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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: January 17, 2019 09:18PM

Matthew Remski wrote this about Jordan Petersen, the masculinist motivational speaker.

But inside that article is something more interesting.

Remski explores how it might feel, might feel, to perform as a domineering male role model.

Corboy asks, is this how some might feel when performing themselves as gurus?

What Speaking Like Jordan Peterson Probably Feels Like

January 15 2019 Matthew Remski

[matthewremski.com]

Quote

Writing as someone who shares the bodily privilege of Peterson, I can’t suppress the visceral clues. I feel all the prickles of those in the latter camp. I but feel them from a “been there, done that” perspective.

Here, I’ll own my part in those sensations, and use them as a springboard for speculation. This may sound close to ad hominem. Hopefully I’ll avoid that by staying rooted in my own experience as someone who has also tried to be at the centre of attention by presenting many of the same tics I see Peterson use. Guys like us are all trained in the same school, you see.

I confess: I adopted the Peterson-body while reading from my poetry and novels back in the 1990s, as a classical music vocalist, while teaching yoga or meditation, and while proselytizing for the two cults that I was in.

In small ways these tics still emerge interpersonally when I feel threatened or I need to convince or triumph.

In and of themselves the affects are not evil, and I never had a conscious thought of wanting to manipulate people. And yet I built them into a choreography of persuasion that sharpened and expanded as it seemed to work.

Now I see these affects might sometimes work because they gobble up social real estate. I look at this very carefully, and try to invent ways of disrupting it. But I still feel them creep up, especially when I’m on a tense phone call.

Here’s what watching Peterson makes me remember about my own public-speaking body, back before I started to tone it down:

It felt exhilarating to speak freely and without stop.
It felt private, yet spotlighted at the same time, as though everyone should be forced to see the brilliance of my otherwise lonely internal life.
There was a thrill in beginning a sentence the ending of which I could not see, but felt the eyes on me draw it out. If the content strayed from the ordained topic, and no one seemed to complain, so much the better. This signalled that the listeners were there for me and not the content.
I could feel attention pouring into me, filling up the space where the words had flowed out. This happened without me actually connecting with the people who gave that attention. It was a perfect economy of simultaneous extroversion and introversion, without any mediation of contact or intimacy.
I used repetitive motions with my hands to not only keep myself in rhythm, but to conduct a somatic rhythm into the room that would obviate the stutters that occur through true dialogue. The motions were like martial arts gestures.
When someone asked a question I could sense how difficult it was for them to break into that flow. Instead of thinking about how I could make it easier for them, I waited for the bit of content upon which I could seize and re-enter my flow, feeling that that would relieve both of us.
I think that before I realized I was doing these things, to embody what I thought of as the comfort of mastery, while never thinking about who that mastery might be over, I could well have been in that camp that ignores Peterson’s intellectual fraud. It feels so good to love what he does with his body, and to identify with it.

Peterson has mastered the muscular ballet of inflated masculine intellectualism. He embodies the wish of otherwise liberal men who feel that speech is the only sanctioned public violence left to them.

He can be pipsqueaky but imperious. He can whine on stage and still be seen as commanding. He can express pain and fragility as an emperor of confidence. He can have his lobster and eat it too.

When Peterson quipped to Camille Paglia that men are disadvantaged in debate against women because social taboos prevent men from hitting women, he’s showing ignorance of more than civics. He’s showing that he doesn’t realize that his privilege plus his affect are already hitting women, trans people, or the scholars in humanities departments he wants to dox.

Peterson and I learned how not to hit people. That doesn’t make us non-violent.

I haven’t punched anyone since I was 12. I learned how to sublimate punches into sentences, and so did he. I believe that many of the young men who love what Peterson does with this body — “There he is! There! He! Is!” — love him because his affect validates that sublimation within their own bodies.

Peterson’s body tells them it’s okay to strike out from an avoidant bubble of self-fascination. It says that you can be as wimpy and whiney as you really feel inside, and yet still dominate. His body tells them that their own endless internal monologue of grievance is noble, smart, productive, and should be monetized.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Mara Fiota ()
Date: January 17, 2019 11:01PM

Sahara71 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> I've noticed that they are generally modern
> Westerners who just want something to believe in.
> As Horowitz says, a lot of them sadly have mental
> health issues. Even those who are sane and
> educated, even quite intelligent in many cases,
> only really want to abandon rational thinking and
> live in a delusional state.



you sound like either someone from norfolk,
or one of those elders in ancient Athens who talked about Socrates "corrupting the youth"




>
> Unfortunately, we live in very insecure,
> changeable and interesting times. People just want
> a quick-fix, they are not interested in looking
> deeper.


aaaah,don't give me that. all times were insecure.

what people are interested in is in ending their suffering. and there is a way to it. and it is not learning new stuff




> Honestly, half of them would worship a turnip if
> you put it it front of them. Seriously.


worked for baldrick

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Bullshit: the next generation
Posted by: happytown ()
Date: January 17, 2019 11:08PM

On the topic of casually-implied-lineage -that-can-be-denied-as-unimportant-when-necessary:

[www.tv3.lt]

This lithuanian interview is about a mooji-endorsed spiritual teacher who calls himself Ajibaba - "Daddy Aji". Real name John. 

Endorsed means that he is using Mooji's name to bottom feed the satsang crowd. The same is true with another teacher called Nitya from Poland. Most of their income stream is entirely due to this association with the Moo.

Here is Aji inappropriately manspreading while holding court in the highest seat in someone's living room some years ago. These days he uses a blanket, praise be. 

youtu.be/dvlv2BjENhE

An excerpt from the interview ( which contains some stunning Hello Magazine-style lifestyle shots of Daddy Aji):

"Could live on the street

"The conversant tells us that he is well together with his children, and it's always good for Jon to see them, and his relationship with the ex-wife flutters like his parents. Since John is officially unemployed, he does not pay alimony to his family. "After divorce, I was paid by the court for alimony, and when I became out of work - over the past few years - I can no longer afford to pay it. However, I gave my former wife a car and their lands. So I do not feel financially indebted. Moreover, I know that my spiritual path is perfectly for both their spiritual and other spiritual evolution, and this is often more important than personal well-being or physical contact, "says John. As the interviewee says, the money itself is completely irrelevant - because of this, he teaches people for the land, and people's benevolent sacrifices allow him to live smoothly. "I could live on the street free of charge, it would be enough for me to miss a few euros a day. I'm calm. I'm free from money, I have no claims to material life, "says John. A 38-year-old man has no need for a new relationship to develop - he does not hesitate to climb twice on the same rake, although he says that he is completely open to new relationships as anyone else in life. "I'm more and more pleased to find Freedom, which continues to grow in my perceptions that gradually reveal the mystery of this Life, and at the same time God," concludes the conversation with John.""

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: clearvision ()
Date: January 18, 2019 02:13AM

More on the subject of "False Lineage".

A big fact that the Moo followers don't understand is that Papaji's "enlightenment" was self-proclaimed. Ramana Maharishi never declared any living person to be enlightened, nor did he authorize ANYONE to teach.

So, Papaji himself is out of the running to "claim" himself in any lineage to Ramana... That certainly leaves Moo, Ganaji, Madhukar and many other Papaji-milkers high and dry in terms of their claims to being in a (non existent) "Ramana lineage"

Moo is manipulating un-informed seekers to believe in the narrative that he derives his legitmacy as a guru simply by having met (the unauthorized by Ramana) Papaji

Moo indulges in the heavy use of photos of Papaji, and Ramana, massive theatre around kissing Papaji's photo, and teaches his followers to chant bhajans to Papaji, basically brainwashing his followers into deifying, and legitimizing Papaji, therefore making himself (Moo) seem all the more "legitimate" by association.

There are 2 issues here:

The first is the false notion that Papaji himself is some kind of "successor" to Ramana, and had permission to teach from Ramana Maharshi (no one did!)

The second ingores the first, and thereby equates the stating that one "awakened at the feet" of (the unauthorized by Ramana) Papaji to be some kind of universally accepted stamp of enlightenment. It's just an un-provable story, "self proclaimed enlightenment" with a lot of pr behind it! Moo followers should do there homework, and research the disgraced Andrew Cohen to get a dose of Papaji's poor discernment and judgement in claiming that he (Andrew) was enlightened. Here's a good place to start: a cataloge of trauma and abuse

All this theatre and uninformed myth-making around Papaji has lead most of Moo's scene to believe in the impossible notion that Moo is not only enlightened but some kind of "lineage-holder" to Ramana Maharshi himself (via Papaji).


Here's a link to an article quoting David Godman (author of many books on Ramana) on the fact that there is no lineage:

Article link here

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Horowitz ()
Date: January 19, 2019 04:39AM

Mooji’s guru “lineage”:
The Mooji’s guru lineage continues further with other fast grown spiritual teachers, they also are narcissistic speakers with the significant spiritual immaturity. They leant it from Mooji how to fool people by the non-duality teachings and blow their minds by giving them a superficial experience of a pure awareness or a profound enlightenment, and atc. Mooji and his teaching disciples blow naive people’s minds by simplifying the spiritual path of removing the ego, personality only, and atc. After that, they promise the blissfulness of a spiritual heaven for everybody who is ready to listen to and worship them. As a result of it, they will become spiritual masters, grow into the cult gurus, and build up another delusional neo-advaita communities of followers similar like Monte sahaja ashram.
For example:
Mooji’s disciples who got the Mooji’s “blessing” to teach:
Ananta: [www.youtube.com]
Nitya Ananta: [www.youtube.com]
Ramdas speaks about his Beloved Guruji, Sri Mooji:
[www.youtube.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/2019 04:43AM by Horowitz.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Sahara71 ()
Date: January 21, 2019 04:40AM

I have just cut and pasted a few comments from the Facebook page Guruphiliac, which have been posted under the article that Clearvision shared with us a few days back.

The original article is from the Facebook page called "No Ramana Mahashi Linage", but this article is being widely shared.

[www.facebook.com]

A comment by Tim:

Nothing is perhaps more pernicious in the entire history of spirituality then the semi-truth that you are already enlightened and only if you (intellectually) grasped and believed this idea you could stop all seeking. The Indian sage Ramana Maharshi is often identified as the source of this school of Realization. This, however, is a total corruption of the sage’s teachings. Ramana Maharshi said no such thing. Instead, he advocated the path of knowledge called Jhana. Jhana is acknowledged as one of the eight paths of yoga or Realization.

His student Papaji of Lucknow appears to be the first of his disciples to corrupt the great sage’s wisdom. Papaji was widely quoted as advocating “doing nothing” as “you are already enlightened.” This corruption appealed to a certain type of seeker who was either tired, frustrated and or just plain lazy. Later, Papaji’s students Mooji and Gangaji, among others, spread this pernicious advice far and wide. It is the very heart of the entire “satsang” culture.

A comment by Chelsea

I watched a video detailing how when a man and his girlfriend were in group listening to mooji... and then she felt ill and needed to leave, mooji made a sarcastic remark to the entire group, implying they weren't true followers nor had the ability to hang. A shaming technique.

This man then began to track and notice that Mooji became "agitated" when the groups focus was not on him. This agitation is a sign of a spiritual teacher needing their students life force energy. This shows up as a craving, a dependency, signaling how the leader needs their followers more than the followers need the leader of the movement.

A comment by David:

I met one of his (Mooji's) ex followers in the summer - she was tortured beyond belief - literally in PTSD / yay Sri Tony Moo / you’re such a master

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HWL Poonja as described by Andrew Cohen's mother
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: January 22, 2019 04:25AM

Luna Tarlo, mother of Andrew Cohen, had the opportunity to observe HWL Poonja right after Poonja declared that Andrew Cohen was enlightened, and then told Cohen to go out and 'Start a revolution amongst the young!"

Andrew Cohen summoned his mother to India right after Poonja zapped him.

In 1997, Luna Tarlo published a memoir, entitled The Mother of God.

(Andrew Cohen had claimed to be God.)

Here are some excerpts.

Here is Tarlo's description of her first encounter with Poonja.

Quote

"The next morning, Poonja knocked on the door of our room at about eleven a.m. He was unusually tall with strong features and intense dark eyes. As soon as Andrew introduced us, Poonja pointed at him, looked at me, and announced, "He is my son!" (Tarlo's italics)

"We all sat down and chatted a bit. Poonja treated me with such extreme deference that I had to continually control the impulse to look behind to see if he was addressing someone else. It made me uncomfortable, yet I was flattered by the attention. When he left, Andrew asked me what I thought.

"He has a lot of charisma, " I said "and he seems a very powerful man but we were together for only half an hour. I don't know him."

"Believe it or not, Poonja and I might be the only two people in the whole world doing the work we're doing" Andrew said.

This was so dumfounding I couldnt react to it. The only two? The pretension of it all sounded quite mad. Still I have to admit, part of me wanted to believe it, crazy as it seemed.

Luna Tarlo, The Mother of God pp. 59 to 60.


---------------------------

Next, Tarlo described meeting Poonja's adult daughter.

Quote

"In the evening, we went to Poonja's daughter for dinner. She and her family lived above their photography shop in a dingy apartment....The meal had to have required considerable labor. It consisted of numerous courses, each more exquisite than the last. After she'd served us, Poonja's daughter, a plain looking, shabbily dressed woman, sat at another table at the other end of the room as if she were a servant and not on an equal footing with us. The rest of the family was out of sight.

Andrew had informed me that Poonja's daughter had been enlightened by Ramana Maharshi years before.

We ate in silence.
"You say she's enlightened?" I asked Andrew later.
"Yes, I told you."
"But she acts like a maid. And she works like a dog, as far as I can see."
"She doesn't mind. It's her life. She accepts it."

(Luna Tarlo thought) "I didn't say anything. I didn't know what to say. I was aghast at my once tenderhearted son saying that it was all right for Poonja's daughter to live like that.

The Mother of God pp 59 to 60



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/22/2019 04:56AM by corboy.

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HWL Poonja as described by Andrew Cohen's mother
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: January 22, 2019 04:47AM

Quote

"After lunch we crossed the bridge over the river and found (Poonja) dressed in a white kurta and pajama, sitting cross legged on a cot in a long narrow room. I was surprised to see that he was sharing his room with a pretty, blond chic Belgian woman and her child, a girl of thirteen. The girl, perhaps bored with what was going on, was sitting on her mattress on the floor reading Gone with the Wind in French. I was told the Belgian lady had been enlightened by Poonja and was there to thank him. ...much later I found out that the Belgian woman's daughter had been fathered by Poonja."

Mother of God 79 to 81

Quote

(Poonja) considered Andrew ready to start a revolution amongst the young right then and there after just two and a half weeks of instruction. I'd never heard anything of like it.

How could you take on the huge responsibility of altering people's minds with so little training? I was puzzled by Poonja. Where did he get his authority? He was not part of a tradition that educated teachers. He claimed, simply, to have been enlightened by Ramana Maharshi.

(Maharshi, I was to find out later, had never authorized anyone's enlightenment or sanctioned anyone to teach in his name."

Mother of God p. 80

After Luna Tarlo grew disgusted by Andrew Cohen's cruelty, she left his group.
Another person who left Andrew's group at the same time had a conversation with an Indian born professor of philosophy who was teaching at Monterey College.

Quote

"Julie...telephoned Professor Moorty. In the course of a long conversation, Andrew Cohen was mentioned. Julie told professor Moorty that Andrew was a guru in the lineage of Ramana Maharshi and Professor Moorty interrupted her to say ---and this had surprised Julie--that Ramana Maharshi had no official disciples and no official lineage!"

Mother of God, page 252

Quote

"A lot of what Poonja said about Andrew was true, that he could not tolerate being criticized, that his disciples were afraid of him and that Andrew's notion of communal sangha life was for sheep. But the fact was, Poonja couldn't stand being criticized either. And he had shown himself to be a hypocrite. For example, I heard that he told a former student of Andrew's, now called Gangaji, and presently operating successfully out of Hawaii, that he had been waiting for her, too, all his life, and as he'd said, after teaching Andrew, he was ready to die! (She subsequently became Poonja's replacement for Andrew.

"When I met Poonja for the first time in India, he was a man in his seventies who, after many years as a guru, had surprisingly few disciples. I think he was hungry for fame, and when he met Andrew, he must have seen a golden opportunity to broadcast his name in America by inflaming this young person's impressionable mind with ideas of 'starting a revolution amongst the young.' Then, when Andrew proved to be unsuitable, it took him no time at all to find a replacement from amongst Andrew's disaffected followers. And his strategy worked. He is now regarded in America as one of India's foremost gurus!

Luna Tarlo, Mother of God, pp 286-287



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/22/2019 04:48AM by corboy.

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Re: HWL Poonja as described by Andrew Cohen's mother
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: January 22, 2019 05:01AM

Sam Harris on Poonja's flawed teaching

[www.facebook.com]

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Re: HWL Poonja as described by Andrew Cohen's mother
Posted by: clearvision ()
Date: January 22, 2019 10:03AM

Thanks corboy for the great information on Andrew Cohen's mother. It's great to hear more and more people realize that Poonja, or "Papaji" was NOT as enlightened as "Mooji", or "Gangaji" etc. like to pretend. It's been good for business, but the facade is fading.

The material on Cohen alone, (to me and many) proves that Papaji had zero discrimination, clarity, or skills of recognition as to whether someone was "enlightened" or not.

All those that came after Papaji prove this with the egotistic mess they made. Here's something from a person named Kosi, writing about Cohen and Papaji:

"This idea of instant enlightenment often leaves the ego very much in charge—the enlightened ego— that keeps patterns of suffering recurring even after the most profound moments of realization or high states of consciousness. It also opens the door for megalomania, or even worse, the gross physical, mental, and financial abuse perpetrated against students demonstrated by Andrew Cohen—a former student of Papaji."

Tony Moo's only claim to fame is his claim that his (highly questionable) "enlightenment" came via this Papaji character... Papaji never declared "Mooji" enlightened, but he did (in glowing terms) declare Andrew enlightened! If this link is any indication of what Papaji deems it is to be enlightened, then it's a farce to see Moo prop up "Papaji" as worthy of worship!

I just noticed a new youtube clip on Moo called: "Mooji" teaching followers to diefy "Papaji", then kiss his feet"

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