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Re: Moo referrals to a healer - what about confidentiality?
Posted by: happytown ()
Date: December 12, 2018 09:26AM

From 'The Manipulation of Spiritual Experience: Unethical Hypnosis in Destructive Cults' by Linda Dubrow-Marshall, Ph.D. and Steve K. Eichel, Ph.D., ABPP

"Some theories explain sudden cult conversions in terms of the social pressures exerted when a recruit is subjected to total environmental (milieu) control, while others single out the control of information flow as being the most important factor. Psychiatrist John Clark has proposed that cult brainwashing involves repeated inductions of trance-like states of consciousness, and that these states then become prolonged well beyond what we're used to thinking of as the average length of time in trance. Clark (1979) states that all the other characteristics of cult life (milieu control, the constant demand to be perfect, the constant expectation to confess transgressions, the belief that the cult's "truth" is absolute, use of buzz words and other language-loading techniques, deception, authoritarian structure) act together and contribute to a "continued state of dissociation." This state is marked by "focused attention" in which "new information is absorbed at an accelerated rate and rapidly becomes integral ... to the mind." The convert then becomes dependent on the cult for definitions of reality (p 280)."

"Many cults seem to induce trance using disguised, non-direct methods. The pre-hypnotic strategies available to, and often utilized by, destructive cults include singling out someone and giving him/her a great deal of positive, special attention which then increases compliance to authority, and the use of group pressure and/or the demand that one "take center stage" and perform something in front of others (who are expecting a specific kind of performance). This tactic, called "love-bombing," is almost universally employed by cults. Isolating a recruit in new and unfamiliar surroundings increases hypnotic susceptibility, as has been experimentally confirmed in a study by Dr. Arreed Barabasz (1994). Continuous lectures, singing and chanting are employed by most cults, and serve to alter awareness. The use of abstract and ambiguous language, and logic that is difficult to follow or is even meaningless, can also be used to focus attention and cause dissociation (Bandler & Grinder, 1975). Information overload can occur when subjects are presented with more new data than they can process at given time, or when subjects a re asked to divide their attention between two or more sources of information input or two or more channels of sensory input; this tactic is almost identical to the distraction or confusion induction methods in hypnosis (Arons, 1981)."


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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Horowitz ()
Date: December 12, 2018 10:33PM

Some native cultures or tribes have employed different practices or techniques to induce a trance to get one out of the mind and have some deeper experience of Self. But it’s truth it should not be too long and prolonged, one needs a curtain time to process and integrate it. Posted by Happytown: “…Psychiatrist John Clark has proposed that cult brainwashing involves repeated inductions of trance-like states of consciousness, and that these states then become prolonged well beyond what we're used to thinking of as the average length of time in trance (Clark,1979)…”
I am not against some deeper experience of the Self, spiritual trances or contemplative absorption of the mind because one needs to experience the bliss or spiritual happiness to be motivated, face some life challenges, and hold on to the Samadhi journey.
In the Mooji’s society, in the cult, there is a lot of people who are simply spiritual delusional, confused, and are not real the seeks of the truth.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: December 12, 2018 10:57PM

THis article is about an entirely different group, with a different set of behaviors than at Monte Sahaja.

However,much of it may seem familiar. The author was a high level member of this group (The New Tantra) and she tried to persuade the teacher to reform the group and eradicate the abuses. Ne marche pas. It did not work.

She writes of persons like herself who become interested in something wonderful and vibrant.

"If you are not aware of your addicted personality you will confuse intensity with intimacy."

This article is detailed, dense and repays careful reading.

Behind the scenes in The New Tantra.
A story of the manipulation, lies and control at the core of one of the worlds biggest tantra schools.

Bea Dominic


Here is a section that applies to most exploitative relationships and those of us who have lived in them - lived in the belly of the beast,


Alex even had a “cult police” appointed in TNT. He gave the title to a male student who was a professor at the University of Copenhagen. A smart guy that people trusted. -He will check us, Alex said. That created a false sense of safety. When I look back at it now it seems kind of absurd to appoint someone from within the cult to convince the cult members that they are not in a cult.

The appointed cult police even held and recorded a lecture where he tried to prove TNT was not a cult by using Robert Kegan's theory of adult development. Instead, he tried to show that the students were to blame for the accusations of TNT being a cult. Being the ones creating a cult structure around Alex. The recording was posted on youtube and spread within TNT.

What he did not do was compare TNT with Roy Wallis seven signs of a movement being a cult. In my opinion, TNT qualifies on most of them. He did not either explain how the dynamics of co-dependency are played out in an immature dysfunctional organization, creating a cult structure. To think that the leader himself has no responsibility for creating the structure is absurd and sounds like complete denial.

By the way, the cult police are now the head teacher in the TNT cult.

I recommend you to read a book about cults if you are interested to learn more about cult dynamics. Or watch the movie Holy Hell. That will enlight you on the subject.

And by the way, you do not need to be stupid to enter a cult. Everyone can become a victim of a narcissistic person. A cult structure is such a strong dynamic and almost impossible to see when you are in it. The reason for this is what is called the denial and normalization process. I will give you an example.

When I first joined the team I was in shock over what I saw. I had never seen anything like this before. So many crazy things and abuse happened behind the scenes. I actually went into freeze mode (a trauma reaction) several times my first weeks with the team. The “lower assistants” then worked as a bridge to get me into the system. Unconsciously starting the normalization process. Showing me how to behave in an environment like this by saying things like;

- This is how it is to be around a Spiritual leader.
- You better do this or that, or he will become angry.
- You should be happy you are one of the chosen ones.
- This is a once in a lifetime opportunity.
- You just don’t get it, dumb fuck.

Actually, no one gets this in the beginning… It does not make sense, in any way. Not before you have spent some time in the system and the gaslighting- and the normalization process has started to blind you.

After a while, you get so used to the system that you start to protect it. A new team member comes in and you are now the one getting them into the normalization process. They, like you, start to do things that go against their core values. Over time their adaptation and co-dependency get stronger, and sooner than they know, they are in it as well. Blinded by the longing to be wanted, special, necessary, important and significant.

This system is used by everyone involved. It is played out in the co-dependent “one up” or “one down” / better than or less than thinking. Cult dynamics are “Hard-Core” Co-dependency (read this article for more info). Everyone familiar with Stephen Karpman’s Drama Triangle of co-dependency will recognize the top-to-bottom hierarchy of relatively more powerful dominators and less powerful submittors; each dominator being submissive to the dominators on the level above. The “guru” stands at the top of a dysfunctional pyramid of increasing dominance from bottom to top and increasing submission from top to bottom. A dysfunctional leader always creates a dysfunctional group.

Or as Alex himself said it many times, you are just marionettes in my show. But we, in the team at that time, just laughed. This is very embarrassing but we could sit together and joke about people who criticized TNT for being a cult. We were so arrogant and naive that we even said; They do not have a clue of what a cult is…as if we knew, we were laughing our arrogant asses off from the very core of an extremely strong cult dynamic. Got to laugh at that now!

Remember, it is almost impossible to see that you are in a cult dynamic when you are a part of it. It can just been seen from the outside. To think anything else just makes you very naive.
Been there, done that! Even got the t-shirt.
A closed energy system
Dysfunctional relationships, like the one created in TNT with an excessive neediness and demands on others for emotional or sexual salvation, can be can be compared to a closed energy system. A “closed system” is one in which there is no energy exchanged with the environment outside the system. You get “everything” inside the system. This is especially relevant for schools that build big communities. In a community like TNT, all individuals (who are really non-individuals) relies on TNT to be the source of happiness, belonging, friendship, personal identity, life-purpose and meaning. You may even have all your money coming from the system as I had for example. The people in the system often become dependent on the community for their sense of openness and happiness.

When someone from the inside or the outside threatens this energy system it is like threatening the source of life, the “savior” itself. When a “threat” comes everyone gets even closer together and start to defend the system. You attack what is attacking you.

The teachings vs the teacher
This dynamic affects everyone involved. The closer you get to the core of the relationship (the team) the more affected you become. But, even if you are “just a student” you get affected, because everything, also the teachings is filtered through this dysfunctional system and an addictive personality. You cannot just go in and take the good parts, like many think.

Alex often said, focus on the teachings, not the teacher. Yes, there were some incredible teachings. BUT it is always colored by the giver of the teachings, the Teacher. Especially if the teacher does not embody some of the teachings himself. Anything else is impossible. Especially when they are given person to person like in workshops or living close the teacher.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Whtm ()
Date: December 13, 2018 08:02AM

Thank you! Yes, I saw this. The one person on the list in my state said she has no experience with trance and what happened to me. I may still see her though because I appreciate her honesty. She did refer me to Hassan in MA of whom I’m very leery and not just because of the exhorbitant fees. Then again, I have horrible trust issues now!

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Whtm ()
Date: December 13, 2018 08:08AM

Thanks Sahara! I think what’s bothering me most is the amnesia. I feel trauma but don’t know what it is exactly. I think the trances were quite deep as I’ve read that alone can induce amnesia. I remember him telling me what a good memory I have and it sounded sarcastic at the time and now I know why. Yes, I’ll take those excerpts please.

As for dissociation... I have lost time but it always involves me waking up from a nap but I don’t remember taking one and don’t remember how I got into bed. It’s also an unusually deep sleep. My phone would be next to me and I would have missed calls and texts and all sorts of notifications without waking. And I’ve always been a light sleeper. Is this a sign of dissociating?

I’d love to see the Clark article in full if someone has a link to it. I do recall reading something he wrote about prolonged trance states arresting menstruation (sorry if TMI). At the time I thought I had health problems but now I know why. Once I cut contact it resumed.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Whtm ()
Date: December 13, 2018 08:19AM

Sorry I feel like I’m posting in the wrong place and I assure you I know I’m being very self involved! I’m still learning how to navigate this forum. Corboy, in the last day or two you posted an email suggesting going to a university to seek help. I can’t find it now. Please direct me to it? I was in a hurry and couldn’t read it in depth the first time I saw it. Also thanks for all the old messages and Anticult (I wish he or she was still posting)...the information is very useful.



> Posted by: Whtm
> Date: December 10, 2018 02:22PM
> Corboy could you please explain trance and
> dissociation? Is this permanent and would the
> resulting state be considered “liminal?” Is it
> possible to undo?
> Recovery resources are available. In a discussion
> on trance and abusive relationships Rick Ross gave
> some information.
> Re: Trance in abusive relationships new
> Posted by: rrmoderator
> Date: December 06, 2018 05:35AM
> To whom it may concern:
> See []
> The Cult Education Institute has a section devoted
> to recovery issues.
> See []
> There is also a listing licensed mental health
> professionals that have experience helping former
> cult members.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: happytown ()
Date: December 13, 2018 09:03AM

Interesting document here. Margaret singer's "conditions for mind control"


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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Sahara71 ()
Date: December 13, 2018 01:39PM

Hi Whim,

you might like to read this post which I wrote a few months back which explains trance induction:

Sahara71 Wrote:
> It's interesting that you question the "Invitation
> to Freedom" video presentation which has become
> the centrepiece of the online Moo show.
> I went back and watched it just then. It starts
> out rational, but notice how Moo slows down is
> speech and talks more and more quietly as the
> video goes on? His pauses in speech become longer
> and longer, too. Towards the end, those pauses are
> really long... and he keeps closing his eyes, like
> he is getting some kind of divine inspiration....?
> I notice that the audience begins to close their
> eyes, too. They are mirroring him. They answer his
> repeated, boring questions as though they are in a
> dream, a trance to be more specific.
> This is trance induction.
> The long, long pauses, the voice getting softer
> and softer. Then Moo even has the audacity to say
> in The Invitation, "this is not hypnosis". It's
> hypnosis all right! Denying it won't do you much
> good in a court of law! He waits until people in
> his audience have already begun to get spaced out,
> before he says "this is not hypnosis" so they will
> integrate that idea into their distorted thinking.
> Moo gets his audience to repeatedly answer
> questions about the state of "is-ness" or
> "one-ness", while they are tranced-out. It doesn't
> matter how rediculous his questions are, the
> audience all reply in unison with soft voices
> "nooooooo". Like zombies!!
> He even asks "can the is-ness be manipulated?" The
> audience answer "nooo".
> Pretty scary stuff, when he is actually in the
> business of manipulating everyone that he can!
> Then Moo's voice becomes even softer and he tells
> them they have just had some kind of
> transformative experience.
> He starts to stare directly into the camera a lot,
> without saying anything, at this point. It goes on
> and on a bit; I didn't actually watch it all. The
> prolonged staring into the camera is part of the
> trance induction technique. It attempts to create
> some kind of intimacy with the viewers. No-one
> normally stares at you like that in normal,
> everyday life. It's unnerving, of course it is
> designed to be unnerving.
> Moo tries to tell us that we weren't using our
> 'minds' when we were answering his rediculous and
> repetitive trance questions, and this is supposed
> to lead us away from relying on the mind. "Leave
> your mind behind".
> How can you answer a question without using your
> mind? It's impossible. You need your
> can't function rationally without it. But you can
> function irrationally, without questioning
> anything, in a trance, which is what Moo wants
> from his followers.
> The reason this video is at the centre of the
> Online Moo Show is that it quickly converts all
> those people who are susceptible to trance
> induction. If the video "The Invitation" really
> did give us instant enlightenment, then we
> wouldn't need to go to any retreats, we wouldn't
> need to watch any more videos and we wouldn't need
> to buy the Moo books.
> We certainly wouldn't need to meet with Moo in
> person for 150 euros a pop!

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Sahara71 ()
Date: December 13, 2018 02:03PM

Hello again Whim,

I wanted to share these links with you. Firstly, a BBC documentary film where hypnosis is explained in depth:


And then there is this very interesting article:


The author does say that a type of indirect hypnosis can be used on people without their consent (they have no idea that they are being hypnotized) and that this is skill is dangerous, if it ends up in the wrong hands.

Finally, this article about how cults use the internet to recruit people, using trance induction in some instances:


(I am sorry that I can not shed any light on your amnesia and I am very sorry to hear that this has happened to you. I hope you will be Ok.)

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: December 14, 2018 12:44AM

Silences and prolonged gazing.

Someone has analyzed how these are used by John de Ruiter, a different guru.



The third function of de Ruiter's silence is that it accelerates the formation of intimate bonds between de Ruiter and his followers, especially when he combines it with extended eye contact. Joosse added that many of de Ruiter's followers, a good number of whom are middle-aged females, see de Ruiter as possessing "a mysterious aura".

In his article, Joosse wrote, "Silence is inappropriate on a first date or at a gathering of previously unacquainted people... (But) the cultivation of silence by the de Ruiter group permits a type of interaction that is usually exclusive to new lovers - deep, silent gazing into one another's eyes. Strangers to de Ruiter find themselves locked in an intimate gaze, and it is not surprising that (they) confuse the act that usually accompanies intimacy with actual intimacy."

Joosse believes that de Ruiter, by keeping his mouth shut, has found an easily replicable method that works on a number of levels to captivate his followers.

"When people follow a charismatic leader, the existence of the group depends upon the continued belief that their leader is somehow extraordinary or even superhuman," Joosse said. "Therefore, the leader must continually prove himself to his followers, and de Ruiter is able to achieve this simply by remaining silent."



Joosse believes de Ruiter's silence allows his followers to project their own "highly personalized" meaning into the answers they receive from him. Joosse noted that de Ruiter's followers often have a history of participation in various alternative religious movements before they settle into the de Ruiter group and are therefore more likely than most to find meaning in the vague messages that de Ruiter is known to express.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2018 12:46AM by corboy.

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