"The only enemy of faith is one's mind. One's mind is the antiChrist according to ole; therefore, since a person's mind is the antichrist, unless he lives in community, he cannot be freed from his bondage. The individual always wants things to change. The mind cannot possibly concieve that the state it is in is exactly as it should have been. Any time you want conditions to change it means that you have not truly heard God. The individual has to come to that place where he loses the capacity to judge that every moment is not as it should have been. If one is not at peace, not content, if irritated ot someone, or if worried about someting, then he is not "in Christ" and is a vessell of wrath. Christ cannot occupy where self is, so the evidence that the person is a vessell of wrath is the discplay of any self-seeking or mere thought for his needs or wants in any aspect. In the Trinity epistemology, the individual is never to consider self in any arena; one had to totally empty himself."

Page 131:

"The effect of this process was that it induced a state of extreme passivity in Ole's disciples, and they ultimately handed de facto control of their lives over to him. Of course, this control was exercised in the name of servanthood."

What it boils down to, Nathan, is that the effect of Ole's teaching in this respect undermines your capacity to think or judge for yourself, and if you hear it often enough, what the subtle message is is that the only mind you can trust is Ole's and the only judgements that are sound are Ole's. OLE IS NOT JESUS, so it's not valid reasoning to justify what Ole does by comparing it to what Jesus taught. Jesus did most certainly NOT put his disciples on the Hot Seat. If you really believe that you are more decieved than I thought. You seem to think that Ole is somehow on the same level as Jesus.
What he is teaching, in other words, is "I'm smarter than the rest of you, and I know things about the mysteries of God that you can't know. If you don't see it my way, you have the mind of a brute beast and don't have repentance. Hear me and go to heaven, or don't and go to hell." He believes that he has been shown things in the Spirit that have been lost to the Church for the last 2000 years and that he's here to guide is back into the true expression of the Gospel. DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT THE REST OF THE CHURCH HAS MISSED WHAT OLE SUPPOSEDLY SEES?

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NathanA
What is muddled about my logic? All I am saying is that those of us who know the grace of God also know that we don't have rights, but that we offer up ourselves as living sacrifices. I am saying that that quote from Wendy's book disagrees with that theology.

Nathan, please explain to me IN YOUR OWN WORDS what the phrase "we don't have rights" means.

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When I say we don't have any rights I mean that as a disciple of Christ, you no longer keep any right to yourself, even self-preservation. You are completely a vessel that belongs to God, to do his bidding alone.

Please restate that point in your own words. I get the image that Gary is standing over your shoulder, prompting you about what to say when in actuality, you don't have any idea what "you have no rights" really [i:25bf4fc83e]means[/i:25bf4fc83e]. Shoot, [i:25bf4fc83e]I[/i:25bf4fc83e] have no idea what that means. It sounds deep and profound, but in all reality it's about as shallow as a kiddie pool in terms
of giving an explanation about why Ole habitually treats people like dirt. He has contempt for anybody that's not as smart as he thinks he is. Here's Ole's version of Romans 9 in a nutshell:

[b:25bf4fc83e]
Vessel of mercy=anybody who agrees with Ole Anthony's point of view and is willing to follow his lead.

Vessel of wrath=anybody that does not agree with OA's opinions and is not willing to uncritically swallow whatever he says.
[/b:25bf4fc83e]
Here's a few more translations of TFI-isms for you:

[b:25bf4fc83e]
Antichrist mind=your mind when it is not conforming to OA's opinions and view of the world.

Pick up your cross, enter the rest, get on the mercy seat, just be=
"You brute beast. You have started thinking independantly and uncritically and must repent of your pride. You have a rebellious spirit. Let Ole be in charge. The only mind and senses we can trust are his!"[/b:25bf4fc83e]

Hello NathanA,

Do not give your free will up to any one. You are on the edge. Ask Gary why he did not tell his "group" that a fire walk was planned at Rick's ranch. He knew about Ole's plans ahead of time. As an elder should he not have warned us? God protect us from our Trinity's sheperds!
Cultaware

"No wonder Wendy says Ole Anthony's teachings are heresy. I question if Wendy knows the Jesus who said he came to "give his life to be a ransom for many" either." (quote from NathanA)

NathanA, I'm glad to see you back, but honestly, you don't really believe that Wendy Duncan doesn't know Jesus! That's way over the top! I just finished her book and I don't think someone could write it without an intimate relationship with God.

You really do need to read her book, but you and that other defender (I forget her name) probably are too closed minded to see the truth.

Being a member off and on for 15 years I'll try to answer these questions as they relate to me.

[b:61f96fcd57]Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader. [/b:61f96fcd57]

[u:61f96fcd57][i:61f96fcd57]Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability. [/i:61f96fcd57][/u:61f96fcd57]- There is a board of directors and I've seen others dismiss Ole's ideas on certain subjects. Lately, he just gives his two cents worth in and most of the time the elders will vote on doing something else. He has been accountable for his actions and I've seen him ask forgiveness from group members.

[u:61f96fcd57][i:61f96fcd57]No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry. [/i:61f96fcd57][/u:61f96fcd57]
LOL...I don't know how many times Ole has said. "Stop just sitting there acting like sheep. SOMEONE ask a question." Ole loves to debate and gets tired of people NOT asking questions. He doesn't want someone there if they just want to follow blindly. He teaches us to search for the answer if we don't believe what he preaches. The only thing is...if you get into a debate with him he's not going pussy-foot around you. He does get tired of having someone ask the SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN. I know I get tired of listening to someone ask the same thing over and over again.

[u:61f96fcd57][i:61f96fcd57]No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement. [/i:61f96fcd57][/u:61f96fcd57]
Yeah...so Ole has some money. Others around here make more money than him. My family makes and has more money than him. The Trinity budget is completely open to anyone and Trinity willingly opens their financial statements to anyone that asks.


[u:61f96fcd57][i:61f96fcd57]Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions. [/i:61f96fcd57][/u:61f96fcd57]
I have a fear of heights...and elevators. I HATE elevators.


[u:61f96fcd57][i:61f96fcd57]There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil. [/i:61f96fcd57][/u:61f96fcd57]
People care if you leave. Because they are saddened that they might not see you again. If and when we decide to move, my interractions with Trinity members will be less becasue I've moved away but I KNOW without a doubt that I'll still have my poker nights with my friends, go to the movies or the yearly Christmas party. In my perspective, I don't think that anyone who left is evil. I'm glad they left and found another spiritual home that is a better fit for them. If others think that they are evil then they need to stop. BUT if someone kept complaining about Trinity this and Trinity that all the time then I'd personnaly not like them very much. Also...I've never shunned anyone BUT I HAVE been shunned by ex-members because I still go here...and that hurts frankly.


[u:61f96fcd57][i:61f96fcd57]Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances. [/i:61f96fcd57][/u:61f96fcd57]
I've heard some ex-members that agree with Doug and Ole and I've heard of some ex-members that don't agree with Doug and Wendy. It just depends on the person.


[u:61f96fcd57][i:61f96fcd57]There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader. [/i:61f96fcd57][/u:61f96fcd57]
The only record is Wendy's new book and the Observer article. The Observer article was poorly written in my personal opinion because the reporter left out a lot of interviews that were actually pro Trinity and put in interview that were anti-Trinity. I know, I've heard from a lot of people that said they were interviewed yet nothing was put in there.

[u:61f96fcd57][i:61f96fcd57]Followers feel they can never be "good enough". [/i:61f96fcd57][/u:61f96fcd57]
I've actually been told that I'm a good mother, good wife, etc. Personally I don't care if I'm good enough of not. I'm fine the way I am and I intend to keep growing in my career choices and spiritually. I may not be 'good enough' in my Mothers eye but she can go jump in a lake...LOL


[u:61f96fcd57][i:61f96fcd57]The group/leader is always right. [/i:61f96fcd57][/u:61f96fcd57]
**Snort**, if Ole or Gary or John were always right then I'm richer than Donald Trump. I've personally told some of them they were wrong about things. As for Gary and John...well....according to their wives...they are ALWAYS wrong.

[u:61f96fcd57][i:61f96fcd57]The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible. [/i:61f96fcd57][/u:61f96fcd57]No..nada...nope. Ole is constantly harping to "find out for yourselves", "don't just take my word for it..SEARCH..get off your lazy butts and find out the truth!" or "READ the BIBLE!" or. "If I'm wrong...argue with me...debate with me...just don't follow blindly!".

[b:61f96fcd57]Ten warning signs regarding people involved in/with a potentially unsafe group/leader. [/b:61f96fcd57]

[u:61f96fcd57][i:61f96fcd57]Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration. [/i:61f96fcd57][/u:61f96fcd57]
Ole...Ole who? LOL. Don't know how to answer this one. The ones that bring up Ole and are obsessed with him are the ones that are keeping this particular message board indundated with posts. I've heard nothing but Ole this Ole that...blah blah.


[u:61f96fcd57][i:61f96fcd57]Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred. Instead, in the follower's mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused--as that person's involvement with the group/leader continues and deepens. [/i:61f96fcd57][/u:61f96fcd57]Oh please....to me, Ole is just an old man that started a group a long time ago. I agree with his teachings but he is NOT God or Jesus. He's just a man.

[u:61f96fcd57][i:61f96fcd57]Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as "persecution". [/i:61f96fcd57][/u:61f96fcd57]
I guess we as a group persecute Ole constantly then because I along with many others, criticize Ole at times.

[u:61f96fcd57][i:61f96fcd57]Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior. [/i:61f96fcd57][/u:61f96fcd57]
If anyone was a clone of Ole it would have been Doug. In my personally experience, Doug was a meaner version of Ole at times. Glad he found another spiritual home because Trinity was not for him.

[u:61f96fcd57][i:61f96fcd57]Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement. [/i:61f96fcd57][/u:61f96fcd57]
This is funny...when my husband and I were having marriage problems, we went to our pastor and his wife (Gary and Judy), still didn't work, so we tried Ole. After that, we were adivsed by Ole, Gary and others. "GO to a marriage counselor. You two really need help and we apparently can't help you with this." Is this a cult personality? Would a cult leader tell us to actually go and seek counseling and when my husband couldn't afford it for himself, Gary actually paid for a therapist out of his own pocket.


[u:61f96fcd57][i:61f96fcd57]Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supercede any personal goals or individual interests. [/i:61f96fcd57][/u:61f96fcd57]Don't really understand the question but if I get this right then Trinity has a yearly Thankgiving feast but we aren't going because we will be with our family. Some people missed the Tabernacles feast because they had personal plans. I don't go to Sunday Seders as much because it is the only day that my hubby gets off and we prefer to spend it as 'family time'.


[u:61f96fcd57][i:61f96fcd57]A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor. [/i:61f96fcd57][/u:61f96fcd57]Hey...did I ever tell you about the girl with the pogo stick....? I think that Trinity prides itself on their sense of humor. We say. "if you can't laugh at yourself then you take yourself too seriously." The Passover skits that we do yearly is nothing but making fun of people (in a fun and good-natured way). Ole just happens to be the butt of most of the jokes.


[u:61f96fcd57][i:61f96fcd57]Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader. [/i:61f96fcd57][/u:61f96fcd57]
We spend lots of time with my husbands family and their Baptists. They don't agree with some of our doctrine and we don't agree with theirs but we love each other immensely and I'm hoping to move closer to them soon. I have friends that have never visited Trinity and yet I still hang out with them often for Sushi!


[u:61f96fcd57][i:61f96fcd57]Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful. [/i:61f96fcd57][/u:61f96fcd57]No...Ole can be pretty judgemental and harsh. He can be an ass and he's been told that too. He even admits that he's an ass. Maybe he's mellowed with old age since Doug and Wendy left...who knows. I'm not here for him though...I'm here because I agree with the basic doctrine.


[u:61f96fcd57][i:61f96fcd57]Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided. [/i:61f96fcd57][/u:61f96fcd57]LOL...I think its the other way around with me. Since I'm a member, the angry ex-members think I'M the bad influence. Maybe not with Doug and Wendy since we've recently emailed but I haven't heard from any others. Kinda miss them too.

That's all I can answer for now. Please remember, this is according to my own personal view on the matter.

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cultaware
Hello NathanA,

Do not give your free will up to any one. You are on the edge. Ask Gary why he did not tell his "group" that a fire walk was planned at Rick's ranch. He knew about Ole's plans ahead of time. As an elder should he not have warned us? God protect us from our Trinity's sheperds!
Cultaware

Hello cultaware,

As far as I know, the firewalk thing happened one night. NO ONE was forced to do it and personally, I think it was a silly and juvenile thing to do. It happened...what? 17 years ago?!? For ONE night?!? And many came away laughing how it was just silly? I know some of the wives said that it wasn't going to happen again. Did YOU do it? If you did...WHY in the world would a grown man (or woman) do something so silly. Quite a few people didn't do it and as far as I know just a little handful of stupid macho men decided to try it on.

If it was a cultish thing to do, why didn't ALL of the members do it? I've talked to some that remember it and they just shake their heads and shrug with a little laugh as if they were remembering something they did when they were young. I know that one woman who didn't do it thought it was stupid, wouldn't do it herself and is still apart of the community.

If you were in your young adulthood, I'd imagine it would have been a fun thing to do. Heck...I've done stupid things when I was younger.

I know now that if that happened now, I'd put up a fit and say that it was just stupid...Of course, the elders are older now and I can't see a one of them moving that fast over a coal of fires..LOL

Cherenuff, I can understand your desire to defend and protect a place that you are a member of and that has helped you with your children. But how do you explain the large number of former members in Wendy Duncan's book and the Dallas Observer article who consider Trinity Foundation to be cultic and spiritually abusive?

I could understand if you thought it was just Wendy and Doug Duncan, but how do you account for the testimony of other members who left Trinity Foundation? Are they all wrong? Are they all just disgruntled? Are they all just people who couldn't cut it at Trinity Foundation?

I have to ask another question. Why would you want a leader or preacher who, as you, Cherenuff, said about your leader, "(Ole Anthony) can be pretty judgemental and harsh. He can be an ass and he's been told that too. He even admits that he's an ass."

Doesn't sound like the kind of person I would want as a leader. Maybe that's just me.

And doesn't the Bible say that the fruits of the spirit are love, peace, joy, kindness, gentleness, etc? It sounds to me like Ole's fruit is anger, arrogance, antagonism, abuse, aggressiveness, and antipathic.

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zeuszor
Yes, and I've been abused by other people at TFI too. It is a spiritually unhealthy place. When he found out that I was speaking to the Duncans, he squeezed me out of my job and my place to live, using BS excuses. That's for starters. He said that I had to move because the fact that I had savings, was not broke, and that my room above The Lair was "meet need only", meaning that it was reserved for the indigent. Well, he knew I wasn't broke when he hired me in the first place, so why is it a problem that I have money all of a sudden when I start associating with people that he doesn't want me to know? Why did he let me move up there in the first place? Robert Fox had a job and lived in that very same room for like two years. It must have been because his mother was Ole's secretary. So that excuse about I had to move because I had money was a lie. I wound up basically homeless over this. How come every time I would express that I disagreed with or did not understand something he taught, he would tell me that I have the mind of a brute beast and needed to repent? You'd never hear that in the edited, prerecorded Bible studies, huh?

I have a couple of problems with this. First, why are you angry about being 'kicked out' if you think Trinity is a cult. I'd figure you would be happy that a cult wanted you gone? Also, if Trinity was a cult, wouldn't Ole try to appease you and take your savings before making you leave? From what I understand and please let me know if I am wrong about this because I really don't know very much about your situation here.

You came because you were interested in Trinity's involvement in exposing cults and you needed a place to stay for awhile. Did you pay rent? Did you pay for any meals at the Lair? Did you pay for electricity, water, etc? If not, then a group of people took you in, let you stay in a warm place without rent and fed you three meals a day. The room is for the indigent and those that need a place to stay while they ACTIVELY search for something else. You admitted that you smoked weed while you were there. Frankly, you were given a home from a church yet smoked pot when they preach against it. From what I understand you were asked to find another place to live BEFORE you spoke to the Duncans. Your earlier posts back this up. Remember...you were pro-Trinity when you left and posted as such but met the Duncans for dinner AFTER you left Trinity and they 'opened your eyes' so to speak.

Maybe I'm confused about the timeline but when I read your very 1st few posts it certainly seems to me that you left Trinity, was pro-Trinity for a bit THEN met the Duncans, read the book and now are anti-Trinity.

Robert was working for Trinity when he lived there and was fine just being the chef for the Lair. As for his mother..LOL.. his mother wasn't Ole's secretary as far as I know. She's actually living in another city and we all keep in touch with her still.