I just noticed I spelled controversy wrong earlier.

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I am not entirely sure what I think. I have seen Ole as a prophetic voice in the past. Certainly he has ruffled feathers on talk shows and the like, I am not sure if it is for good reasons all the time. Do I see him as "Jesus"? I don't think so.

You don’t [i:4e76e394cc][b:4e76e394cc]think[/b:4e76e394cc][/i:4e76e394cc] so?

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I do though have strong inclinations to believe the spirit of Christ has been revealed in him in a rare way. I think he has been a chastising voice to the church and has seen some very serious problems that have arisen in North American christendom.

Yes, if it weren’t for Ole we would all have joined the Word of Faith movement. C’mon, Nathan. Ole is picking on the people that nobody takes seriously anyway. He is like the guy who beats up the kid in school that everybody hates. Wow, that takes real courage.

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I think he has been falsely accused of alot of things, including garnering media attention to satisfy his narcississm.

Again, this is a completely unsupported opinion. What basis do you have to say such a thing? Have you spent time with Ole? Do you really know him? This is the kind of statement that makes everyone think you are flaming. If you are going to disagree with us, bring something factual to the discussion that contradicts what we are saying. I know Ole extremely well based on my 20 years with him (10 as a roommate), and I have been extremely careful about any accusations I make. I do not say things that I cannot support by my personal experience and observation. It blows my mind that you make these kinds of statements. Do you know me or my wife? Why do you say we are making false accusations?

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I think he is doing what he does because there are teachers and prophets who have risen within the church that are hurting many people.(ie. Benny Hinn, Robert Tilton) I think he believes what he does with integrity, and has been misunderstood.

I have never said that Ole does not think he is right in exposing corruption in the televangelists. I have said that Ole has turned a blind eye to his own spiritual corruption.

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Having said that, I wonder if he has crossed lines that are not good. I wonder if he has reacted so strongly to happenings within the church that he has lost some balance. I wonder if the radical views at Trinity have sometimes fed a sense of uniqueness that is not healthy.

There is much at Trinity that is not healthy.

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Ole has always said that he comes down very hard on anyone who believes Trinity is "special." So I don't necessarily know.

Again, this is part of the frustration in talking with you—you question us incessantly, but you take everything Ole says at face value. However, to be fair I need to put part of the blame where it belongs, which is back on Ole. Ole is past-master at saying the right things, but his practices and the practices of Trinity Foundation do not line up with what he says. For example, they have repeated the story about them rebuffing three times anyone that comes to them wanting to be a disciple so often, I think they have actually begun to believe that they do this. However, this is pure fiction—a lie—cut from whole cloth. That is something I have never seen done. They don’t do it, but they tell everyone they do. That way, they can say, “We don’t recruit people, which proves we are not a cult.”

Ole tries to have it both ways, so he might say something to his minions about not thinking Trinity is special, but at other times he will say things that communicate that being a part of Trinity is being a part of something very special, indeed. There is definitely a spirit of elitism at that place, Ole’s ass-covering denials notwithstanding.

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I think some of the men Ole is accountable to have maybe provided some of that needed balance. They have certainly rejected some of his ideas.

Why do you think that, other than it is just what you want to think? I was on his board of directors, and I can tell you that it was basically a rubber-stamp board. Sure, they have probably balked at a couple of his most extreme ideas, but there is no real process of accountability there. Again, I will take my years of experience to be more authoritative than your wishful thinking.

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I have also heard him say in the Bible Studies that not everyone must accept all his doctrines , but that for TFI, they must be faithful to what they've been given. So I think there is more to the equation than TFI just being an outright destructive cult.

I have heard him say, on several occasions, “Can two men walk together if they do not agree?” Again, he is good with those statements that give him plausible deniability, but you do not understand the social dynamics of that place and the pressure they are able to bring to bear on anyone who dares to disagree.

I realize, Nathan, it is confusing when things are not as they seem to be, and it is hard to sort out what is real and what isn’t. The folks at Trinity are capable of being charming at times, and as long as they perceive you are with them they will be kind to you. It was only after leaving the place and getting a little distance and objectivity that I was able to see that place for what it truly is. In fact, (I may have said this earlier in the thread) it was quite some time after I left before I began to refer to them as a cult. Initially, I just thought I needed to leave because my relationship with Ole had gotten very unhealthy, and that I was the one probably mostly to blame for that. However, once I had gotten some distance, and once I had experienced how they treat anyone who wants to get some distance, I began to get a more accurate picture of reality.

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That in my view is too strong an assertion. There are some elements that make them seem a little cultish, but I think you can see those things too in a group of Benedictine monks. Maybe my perspective will change after reading Wendy Duncan's book.

I hope so.

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Having said that, I wonder if he has crossed lines that are not good. I wonder if he has reacted so strongly to happenings within the church that he has lost some balance. I wonder if the radical views at Trinity have sometimes fed a sense of uniqueness that is not healthy.

I think you are more than wondering, Nathan. A part of you already knows, but you don't want to admit that you have been deceived. I completely empathize with this, because that is one of the hardest things any of us (i.e. the fifty or so former members for whom Wendy held the pen) has had to deal with. It is painful and disorienting to discover that you have been had, that someone was able to play you like a drum.

However (and this is the point of Wendy's book), there is a way to heal from all that, and a way back to spiritual and psychological health.

I'll be reading the book pretty soon. I can understand why it seems inconceivable that I would have a more accurate view than you would Doug. You are the one with credibility on your side as far as personal experience with TFI goes. You've lived with Ole for 10 years and been one of TFI's leaders and teachers. I am a guy who has paid attention to Ole in the media, talked briefly with him on the phone about your accusations, and listened to a few hundred hours of Bible Studies and interviews featuring him. I have had contact with Gary Buckner over the last year or so. You spent everyday of your life there for years.

I recognize that these things are true. It could mean that level of personal experience has hindered your ability to keep an objective view and Ole has become a monster in your mind, or it could mean you see things pretty accurately. I hope not to unfairly judge you in that. All I can say for your consideration is that I have seen similar things within Church bodies that I have been in. Somebody leaves the church and has all kinds of issues and problems with it. I have seen that happen after people spend many years in a congregation.(whole church splits happen that way) That man is free to tell someone who has never been to that church all the problems he sees with it and to stay away. His years of experience with the church do not though necessitate that he sees everything going on there with absolute clarity. I will listen carefully to such a man, but I will have to hear what others in the church have to say. I don't have to believe he has a monopoly on credibility because of the many years he has spent there, I must balance it with what others within the body say who have spent many years there too. There is a subjective part of this debate, and it may lend to the truth, but it does not necessarily determine it. Spending many years at a place is not logical proof that you percieve reality. I am not trying to be condescending, I am only telling you why I remain skeptical of you in spite of the large portion of your life spent at TFI.

Nathan, you make a fair point, and I would have to agree with you if the only basis for this discussion was simply Wendy's and my perspective. However, as I have pointed out, our perspective is shared by many other former members of Trinity Foundation. Wendy contacted numerous former members of Trinity—many that she had never met before.

This is a direct quote from Wendy's book:

"This is my story and undoubtedly suffers from my subjectivity. I have tried to portray my experience at Trinity Foundation in the most truthful and accurate way I could, drawing not only from my experience, but also from the reflections of former members whose time at the foundation spanned the last thirty years. I contacted over three dozen former members of the Trinity Foundation and conducted over a dozen formal interviews. Only those individuals who consented are quoted directly in this story; however, their names have been changed to protect their privacy. Quotes from former members are the actual words they used, although in some instances they were edited for the purpose of space and clarity.

In addition to the informal and formal interviews from people associated with the Trinity Foundation, I spent hours listening to Trinity Foundation’s tape recordings of Bible studies, which spanned the twenty of the last thirty years—they began recording their Bible studies in 1985. I also poured countless hours into reading every newspaper or magazine article that could be found that had been written about Ole Anthony or the Trinity Foundation. I invested months in researching Ole’s background..."

Wendy and I both understand that there is some subjectivity to our view, but I think we are making some points that are valid. Obviously, Trinity is not 100% bad—I certainly would not have stayed there for as long as I did if it was. When you are dealing with people things are complicated, and there is always going to be a mixture of good and bad. However, the thing that is troubling about Trinity Foundation is that they seem to be erring on the end of the spectrum that is the opposite of what you accuse us of—that is, they are presenting themselves as if they are all good and have never made any mistakes that require them to examine their own responsibility and deal with it in a meaningful way. I would be happy to hear from them something that had a little humility to it, that acknowledged that they have made mistakes and are willing to try to make amends. There are dozens of hurting people out here that could benefit from Trinity actually making some attempt to deal with all of this in a Christian manner.

Before you come back to me with a quote from Ole, John, or Gary where they say something disingenuous about them admitting their mistakes all the time, let me preempt you by saying that I know they are good at those CYA statements. However, that is not the same thing as actually taking responsibility for the harm they have done. To my knowledge, they have never once sought the forgiveness of anyone they have hurt.

The way they have responded to Wendy’s book is a perfect example. Instead of using it as an occasion for honest self reflection, they have done nothing but justify themselves and throw darts at us. They don’t get it, and I don’t think they really want to. It would require them to be both vulnerable and honest, which are things that they just are not very good at.

Good post Doug. I see where you are coming from.

I am really looking forward to reading the book.

Until you do read the book, please keep your comments to yourself. I find your insensitivity very upsetting and offensive.

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zeuszor
Until you do read the book, please keep your comments to yourself. I find your insensitivity very upsetting and offensive.

If Nathan is being pusposefully insensitive or if he is willfully trying to push people's buttons, then he is to be faulted for that. However, the fact that [i:b8c9aee612]you[/i:b8c9aee612] are offended is more your problem than his. I do not wish to see him go away or stop posting, though I hope he is in the process of learning better social skills in terms of how he talks to people.