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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: July 26, 2008 09:13PM

Getting Out the Raid

Anticult wrote:

also, just want to drop into this a reminder...that virtually all of this research can be applied to almost ANY of these New Agey type antiguru Gurus who are out there today.

They use very similar methods, as they all learn from a similar playbook.
They're CONTENT may be different, it may even be aliens, Christ Consciousness, Hinduism, alleged Buddhism, Astrology, Atman, Psychics, or anything at all.

The content is the Belief System.

(And always always, look at room set up, whether you're allowed privacy, can sleep 7 hours a night, and have control over your own transportation and retain control of your cell phone)

Other words that should signal us to do anticult's examine-the-social-context test:

'Quantum' 'enlightenment; 'integral' 'revolutionary' '21st century''esoteric' and 'seating is scarce'

Especially smell a large cockroach (excuse me, rat) if the seating is priced according to proximity to the leader.

Here is a tip: If anyone writes something here that stirs up strong feelings, confusion or a 'this is wierd' reaction in the reader, use this as a signal to investigate the deep structure of what has been written. I dont have The Anticult's training, but still noticed some interesting things.

To add to 'helpme2times' vocabulary list...

CC wrote:

"Corboy - I have taken in everything you have offered and see your approach with me as helpful and instructive."

I felt oddly jarred by this, and then became curious about why I felt jarred. Because I was not under pressure in an LGAT, had had plenty of sleep, and had zero personal investment in the process (as in I had not spent thousands of dollars of money or credit and had no reason to justify this by convincing myself it was for a good cause and just keep my mind open and trustful...instead I used my feelings of 'Huh?' and proceeded to investigate.

Lets look at how I took CC's sentence into my personal laboratory and assayed its possible ingredients.

Overall, CC personalized what Corboy had to say. Corboy was talking tough about legal risks and what can happen to a hapless person who is sued by a person or that persons family(!!) if a facilitation process goes wrong.

But CC sought to personalize this, as if CC wants to have some sort of relationship with Corboy. (Whats next, flowers and chocolates?)

'I have taken in' -- Strange. Is CC some sort of an amoeba? Does CC have any boundaries? Why not write, 'I am thinking about this'?

Never mind Corboy. Dont waste time on me. For his or her own benefit, CC should go pay for an attorney and have a consultation. I wonder what our hypothetical attorney would say if CC were to sit there and say, 'I have taken it in?'

Two, lets look at 'I see your approach with me as helpful and supportive?'

'I see your approach'--what is with the 'I see'?

How about 'Your approach has been helpful. Or 'the information you provided is helpful'

CC is personalizing again. 'I see'--CC is personalizing again, trying to wiggle up nice and close.

Okay. In conventional english, one usually says, 'I see your approach toward me as helpful and supportive.'

'with' implies that CC and Corboy are in some sort of accord, when in fact CC and I are miles apart and do not agree at all.

CC appears to be trying hard to establish some sort of rapport where no rapport can ever exist.

Two, 'I see your helpful and supportive'

Is this 'your approach is helpful and supportive' --is this a catch phrase, something that 'Katydids' are taught to say when confronted by input that scares them or angers them or....threatens to rupture the entire idealization process that is keeping them in BK land, in Kastle Kockroach?

Its also powerful to be addressed directly by name, even a computer handle. Its another good reason to stay anonymous on a board.

(There are reasons why in many of the old initiation rituals the initiate was given a new name, to be kept secret, as a way to confirm and safeguard core identity during the stresses of adult life. To reveal one's true name was to give power over you into the hands of those who might not use that power wisely or well. )

It is interesting that despite stating that he or she is reading through the thread, our visitor CC directed close attention and addressed by name only the three most recent correspondants on this thread--moi, helpme2times, and The Anticult. Anticult has also had the great honor of having an earlier troll mimic Anticults computer handle--'anticultist'.

I sensed something was going in when CC directly addressed me. And that led me to look carefully at the deep structure of that sentence.

Must ask if people are invited to disclose what their nicknames are, or what pet name they were addressed by in childhood. Because I can tell you that if you are addressed by that name in adult hood, it is POWERFUL.

So be very careful if someone you do not know at all well implores you to tell them what nickname or pet name was used to address you by those you have trusted and loved. Its easy to structure this right in, because at most meetings, even ones that dont have a hidden agenda, it is now very common to ask, 'How do you like to be called?'

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2008 09:30PM by corboy.

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: helpme2times ()
Date: July 26, 2008 09:40PM

It is interesting that despite stating that he or she is reading through the thread, our visitor CC directed close attention and addressed by name only the three most recent correspondants on this thread--moi, helpme2times, and The Anticult. Anticult has also had the great honor of having an earlier troll mimic Anticults computer handle--'anticultist'.
I don't recall CC ever directly addressing me. In fact she has so far blithely ignored some strong posts I have made addressing her. Such as this one.

Btw, I call CC "she" because I recall a mention or two of a husband.

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: solea13 ()
Date: July 26, 2008 10:00PM

Looking back through this thread and trying to absorb some of the interesting material, it seems that we can't underestimate the ways in which these different groups really back each other up, both knowingly and unknowingly.

Katie tells you to 'love what is' not to trust yourself, your own identity, your own thoughts, feelings or beliefs.

Tolle does essentially the same thing. Reading Eckhardt Tolle 'helped' me through the most difficult times in my group when I had the most 'struggles' with my ego. Reading Tolle would give me a nice, placated buzz - essentially a kind of hypnotism, I think.

Reading Tolle would make me see the 'illusion' of my doubts and desire to defend my ego boundaries, which were constantly being crossed by the group leaders. I would sink back into a more comfortably numb state and it would actually enable me to continue in the group for much longer than I would have otherwise.

With Oprah backing all of this up, the odds are stacked against finding contradictory evidence and opinions in the popular mind. Some people might never be able to find a way out of the maze that is slowly being established around these New-Age Gurus.

It would be great to see a really good article in Time magazine with a more balanced opinion of what Oprah is up to.

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: July 26, 2008 10:00PM

This letter was written by a former follower of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. But some of what is in that letter may apply here:


What are quoted are some excerpts. The URL will give you the whole thing.

"Transcending real feelings that live inside me is not the path to anything but denial. These feelings don’t go away or get healed by transcending. You described it as a bore to drill through a mountain. Well, the mountain remains. What I felt inside the entire time of my TM life is now coming out - the pain, hurt, existential fear that you have no solution for. Transcending doesn’t do a thing but delay the time to deal with these feelings. "

"Your teaching is not the only way. Nor is it supreme knowledge. Nor is it worthy of secrecy or any special, sacred holiness. It is merely the formulation of a man who’s emotional wounds are so huge, he had to plaster his picture and name on everything - down to the smallest door sign. Your entire persona as an enlightened sage is merely a compensation so that you won’t feel your deep unworthiness and disconnectedness from life...

"Unfortunately, your strategic self, not your authentic self, attained enlightenment. This subtle but crucial difference has damaged the lives of so many people… The teaching of your strategic self is wrong. If you were emotionally enlightened, and not just strategically enlightened, you would stop being Maharish immediately. You would take your picture and name off of everything. You would apologize to all your followers and send them to psychologists, psychiatrists and emotional healers for real help. "

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: helpme2times ()
Date: July 26, 2008 10:05PM

We would all fall over ourselves to 'volunteer' to work seminars. We would all write these cloying, sickly sweet letters to the Guru, telling him that as lowly, worthless students we didn't really deserve to work for him but we would do the very best we could to serve to the best of our 'small capacity'.

Then we would work these hellish seminars; long, miserable 12 or 13 hour days completely for free. Instead of our tireless help being welcomed and appreciated, we would be yelled at ruthlessly. At certain times various of us would be humiliated in front of the other staff for even the smallest mistakes.
When JJ was participating in this thread, she talked about how she eventually remembered that BK was NOT so loving or "enlightened" as she continually claims. Here's an example (bold emphasis is mine):


I remember that she gave a free public event (that was to be recorded) near the end of "The School." We had been with her all morning... she was short, impatient, edgy. But when she came out on stage for the public event... the cameras and lights were on and the applause was rolling, her demeanor shifted drastically. She became that sweet, gentle, loving "Katie" that you see in the pictures. I distinctly recall feeling put off by that, and then squashing my awareness of it with "The Work". There was "Katie" and then there was "stage Katie." And, boy, did she ever know how to put on a show!

I imagine that the real "Katie" is even more different in private.

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: solea13 ()
Date: July 26, 2008 10:07PM

My God. What a powerful letter on first reading. Thanks for that corboy.

helpme2times - I saw it all the time with my Guru's wife. She would love-bomb the hell out of people to where they were kneeling or weeping on the floor in front of her! They were often exhausted from travling to the seminar, struggling with money issues from coming up with $1,000 - 2,000 to pay and then this woman would hug them, stroke their hair, and graciously waive 50% or even the entire fee.

Then later in the day she would could turn round to me and give me a word or look that would have frozen hell over! One time at work she came to my desk and she pushed everything off it with a single sweep of her arm because I had forgotten to do some small task. I made sure not to cry about it in front of her because she couldn't stand 'emotional' people. This is what these people are like with their inner circle. I am almost 90% sure that Byron Katie would do very similar things.

(It came to where I couldn't stand to have her touch me. She stroked people's hair like petting a stupid dog.)

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2008 10:17PM by solea13.

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: July 26, 2008 10:24PM

Dear S13:

I didnt write it, just found it elsewhere.

As The Anticult has reminded us that the social structure/LGAT infra structure of these seemingly different groups is, under the surface, quite
similar, well--the inner structure of a charismatic leader's psyche is also pretty similar, no matter what the group or belief system.

There's the difference between public persona (supported by the staging, the lights, the audience build up, carefully done clothes and make up, and often tricks such as arriving late)...versus...the leader's private persona,
which can be quite, quite different--and throws tantrums in private and has to be soothed and parented by an entourage, who often hide the leader's private behavior keeping it a secret.

General human vulnerablity (we are all born helpless and are parented in the context of a huge power imbalance that preformats us before we are even conscious and we are wired to be social)..this is enough, potentially to lead any one into an LGAT.

We are not the will driven self sufficent atoms that hard core spiritual libertarians make us out to be..the ones who claim you're only abused by a partner, group or guru because of your own neediness. Feh. People married to that belief have not come to terms with their radical vulnerability. Unless you die instantly and at a young age, some day you will have to face that--in yourself or when someone you love is dying and is helpless.

But...IMO I have a hunch that among the pool of humans drawn by human vulnerability (and niceness) to LGATs or gurus, the ones who are selected for the gurus entourage and parent the hidden inner child side of that guru--they may well be persons from traumatized backgrounds who as children made excuses for abusive parents, rationalized thier own misery as 'character building' dissociated from their horror and sense of shattering betrayal, and identified with thier perpetrator.

Persons preformatted in this drastic manner might well be just the ones hand picked to become entourage members for a leader who is sunny in public and Hurricane K in private.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2008 10:29PM by corboy.

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and victimology
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: July 26, 2008 11:08PM

Its only a matter of time before some articles come out exploring and criticizing Tolle and Oprah, and the rest of it. Its just that the media is so degraded these days, just recycling celebrity news to cut costs. But even with criticism, they will still make their money selling fake-enlightenment illusions to the mass public.
Irony upon irony.

Also, an above post reminded me of the axiom that in jail, everyone is innocent.
Sociopaths always see others as "playing the victim", and a large part of them really believes others are "playing the victim".
They don't want to recognize that they are hurting other people, and victimizing them. They just see everyone they associate with "playing the victim".
Even when these sociopaths are convicted, and go to jail for defrauding and harming others, they still often see themselves as totally innocent, and that all those people are whining victims who were asking for it.

Its almost impossible to see the world as they might see it, but one can get a glimmer of it.
Bascially, they are often completely blind to their own sociopathic behavior and USING of others, and they see the after-effects of their own abuse of others, as others being whining victims.
They also usually have beliefs that support their actions, like "get them before they get you".

Of course, when they do finally get busted, they always BLAME OTHERS for doing them in, and then see themselves as the victims, when in fact they were the ones who started the entire thing by using other people for their own ends.

Byron Katie is a master at blaming the victim, she has elevated it to a perverse art form.
Just look at her belief system that goes so far as to say Hitler and the Nazi's were doing the work of a loving "God" when they were burning Jewish babies alive and committing mass murder infanticide . (see the Byron Katie book, Losing The Moon, and more info in this thread).

So with that belief system, she can literally do anything she wants, and its ok. Even a hurtful act, is a loving act. Its a sick and twisted path.
These types of Gurus often abuse one day, and then LoveBomb the next, and the closest followers respond eventually like abused puppies, seeking approval and fearing being chastised.

Its always those who do the victimizing of others who don't believe in victims, until they get caught, and then they see themselves as the victim.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2008 11:14PM by The Anticult.

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and victimology
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: July 27, 2008 12:15AM

TAC wrote:

"Its always those who do the victimizing of others who don't believe in victims, until they get caught, and then they see themselves as the victim."

This double standard is readily seen when a powerholder's suffering elicits endless compassion from followers but if underlings report incurring harm at the hands of the leader, or by following the leader's meditation practices--their attempts to bear witness are despised and treated as illusion.

Only the powerholder's suffering is considered worthy of compassion.

I've come to suspect that some even get some sort of inner thrill out of making excuses and defending powerholders who claim total power and zero accountablity for the wise and proper use of that power.

Its as though persons who dont have the nerve to go wild themselves, or face the risks of being moral outlaws defend the right of someone else to act out that fantasy for them--they parent the 'wild child' in themselves by parenting and making endless excuses for human potential leaders who ride the wild frontier as outlaws.

It may be thier outlawry, their refusal to get licenced to practice as clincians, their refusal to become responsible 'townsfolk' that actually attract those who have a sort of frontier mentality and never imagine that they themselves are unprotected in the even that the Lone Ranger guru decides to plunder their souls.

'The concept of 'cultic' milieu' developed by sociologist Bryan Wilson, is very helpful in understanding this conglomeration of alternatives. According to Wilson, there exists in Western societies, a milieu, which he terms 'cultic' where much that is rejected by the dominent culture accumulates--alternative therapies, alternative beliefs, and to some extent, alternative lifestyles. Both ideas and people usualy belong more to the milieu than to any specific group within it. Individuals easily shift their allegiances from group to group, and idea to idea, and ideas and groups are themselves linked to each other by a shared network of publications and venues.

(page 48, Against the Modern World by Mark Sedgwick, Oxford University Press, 2004)

But what isnt mentioned here is that the cultic milieu forgets that the mainstream society it rejects also contains safeguards that continue to be taken for granted, by those who think that mainstream society is relentlessly oppressive--ideas such as fiduciary responsiblity, and that powerholders ought to be accountable to an ethos of care in relation to those who trust in their promises and are influenced by their charisma.

What many in this milieu also do not realize is that the very teachers and gurus who seem to provide creative alternatives to the mainstream, are actually quite often covertly using all the most oppressive resources of the mainstream--marketing, getting people to sign waiver forms in which they sacrifice their rights as citizens to sue for damages if harmed.

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work), don't sign away your rights.
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: July 27, 2008 01:28AM

this is very interesting.

It really brings home why these LGAT Gurus FORCE you to sign their complete disclaimers for all liability before you attend their LGAT's.
That is NOT voluntary, you either sign, or they will throw you out into the street on your ass.

Because they know they are harming vulnerable people.

Even our new BK friend Cultcity, when it was mentioned the BK Facilitator could be sued for harm being done to people, she immediately said something along the lines of...well people claim victimhood these days and want to sue someone.

No, that is not the point.
What about the LGAT gurus using POWERFUL methods on people to bilk them of $20,000, or $100,000?
Byron Katie is allowed to protect herself with endless disclaimers, by the people on the other side on not allowed to protect themselves?
Katie protects herself from her clients AND from her Facilitators, she disclaims ALL CONNECTION with the Byron Katie Facilitators. Read the disclaimers, even though they use her name, she has nothing to do with them AT ALL. (welcome to the real world).
Byron Katie is holding all of the cards, she is unlicensed so she can roam the wild west, with no other oversight than the legal system, which is why they use those massive disclaimers.

If Cultcity were a registered licensed therapist, then INSURANCE is part of the cost of running a practice. Yes, sometimes people do bad lawsuits, but trained therapists also can make clinical errors. The insurance company deals with that, and either fights it, or comes to an agreement.

But unlicensed, untrained people, like the Byron Katie facilitators, who are doing an unproven and untested process called The Work, which has all kinds of hidden processes in it, and is being used on TRAUMA and serious DEPRESSION. That is extremely dangerous. That can easily trigger suicides and other very serious problems.
And Byron Katie wants NOTHING to do with her Facilitators if there is trouble, as she has said, she has nothing to do with any of them. The only one protected is Byron Katie, of course.

Any honest person can see what they are doing.
They target people who are looking for therapy, but they don't want that level of oversight and responsibility, so they pretend its not therapy. They then force people to sign away their basic rights, or they kick them out. They hold large LGAT's with free labor, so they can make MILLIONS a week in pure profit.
They then can use those millions to silence people who get hurt, who are generally vulnerable and without any resources, and who 99% of the time blame themselves and just vanish.
Any normal person with a conscience and basic self-honesty can see what is going on.

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