Hi JJ,

Thanks for your post - I don't know why, but my postings were delayed - maybe because I've just joined the forum. More than once the thought went through my mind that 'my messages have been blocked' but I just checked that out for myself and thought 'well, if they are blocked that's OK and I don't know that that is what has happened.'

I don't feel resistance to this forum, otherwise I wouldn't be on here - I did feel some apprehension on first introducing myself - never particularly easy to say 'this is me' and 'this is my experience' when it seems to be contrary to most people's experience - also reading earlier posts in the threads where people that have been pro-The Work or pro-Byron Katie don't seem to have gone down too well - and I can see why they haven't as well - attacking others isn't the best way to engage with people. Probably a bit more of my nervousness is knowing that I am capable of that as well - who isn't I suppose?

Even just looking at the previous posts had me seeing that if I feel like there's anything that needs defending then it's for me to look at first of all.

One of the places I have got comfortable is that I don't feel the need for others to do The Work, so I don't feel any investment in that or feel the need to defend it - in another discussion forum about The Work I realized that even if Byron Katie is a total fraud, lying, whatever, I will still use The Work for as long as it works for me.

That's where for me there's a difference between The Work as a process of inquiry and the rest of the stuff that can build up around people, organizations, etc - being in this forum has helped me to get even more clear on that.

With love and thanks,

Jon

Steve Salerno, author of SHAM: How the self-Help Movement Made America Helpless, is one our most effective critics of what he calls the SHAM -- Self-Help and Motivation -- industry. Yesterday on his blog he mentioned that he is preparing a post on Byron Katie. Some readers were so eager for that post that they started making comments about not only BK and "the work" but also Carol Skolnick:

SHAMblog

Steve is a witty and sharper writer and thinker and I am really looking forward to his BK post.

I just Googled Byron Katie to see if any of these threads come up, but I went through 5 pages and didn't see anything.

What can we do to make the Rick Ross site come up sooner when people Google Byron Katie?

Jon, you wrote:

I realized that even if Byron Katie is a total fraud, lying, whatever, I will still use The Work for as long as it works for me.

That's where for me there's a difference between The Work as a process of inquiry and the rest of the stuff that can build up around people, organizations, etc - being in this forum has helped me to get even more clear on that.


------------

Just a question; why did you come to this forum? You seem pretty happy with Byron Katie and don't seem affected by anything written on this board. But something brought you here. What was it?

If you explained this somewhere else, I apologize, I can't keep up with all the posts here.

Quote
Jon Willis
Hey there,

My name's Jon - as you'll see from my user profile. I'm intrigued by what's going on here -
I admit I don't know much about cults, as I've never been involved in one, at least not consciously :-)

I use The Work regularly (the process of asking the 4 questions and trying out the turnarounds), which I do see as something quite separate from anything that Byron Katie says. I've found it very useful and beneficial so far (been using it for almost 2 years now).

I've not been to The School or any weekend intensives - so far I've found that I have got enough out of the books, CDs and stuff available for free online.

I must admit when I first started with The Work I was a real pain in the ass for family and friends - constantly talking about it. It was similar to how I was with life coach training a few years before that.

Using The Work to look at my beliefs about other people, such as "He / she should do The Work" has worked for me, as I realized that was simply my own arrogance about what other people should and shouldn't do. It helped me to see what a pain in the ass I had been - with the coaching before The Work as well.

I guess it's human nature when something seems to work so well to want to shout about it - The Work helped me to mature around that. I do still share it with people from time to time, but from a place of 'well, this works for me.' None of my friends or family have taken it up, which I'm quite happy with - prior to doing The Work on these kind of beliefs I was much more in people's faces and obnoxious with the life coaching thing.

Anyway, that's my experience of The Work - in response to something that Anticult asked in an earlier post, I'm not a huge fan of it being called The Work. Feel self-conscious about capitalizing now, but for me that's just about avoiding confusing between work and the process called The Work.


I look forward to seeing what's posted.

Jon

~~Jon, well you have baited the hook - and I'm taking the bait, just curious to know what you think IS going on here?

~~ being a "pain in the ass" -- that might have been your first tip-off that you were getting involved in a cult!

~~you say you don't know much about cults? i suggest you find out real quick, as undoubtedly YOU ARE INVOLVED in one, if you subscribe to the teachings of The Work.

~~ nope, it is not necessarily "human nature" to want to shout about it. In my opinion when people feel the need to shout about things like this it is because they need validation that what they are doing is good. People seem to think that something is only good the more people they can recruit to a movement. It is the solitary believer who has true faith.~~ the fact that you feel the need to be on this site, which is a site for people who have felt harmed/abused/hoodwinked by cults and cult-like schools, tells me that you still feel the need to "shout about it"

you say: "I admit I don't know much about cults, as I've never been involved in one, at least not consciously" - yep that just about says it all, on some level you are unconscious, so please, sit up and pay attention, and I mean that in the nicest possible way. (without sound, it is difficult to hear my tone of voice, and i am not being sarcastic, i do mean that sincerely. you need to "wake up and smell the kool-aid!"

~~ thanks for the salespitch, Jon, but i'm not buying it - regards,Shad

Notice how Byron Katie get the ADULTS who attend The Byron Kstie School of Work Mass-Hypnosis ...to lable themselves as...

Schoolmates.
Schoolmates.

She wants to regress people to childhood, obey the Authority of Byron Katie, the Teacher-Mom-God.
OBEY, LISTEN, LOVE.

with Love, The Anticult.

(I am going to LoveBomb everyone now, like the BK folks do...)

Love, TA, with Love, Loving...give me all your money now...with Love, love love

Byron Katie's questions appear to infer that objective reality should be subjectively interpreted.

In other words what is objectively real should be reinterpreted through subjective feelings.

In the end what you feel is real, is therefore real. And reality ceases to be objective and becomes subjective instead to the believer.

Katie's Q and A keeps going round and round until you reach that desired result.

Is that it more or less?

Quote
Jon Willis
Hi JJ,

Thanks for your post - I don't know why, but my postings were delayed - maybe because I've just joined the forum. More than once the thought went through my mind that 'my messages have been blocked' but I just checked that out for myself and thought 'well, if they are blocked that's OK and I don't know that that is what has happened.'

I don't feel resistance to this forum, otherwise I wouldn't be on here - I did feel some apprehension on first introducing myself - never particularly easy to say 'this is me' and 'this is my experience' when it seems to be contrary to most people's experience - also reading earlier posts in the threads where people that have been pro-The Work or pro-Byron Katie don't seem to have gone down too well - and I can see why they haven't as well - attacking others isn't the best way to engage with people. Probably a bit more of my nervousness is knowing that I am capable of that as well - who isn't I suppose?

Even just looking at the previous posts had me seeing that if I feel like there's anything that needs defending then it's for me to look at first of all.

One of the places I have got comfortable is that I don't feel the need for others to do The Work, so I don't feel any investment in that or feel the need to defend it - in another discussion forum about The Work I realized that even if Byron Katie is a total fraud, lying, whatever, I will still use The Work for as long as it works for me.

That's where for me there's a difference between The Work as a process of inquiry and the rest of the stuff that can build up around people, organizations, etc - being in this forum has helped me to get even more clear on that.

With love and thanks,

Jon

Jon,

I know that Byron Katie teaches that if you feel defensive about something, then you need to look at that. I think that is true, sometimes. But, should you find yourself feeling defensive because people here are being hard on you, then that's probably why. It's easy to feel defensive when you're being shoved. I learned through my experience with "The Work" that there are times when my defensiveness is legit, and I need to not question it away.

Your posts may have been blocked because you appear to be a BK-apologist, or "troll." I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt here, and continue discussing this with you, if you're willing to hang in there. If nothing else, it may some educational value. However, I want you to be forewarned that I intend to be as honest and direct as I can be, and I'll do my darnedest to be civil about it.

I hear what you are saying about The Work being a useful tool for you, separate from Byron Katie and whatever else she's got going on. I think it's good to keep those things separate in your mind. At the same time, I think it would be wise to remember that Byron Katie is the person who gave birth to this process.

Had I never attended The School, I would probably still be using The Work, and thinking that it was a great, useful tool. I'm not going to hold you accountable for what you don't know and haven't experienced at The School. However, I would like to ask you to maintain the awareness that what we are talking about here is basically the destructive Thought Reform processes used at The School, and Byron Katie's role in bringing that to pass. In the big scheme of things, "The Work" is the focus of Byron Katie's teachings... and she makes that very clear. However, it also serves as a distraction against the other "tools" being implemented in The School.

The type of system that Byron Katie has set up is called a "Large Group Awareness Training" or LGAT. Her program at The School follows the format exactly. There are other better know LGATs out there such as, Landmark, Lifespring, and PSI. While they do not fit the description of a "cult" precisely, LGATs do employ the same methods of Thought Reform, and people suffer very similar symptoms and side-effects.

You can find a lot of good information on Rick Ross's site, or on other sites about these things. If you're really interested in carrying on a conversation with people in this forum, it would be advisable that you read up on these things. The people here will tire very quickly of hearing your stories, philosophies, and experiences with The Work.

As far as I'm concerned, there's no need to explain yourself or defend your reasons for being here anymore. You're here. Umm... fasten your seatbelt? You may be treated like an apologist until people can see that you aren't. Umm... you're not doing good so far. Although you're not attacking anyone... and I surely appreciate this... you do appear to have an agenda to prove to us that you're not an apologist... and apologists often start out that way.

Wanna' try again?

You said that this forum is helping you get more "clear" on something. What exactly is it? I'm not sure that I understand you correctly. I would appreciate it if you would expound on this.

Will you please share with us exactly what this forum is helping you get more "clear" about?

-jj



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2008 06:17AM by jj52.

Quote
rrmoderator
Byron Katie's questions appear to infer that objective reality should be subjectively interpreted.

In other words what is objectively real should be reinterpreted through subjective feelings.

In the end what you feel is real, is therefore real. And reality ceases to be objective and becomes subjective instead to the believer.

Katie's Q and A keeps going round and round until you reach that desired result.

Is that it more or less?

That is precisely it. That's the best way I've heard it described yet. Perfect. Thank you.

-jj

Quote
vlinden
I just Googled Byron Katie to see if any of these threads come up, but I went through 5 pages and didn't see anything.
What can we do to make the Rick Ross site come up sooner when people Google Byron Katie?

Many things.
First off, Google Byron Katie and a "negative" word, and see what comes up then!

But this is how to get a better Google ranking.

-each time you post, use full words, no just BK, but Byron Katie, and full names and words, those are KEYWORDS. And fill in a good descriptive TITLE to each post you make!

-LINKS LINKS LINKS: each person needs to go and post some links to these threads, on other message forums, blog comments, everywhere. Make 1-3 new links each day before you read the forum,or something like that.
Link to the main page, or a specific post. You can get the link to the specific post by pressing on the DATE in the post.
Then make those LINKS and use good cross-posted keywords in the link, that contain Byron Katie, and the specific detail. Once there are 100 links to this forum, then it may appear. BUT, Byron Katie has her Katie-bots doing this to, of course.

some good words appear to be- - which is how someone might type it in.
- Byron Katie scam?
- Byron Katie cult?
- Byron Katie weird?
- Byron Katie hypnosis
-Byron katie SHAM
-etc

For example, post to Factnet, to other skeptical forums...

BIG NAME BLOGS. If some big name blogs cover it, that's good. already there are a few links out there.

Google Blog Search, search for Byron Katie blogs here, and make some comments!!
[www.google.com]

Search Google and Google blogs, for Byron Katie and various keywords, and help people.
[www.google.com]

So I would say, the way to help more people, is more linking, more posting, more excerpts and cross-posting, etc. Over time it can really help people. They can sit at home and think about things.
For example, search for PSI SEMINARS. [www.google.com]


Isn't this about trying to get the word out, and get some education into the public about the dangerous effects of these programs?
There is not near ENOUGH linking and excerpt cross-posting going on about this subject in general. Nowhere near enough.

It is going to help the public much more if folks even just make 2 new links or excerpt cross-posts each day, to blogs, other chat-forums, anywhere. Hey, if 10 new links were made each day by a handful of people, word gets out. (groups like BK organize that stuff like crazy)

As a matter of fact, all the cross-posting and linking will help HUNDREDS of people for years to come. Even thousands of people. For years people will read it. Cross-posting fair-use excerpts for analysis is legal and moral. Its totally fine, and its very important.
I say the MORE cross-posting and linking, the better. this is not navel-gazing...its serious stuff, and it helps people.
Its about doing good things to help many people!

If a person makes maybe 3 links and excerpts, etc, each day, within a month its all over Google.

the person who doesn't know about all the LGAT and mind control can learn all about it!
This is why most LGATS and culty groups hate the internet.
Now they are trying to control it by having their own people make a zillion post and links.

So to help real people, learn from other people, go out and LINK all over the place.
It can help people, it can even possibly save a life going down the drain to one of these groups.
Education,Awareness and Knowledge is their enemy.
Ignorance is their friend.

So post, link, fair-use excerpt, and who knows, maybe some real folks will be helped out.