Ole's guile?

NathanA
Do you think is [b:e3edc8a5e0]possible[/b:e3edc8a5e0] for a Baptist to leave their group and still follow Christ? It is not for Ole or any other person to decide who is or is not luke warm. That's God's role. (Who kicks Ole out when he gets luke warm?) The Bible says to let the wheat and the tares (weeds) grow together until the harvest then God will separate them. Otherwise you will pull up the wheat along with the tares. Ever notice how Ole attempts to take on role of God with his group? Shame on Gary and others who allow it. Doesn't everyone go through luke warm periods? I know I do and I usually know when it is happening without anyone telling me.
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