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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: happytown ()
Date: November 18, 2018 06:47AM

Just came across this staged meeting with Mooji and a few select senior members of the group talking about negativity online

[www.youtube.com]



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/18/2018 07:00AM by happytown.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: i yam what i yam ()
Date: November 18, 2018 06:58AM

Regarding the seating - at ZMar, there would be perhaps 8 or 10 lines of people that would start to form 30-45 minutes before the hall would open.

Then some Mooji crew people would draw short/long straws to pick the order that the lines went into the hall.

So there wasn't really that much incentive to start queueing really early. Because if you arrived late and were at the back of a line, but it was the first one picked, you would have a better seat than someone who was at the front of a line which happened to be picked last.

It seemed a fair method of crowd control. However I'm sure people felt that the closer they were to the front, the more they were in Mooji's energy field, so the bigger buzz and the more "enlightened" they would get!

I suppose SOMETIMES you will arrive early, get at the front of the line, and then your line will be picked first. So you get to sit right at the front, at your master's feet! So sometimes arriving early pays off, sometimes it doesn't. I don't know if it's intentionally set up that way by the Moo team, but it sounds rather like this:

[www.psychologytoday.com]

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: happytown ()
Date: November 18, 2018 07:52AM

Learned helplessness and the art of indoctrination :

[youtu.be]

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Horowitz ()
Date: November 19, 2018 10:45AM

Mooji spiritual teaching essentially devalues worldly life in gross and subtle ways and basically simplifies it into one main problem of the removing the person or leaving the ego-mind aside This position leads naturally to a common psychological pathology known as “spiritual bypassing or escapism” wherein one employs the spiritual teachings of non-duality realization like a only way to avoid and ignore the natural complexities of ordinary living, such as one’s emotional confusion, mental/physical pain, relationships, finances/career, health, morality and responsibilities atc.
The high subjective states and artificial insights into the non-dual realization of the true Self are in the most cases of Mooji’s followers premature, unreal, and do not bring any complex solution in the area of the all aspects of life, because the whole process of the development, acknowledgement, maturation, and integration of the human personality is simply skipped out, bypassed and overlooked. The entire process of the giving up the ego-person must be spontaneous and associated with the attaining of the summit of the personal life or the true saturation of one’s own personhood.
Be the way, Mooji is still in the state of the ego-person-development, he seeks for the false recognition as an enlightened being and a beloved spiritual master.
(inspired and partially compiled from the article: Why Spiritual Communities Turn Into Cult by Hanzi Freinacht, TH’s discussion there, and Shara71 above)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2018 11:06AM by Horowitz.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: SadGame ()
Date: November 19, 2018 07:25PM

Great article by Freinacht.
[metamoderna.org] thanks corboy for posting this link

It is my opinion that the greatest fault of moo is that he overemphasizes the absolute and our subjective relation with (or identity as) the absolute (i put the ingroup terminology in brackets). He Does this very consistently, also with Regard to himself, which is why It seems to Some people that he is inflating himself with god. Secondly, he argues that a path of devotional surrender is a helpfull path for Some people (Beings) , while a more philosophical of scientific path is more suited for others.

The combination of him emphasizing our identity with pure consiousness, i would argue that this identity is What heidegger calls dasein, the being that we are with the capacity and defining characteristic to understand its own being, combined with his acceptance of devotional surrender as a proper mode of spiritual pursuit, and also room for magical thinking by himself and his followers are What make it look like a cult. I must say however that throughout Reading the entirety of this thread, i am not convinced that mooji classifies as a destructive cult. Sure he is being worshipped by his followers, he has many flaws in his teaching approach in my opinion an many others, also Some people suffer negative consequenses especially in that they trend to withdraw from the world. But i am not convinced that this is the intended outcome by mooji, he often also explicitly advises not to give up Your job or make hasty decisions with enlightening experience. One of Sahara71 main points is that his satsangs are trance inducing and should come with Some from of warming, which i also find a reasonable complaint that should be taken seriously.
Also i am sure that he is pretty much in charge of the whole operation, and that he gets angry from time to time.
But is the organization geared toward exploiting followers? Is it destructive in any meaningful and structural way? I DONT think so, i am not at all convinced.

In that case Mooji is NOT A destructive cult!

I am sorry if i sound like an apologist, i guess i take up that role now, but honestly i am just trying to be true and fair.
Even reports from those who live or lived at Sahaja seem just to confirm that social dynamics around moo are cultlike because he is being worshipped but that he is a human being after all, i don’t feel they show malicious intent or coercion. Please correct me if Im wrong.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2018 07:28PM by SadGame.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: happytown ()
Date: November 19, 2018 08:10PM

> Even reports from those who live or lived at
> Sahaja seem just to confirm that social dynamics
> around moo are cultlike because he is being
> worshipped but that he is a human being after all,
> i don’t feel they show malicious intent or
> coercion. Please correct me if Im wrong.

It's not clear what the conclusion is here. You appear to say:
1. Dynamics are cultlike because:
a. He is being worshipped
b. but, in fact he is just a human
2. There is no malicious intent or coercion.

I agree beliefs are none of our business. As long as the reports of harm can be addressed/acknowledged.

In this case, harm reports have to be false in order for the beliefs to be upheld. And the shifting of focus to the "absolute" can sidestep pretty much any behavior. But ethics and the absolute are not the same playing field, and a closed environment with questionable ethics is one of the accusations here.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2018 08:14PM by happytown.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: SadGame ()
Date: November 19, 2018 09:25PM

happytown

this sidestepping of questionable ethics by the absolute is definitely a great threat and potential problem. The question i am asking is: is this problem actualizing in the moo group with malicious intent?

what questionable ethics are we talking about?
who, if anybody, is intentionally using the absolute to cover up his or her questionable conduct?
in fact how closed is the environment? from my experience not very closed, of course for the absolute inner circle who are heavily invested leaving will be difficult psychologically, but again, is this by someones explicit malicious intent? i dont think so.

if this problem is only potentially but not actually there, we might be a little too quick to be label this a destructive cult.

there is great trust in moo and harm reports will not be easily acknowledge by devoted followers, but here we have critical minds amongst us. what reports can we put forward to convince ourselves that moo's group intentionally exploits followers? I havent seen it.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: happytown ()
Date: November 19, 2018 10:46PM

I don't agree that conscious malicious intent is an indicator.

I'm sure they believe in what they're doing. I'm sure they believe it completely.

As rrmoderator stated, the question is not intent but behavior. And a lack of accountability for that behavior.

Some ethics issues I have read that may be more or less controversial:

- I think Mooji started with good intentions but has become corrupted by the fame, power, access to vulnerable people, and access to money...after seeing a crowd of people reaching out to touch is garments, people falling at his feet and carrying on, I knew things were really done. This was not freedom but a cultural movement, a cult of sorts. (Nsh999)

- In what other area would a sixty year old man leaving his partner for a much younger woman be accepted as being for her own good because she was too attached? It's ludricous. It'S weird how it seemed acceptable. Bringinthecat

- laughter is so effective as a manipulative and rhetoric device, (sadgame)

- Moo’s acceptance of personal devotion to him is in stark contrast to the impersonal content of his teaching and is hypocritical in that any personal story is cast aside as an obstacle to the realization of truth, except for the story of his personal realization of this ultimate truth and his embodiment of it. I think, if you meet the buddha on the road, kill him. (Sadgame)

- They claim that they are at the peak of spiritual conciousness and yet they show utter contempt for the average person. They show no humility and don't respect anyone elses right to be unique. (Yam)

-"Somehow he put us in direct competition with each to fight for his acknowledgemnet and most of us had no idea that thats what we were doing. I did not realize this until I left." From gururating.org (which is no longer under cyberattack I hear)

- he lacks humility, cannot just say that he is sorry for saying something that hurt peoples feelings (sadgame)

- Firstly Moo likes to control peoples lives, down to who they have sex with with. And because of this there are people going around to see who is sleeping with who. (Constantin)

- Furthermore Moo has two faces, one in satsang, where he is lovely and friendly, and then there is the other guy who is very bad tempered and can be callus, rough and will talk behind your back. (Constantin)

- It's so much Mooji's fiefdom, people are in and out dependent on whether he likes their "energy". (Yam)

- I don't believe Mooji should deny peoples persons or reality altogether. Sure ultimately we are God, but relatively we still need to eat, we still need relationships, we need shelter. So he needs to address that. This is why so many people have breakdowns once they leave Monte Sahaja. (Applejuice, a Mooji supporter)

- 1. Allowing people to worship him
2. His teaching style
3. Not speaking on worldly events
4. Not taking mental health seriously enough
(Applejuice)

- Is it healthy to have no other peers? No, I agree. (Applejuice)

- It also probably has corporate bylaws and a board. My guess is that Moo runs that too without any meaningful accountability. Again, someone that becomes an object of worship who is also a dictator would fit the criteria associated with a destructive cult. (rrmoderator)

- I noticed a video I posted about earlier which showed a lieutenant being publicly shamed has been removed. (Happytown)

- Moo and one prominent follower where both wanting to F^(&^** the same woman.
So in the end Moo simply kicked the guy out. Since reading these long threads memories come back to me from those first days at Sahaja. (Constantin)

- Then yes I have witnessed public shaming many times. (Constantin)

- Then: the safety issue is also true. Big red flags here. Moo follows no laws on the land and the whole thing is basically illegal, but because of the usual ass licking via the Mayor this is allowed for now. (Constantin)

- And then Samadhi,
I knew her myself and we were friends.She broke contact after she vanished. And the way it happened reflected badly on him and sahaja and this is why there is so much secrecy around it. What ever might put moo in ditch is always pushed aside. (Constantin)

- And then lets himself be celebrated as the god in person. (Constantin)

- One reason for my Anonymity here is the fear of back-lash. I have seen over the years that other people went through.
One man with family was kicked out for speaking out. He had a family and was working on the land to support his children. (Constantin)

- As if he was implying Moo was Jesus. Moo just smiled at him and tried to remain silent and then he did this thing where he be quiet for about 30 seconds or so and then he got up and left. I realized then that most people there considered him to be the return of Jesus. (Startingover)

- I felt bad for (the follower) because I could tell that he was lost but kept trying to pretend that he had it figured out. He was even willing to break up with his girlfriend there over Moo. I think Moo intentionally divided them. (Startingover)

- Backlash is about being kicked out and losing all the friends. Being shamed and financial loss. Also knowing that all these people would banish me with out going into a proper dialog. (Constantin)


And lastly the fact that, in my opinion, a large portion of this thread is full of obfuscation, mind-numbing repetition and dilution. In August there were 7 pages. In November there are 50, and yet very little new information has been added. These more specific things appeared when Applejuice unintentionally named and revealed the internal group narrative about one ex-devotee.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2018 10:50PM by happytown.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Horowitz ()
Date: November 20, 2018 12:39AM

I would define the Mooji’s cult more like a delusional cult with the “spiritual” leader who made his enlightenment up, who manipulates a lot, and who does not have any genuine experience of the true human Self. Some destruction tendency, I see for people there who suffer with some mental health problems and need more psychological or medical treatments. For a real destructive cult, I would expect more strict ashram rules and discipline, what Mooji is not capable of and it's not the way of his life. I would not exclude that Mooji’s followers has had some fun there on the traveling with Mooji, personal relations, sex, friendships, socializing, simple work, and for the Mooji’s simply worshiping and easy landscaping job, they get a shelter and one free meal a day. On the other hand, the spiritual attitudes used often in Monte Sahaja ashram like “no mind, it’s only the mind” is very destructive and the helping to promote Mooji in his false mission is destructive as well for everybody. Mooji’s cult is also a real business with paid employees.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2018 12:58AM by Horowitz.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Sahara71 ()
Date: November 20, 2018 03:33AM

SadGame,

I think what you are saying is that the Moo group are a cult, but not a destructive cult? Any adverse effects people experience from this group are unfortunate, but because there was no evil intent from Moo or his inner circle, then it's excusable?

I'm not so sure I can agree with that.

I think people have to be accountable. Leaders of religious groups (who very intentionally register as charities for tax-free status) need to put systems in place to ensure that people under their care are not being harmed.

The Moo followers are supposed to be beneficiaries of a "charity" that was set up in order to help them. That is what this group are claiming. They legally have a duty of care to ensure that no-one is harmed by their activities.

Charities have to be accountable. Full stop.

What bothers me is that this group happily calls itself a charity and takes over £400,000 of donations per year and yet does not ensure that people are not being harmed- if fact we have reports of public shamings, ostracism, trance induction, gaslighting, manipulation and duplicity. Not to mention a suicide. And a fire that was likely caused by negligence.

I don't think any of these problems are the result of "oversights". These problems exist because the Moo group are a destructive cult.

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