Byron Katie repeatedly says that people ONLY need to question thoughts that cause suffering. So if something pleases you, if something doesn't cause you any unhappy thoughts... no problemo!

I can see any number of problems arising from such a mindset. For example, "I'm happy with my addiction to cocaine. It makes me feel good! I'll just question any negative thoughts that come up about it so that I can keep doing it. After all, my spiritual teacher Byron Katie says it's only my unhappy thoughts that are the problem. I'll just work on that and keep snorting away!"

Seems that on Planet Katie, being okay - nay, HAPPY - with ANYTHING is the goal. That's why she called her first book "Loving What Is". Nevermind a little thing called moral standards - or legal standards. Our ONLY problem is stressful thoughts.

Speaking of "Loving What Is"... there's a very telling moment re how Katie REALLY can be in regard to Loving What Is, as witnessed by the reporter who wrote that wonderful article in the LA Times, How A Self-Help Guru Is Born.

Watch along with the reporter as Katie goes against her own constant advice to Love What Is:

Quote

One day, Mitchell, Katie and I go to lunch. The restaurant we choose has a half-hour wait for a table, so we walk to another place. Katie is pleased: This other restaurant is the right one. No disappointment, because she always loves what happens. When Katie's salad arrives, she tastes the vinaigrette and crinkles her nose. She calls the waiter. Seeming like a gal from Barstow, she asks, "Could I have some ranch dressing?"

It is a relief to see even this little glimpse of desire in her. Sometimes getting what one wants tastes even sweeter than accepting what is.

Imagine that. Katie can't love a simple thing like vinaigrette dressing. I can just imagine far more important things she doesn't love. Not when the spotlight is on her. Seems like she got comfortable with that reporter and let her guard down.

Byron Katie is scaring me more and more as I continue to wake up out of my Loving What Is Trance...

Let's not forget that she had a facelift. How is THAT loving what is? She is a walking contradiction, yes.

Of course, at first she tells you (in the book) to question only the thoughts that cause suffering. At The School it becomes very apparent that the key to real freedom (ahem) is to question all of your thoughts, and to realize that everything is nothing.

-jj

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The Shadow
p.s. I'm glad you kept Issac, jj

Thanks! Me too.

I can see the differences between your experience and the one at The School. Not only did you give something, you got something... and it wasn't "something of value". It actually sounds like a very sweet experience... not one that would leave you wondering how you were going to get back across the country without and ID, money, or plane tickets!

Thanks for sharing that. The contrast is helpful.
Good luck at the doctor, Shad.

-jj

Quote
The Anticult

That Turnaround stuff is a sick mind-virus, I do feel very sad for all those regular folks who are going to get duped and sucked into this. this is a bad one, for those who get sucked in, and can't get out.
No matter what you say to them...they will Turn It Around, over and over. Its a profoundly perverse process.

You said that right. BK tells you that eventually The Work becomes automatic. I've experienced that myself. At the School, we trained our brains to automatically flip reality around. I'm still struggling to get it to stop... and just hang onto my thoughts for awhile. Doing the worksheets, writing it down, is a good way to train your mind to do it on it's own.

I remember doing an Assertiveness Workbook once... that was written by legitimate counselors and was very helpful. In it, you were supposed to write out a little worksheet for every encounter you had where assertiveness was needed. The idea was that the more you wrote it out, the more it had a certain impact on your mind, and the more automatic assertive responses would become.

I think writing out The Work is for the same purpose, but that's not what people are told. People are told that writing it out helps you because your mind will try to get away with stuff, but writing it out prevents that from happening.

You mean, my mind will try to tell me this isn't right if I don't write it down? But when I write it down, it will become more solidified in my mind, and I won't be able to escape it?

Talking to BK followers is a real mind-warp because they do turn everything you say around on you. Some will accuse you of things, tell you turn stuff around, but then not do it themselves. (ralpher) It leaves you feeling like you've been hit in the face by a bus. I remember feeling frustrated with people the last few days of the School, and not wanting to talk to them... because every time I said something someone would reply "Is it true?" and then pick apart what I'd said, telling me what I need to question.

They tend to all act like YOUR personal counselor.

Or your personal deconstructor, depending on how you look at it.

-jj

Quote
The Anticult
this begs the question...about how Katie and Katiephiliacs represent "stories".

If to her, everything is just a "story" and there is "no reality", then there is no just thing as "objective reality" or "truth".
So one story is no more "true" than the next story, they are both just a story.
So in that cosmology, even a story from imagination is as real as a story from somewhere else, as there is no truth, only the stories. So you cannot tell a lie even if you wanted to, its just a story, as what others call "true" is also just a story. So the truth and lies are both just stories.

So this means you can lie your ass off, fabricate endless stories for a living, and not feel guilty about it, as a story is not true, as there is no truth.
Solipsism and radical post-modernism.

Too bad they are both false.
Tell that one to the judge, and he won't buy that one.

But it does explain how someone can continuously lie like a sidewalk for years on end, without one shred of remorse.
Now THAT makes sense.

Perhaps her book should be called "Loving What Isn't".

JJ: "Perhaps her book should be called "Loving What Isn't"."

Bahahahahaha! That's great, JJ!

Anticult wrote:

".....
So in that cosmology, even a story from imagination is as real as a story from somewhere else, as there is no truth, only the stories. So you cannot tell a lie even if you wanted to, its just a story, as what others call "true" is also just a story. So the truth and lies are both just stories.

So this means you can lie your ass off, fabricate endless stories for a living, and not feel guilty about it, as a story is not true, as there is no truth.
Solipsism and radical post-modernism.

Too bad they are both false.
Tell that one to the judge, and he won't buy that one.

But it does explain how someone can continuously lie like a sidewalk for years on end, without one shred of remorse.
Now THAT makes sense."

This has been done before. Carlos Castaneda did it.

Here's his version-as reported by a disillusioned former disciple. Sound familiar?

[www.sustainedaction.org]


Erasing Personal Integrity and other ‘Sorceric Techniques’

By David Worrell

The important practices we will be discussing kind of go hand in hand, so I'm going to name them up front, so you can intuitively begin to see how they fit together. The main practices for discussion will be: erasing personal integrity, avoiding responsibility, being available and unavailable at the precise turn of the ego, and worshiping self-importance.

While I foolishly have enough confidence in my fellow humans to imagine that just upon hearing these important terms they will already know what they mean, I am going to briefly spell them out anyway, as to how they interrelate, and in the end it will be obvious how all these traits combine in the "perfect practitioner" to make up the "mood of a warrior."

Erasing Personal Integrity

"Morals" are not the concern of a warrior. In other words, there is nothing which should ever be considered "good" or "bad" conduct. The only concern is with energy, with one's own energy, that is. Whatever you may do --- intentionally or otherwise --- to other people is in no way your concern, just as long as it doesn't get you down or hang you up in any way, energetically. Remember, a warrior is like a pirate, using people, taking everything they want. And so if anyone has a problem with anything you do or with you just taking anything you want, well, fuck 'em. :-)

Of course, lies don't matter. You lie to get what you want, and to make sure that you get what you want, no matter what. Simple. Now, you might think that this could cause problems with people getting angry with you (if they find out what you're really doing, and hey, they may not because you are never to be open or up-front about your activities)--but people getting angry or hurt is not a problem, because if you have no personal integrity, no explanations are ever needed. Let 'em get mad. Let 'em be hurt. Big fucking deal. If your lies and deceptions and hidden actions cause other people to have problems--if others waste enormous amounts of time trying to figure out what you are deceptively hiding, or lose ground following trails you left to mislead while in the process of getting what you want--well, it's not your problem is it? It's really so darned simple: you get what you want, you take what you want, and if anyone has a problem with that, then fuck 'em. Above all, no one pins you down. If someone else gets "pinned down" in some way as a result of your actions, well that's their problem isn't it?

Avoiding Responsibility

It kind of goes without saying that if no one knows what you are really doing, then people are going to have one heck of a time trying to hold you responsible or accountable for anything. So you don't have to worry about it at all! Isn't that great? :-) Little by little you must create a fog around yourself, so that no matter what you do, no one can catch up with you to do anything about it or make you answerable for your actions. So of course you must leave everyone who knows you well, or tries to get close to you, and you never reveal what you really do, not to anyone. Sure this may hurt the hell out others and it may cause them all manner of problems and inconveniences, but no one can ever cramp your style again, and that's all that matters.

Being available and unavailable at the precise turn of the ego. See, once again, the important thing to remember is that it's always, always about YOU. So you come and go as you please, and simply (wimply) vanish whenever it suits you. You get what you want, do whatever you want to do, and then you get out of reach. Yes, this means that most of the time when others may need or want something, you are simply not there, but that's no big deal of course, because ... it's always, always about YOU.

Worshiping Self-importance

It should now be very easy to see that everything in a warrior's life has to do with their own precious self, and nothing but their own precious self. Not only does a warrior not give a shit about friends, or relationships, or love, but a warrior doesn't waste time on crap like how people live in this petty little world--the schools, the political systems, the environment, etc. none of these things can be allowed to take one second of time from a warrior's primary concern: themselves. As a warrior, your own energy, your own journey is literally ALL that matters. It doesn't matter how much you cheat, or lie, or confuse, or even fuck other people up--it doesn't matter who or what gets ignored or discarded or trashed or abandoned or used, as long as you keep increasing your energy for your precious journey.

As promised, the mood of a warrior should now be totally obvious, and can be very succinctly summarized. The mood of a warrior is: Selfishness. It is like the selfishness of a very young child, except that it is natural and beautiful for a very young child to be selfish, and as children grow they naturally develop the ability to empathize and harmonize with the perspectives of others around them. Thus, in an adult, the "mood of a warrior," the total selfishness and concern for oneself to the exclusion of everything else is really a hideously regressive pattern, developmentally equivalent to the moral sense of ... oh...about a two-year old.

-----
"I cling to nothing..., therefore I have nothing to defend"

I.e., I build nothing in the world for anyone but myself, therefore I have nothing to defend (except myself of course).

I am committed to no one, therefore I have nothing to defend (except myself of course).

I have accomplished nothing worth fighting for, for anyone but myself, therefore I have nothing to defend (except myself of course).

In fact, I don't give a shit about ANYTHING but myself, therefore I have nothing to defend (except myself of course).

I cling to "clinging to nothing" and other "enlightened slogans", yet still say I have nothing to defend, but what I really have to defend (besides myself of course) is ... my non-moral morality slogans and my self-image as a big bad warrior.

Yet another research resource:

Get, and read Prophetic Charisma 1997 Syracuse University Press by Len Oakes. Oakes is a research psychologist/clinician and after being in a commune led by a charismatic leader, he left, and decided to research how people become charismatic leaders.

Oakes was able to interview 20 charismatic leaders* and found amazing similarities in their life trajectories. All had difficulty with ordinary intimacy with peers, and compensated by becoming avid students of social manipulation/communication. Quite a few were in previous careers as entertainers, musicians, teachers, and in some cases, business.

(Several other leaders refused to expose themselves to scrutiny and declined to participate in Oakes study. One, who never met Oakes in person, presumed to tell LO that his life was meaningless)

All were risk takers, and learned how to stay on top of all that went on in their groups. They could talk their way out of awkward situations and learned how to identify even the slightest bit of hesitation in an adversary or potential recruit and then, throw that person off balance.

'A common manipulative strategy used by leaders in this study was an argumentative style that was calculated to subtly shift the ground of any discussion from whatever matter was being talked about toward some area of an opponents personal insecurity. In this technique, the leader observed the process of an opponent's conversation and identified some point of hesitency and uncertainy. This was not always a flaw of logic or error of fact; the conversation may have been on some topic about which the leader would have known little and been unable to detect such a mistake. Rather, it was more likely to be some personal unsureness on the part of the opponent, that the leader's exquisite social perception targeted.

'...Typically what was said (by the leader) was an observation that the opponent seemed to be "a bit steamed up about this" or was "finding it hard to say what this is all about." In this was, the opponent was invited, sympathetically and seductively, to expand upon the very point of weakness.

'Or the leader claimed not to understand what was meant at a particular point, perhaps even saying that the opponent was not making sense.

'This usually lead to a further exposure, and then another, until the opponent stumbled over his words and began to look uncomfortable. At thsi point a well time dismissive glance from the leader was all that was needed to intimidate, the other person being glad to have the subject changed to how he might redeem his soul or however...'

(Oakes, pp 89-90)

.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2016 10:28PM by corboy.

Well, now that we know Carol Skolnick's conversion story... I'd like to share my experience getting involved with The Work.

A woman I was acquainted with, Sherry, gave me Byron Katie's book on CD to borrow. Of course, it was one of those "You need this, take it" kind of borrows... it's not like I asked for it. Sherry was the member of a small cult-like group downtown, who worshipped her guru and was always looking for recruits, handing out free advice and instruction in spite of her lack of credentials, and was prone to angry outbursts that had no cause, from what I could see. She was one of those people that I usually avoided, and didn't want much to do with. So, when she thrust the book upon me, I didn't take it very seriously.

I put it on my bookshelf, and there it sat for over a year collecting dust. I was going through a difficult time with my in-law family, which strangely operates like a cult with the mother-in-law (a follower of Eckancar) at the helm. (I actually started learning about cults in order to know how to deal with my in-laws, and how to help my husband escape their grasp.) Mother-in-law had decided that my marriage was "bad", and needed to end. I was being literally attacked on all sides: my husband's brothers, father, mother, grandparents, and cousins were going through some pretty scary motions to try to convince my husband to leave me and "go back to his mother." I was being criticized, blamed, shamed-- even accused of being in league with the devil and of trying to destroy the family...very much like cult members would do... and I started to feel like I was falling apart. The attacks were wearing on me. I was pretty desperate for a way out.

Every time I tried to talk to someone about the situation, they would tell me to "try to get along" with my in-laws... but these people were not normal, and did not want to "get along" with me. Eventually my husband stopped having any communication with them altogether, and they launched a massive assault on me... complete with libelous websites with my picture and letters to people in my community that were full of slanderous garbage. Suffice it to say, I was desperate... and because of the Eckancar-style brainwashing I was enduring at the time, I was very vulnerable.

One day I was sitting here bawling my eyes out, and racking my brain for a solution. I was willing to try anything. I looked up and saw BK's book on CD on the shelf. I was desperate, and thought maybe it could help. By now, it's promises were sounding pretty good. I took it out, and listened to the very beginning... to BK's story about her "awakening." I pondered it most of the day. That night when my husband got home, I showed him what I had been listening to, and said, "There is something evil and wrong about this. I can't put my finger on it, but it's NOT right."

The next day, still desperate for a solution, I decided to give it another try. I listened to BK doing The Work with a few people. They seemed happy in the end. I decided to try a worksheet... what harm could it do? I started with something small... a misunderstanding with a friend. I came to see that I was at fault, and I hadn't thought so previously. I wrote an apology to my friend, and felt some peace. It took a few more tries before I was willing to try it on my in-laws.

Lo and behold, I discovered that everything was all my fault, and I was filled with a strange sense of love and appreciation for my in-laws. I wrote them apologies (which was offered by the in-laws as evidence that I was guilty of their insane accusations, and worked against me in the end.) I kept "testing" it and doing The Work on other situations, and strangely... it seemed to work. I learned that I was responsible for so many things that I hadn't known before, and suddenly felt in control of my life in a different way. I read BK's website, watched the videos, and occasionally would be very turned off by something she said. I would tell my husband repeatedly that something was evil about this, but couldn't identify what it was. Curiosity and the desire to keep feeling what I was feeling dragged me on.

A few months after the first time I tried it, I saw online that there was a School for The Work coming up in Los Angeles. I'm required to take continuing education to maintain my professional license, and I learned that I could get credit for going. Everything seemed to be pointing me in that direction. Above all, was this feeling like I absolutely needed to know what was going there. I couldn't ignore the feelings I had that told me something was wrong, and I felt compelled to find out for sure.

So, once there, I made a commitment to myself to comply with every single thing BK asked of us. When she said "turn in your cell phones," I didn't like it, but I was committed to finding out what this was all about. I surrendered to the program and "followed the simple directions" through and through. So, it was all pretty easy for me, I guess. I didn't have a lot of resistance to the process, which gave me A LOT of time to just sit back and observe. I journaled and read my books at night before I turned in. (Okay, that's the one thing I didn't comply with. We were told not to read or listen to anything that wasn't BKs.) I think that kept me grounded in myself. I complied with the aftercare program, and continued to do worksheets and exercises from The School for months afterward... we were taught that The Work could be done on past events, as well as present. So, I started sifting through my past and questioning everything.

I reached a point where the obvious turnarounds didn't feel true anymore... and I had to look deeper for what was true. By doing the Worksheets, I started to see things that I hadn't seen before... like the fact that BK was an "anti-Christ". Yep, that came about in my turnarounds. I also started to see how manipulative my in-laws were, and how what they were doing to me was breaking down my sense of self. I realized that The Work isn't supposed to work this way... but I had to find what was TRUE. And, this was obviously what was true. There were times when nothing even turned around.

It was around this time when I discovered that if I tried to turnaround a stressful thought like, "My mother-in-law is evil" to myself... I would break down into tears, and feel nauseated. I came to realize that this was my own way of letting myself know that... well, that my mother-in-law IS evil... and the fact that she was constantly tearing me down is what caused my stress. It had nothing to do with my thoughts. It was my body's way of saying, "Hey, JJ... this stuff is not in your best interest."

BK says that until you get to the point where you can see your enemy as your friend, you're not done with your Work.

Wrong. When you get to the point where you can see that your enemies really are your enemies and the cause of your stress, you're done with The Work.

I realized that if I were to see my in-laws as friends, I would lose my marriage, my home, and everything that is sacred and valuable to me. It's just not smart to call your enemies friends... and to fail to see how they are hurting you... and to let them keep doing it. It's pretty dumb, actually... unrealistic, and potentially harmful to your own well-being. (However, I realize how this belief could be valuable for BK among her followers.) I came to understand that what The Work was doing to people... was really messed up in this way.

Sort of like:"Someone raped you? Oh, he was your friend, can't you understand that? He did it out of love, and when you see that, you'll be enlightened."


So, I threw away everything I had from The School. I didn't want that garbage in my house anymore. (Clearing it out of my mind hasn't been as easy.) And, I broke off all contact with School participants.

I stumbled upon some information about cult-like families somewhere around that time. It was just a little bit of information, so I started looking for information on cults. I wanted to understand what was happening to me. I ordered books by Margaret Singer, Madeleine Tobias, Steve Hassan, etc. I searched online and visited every cult information website I could find to keep learning... because everything I learned made SO MUCH sense in the context of my in-law family... and The School for The Work. I shared what I was learning with my husband, and we have made a permanent clean break from his entire family. I have no illusions about this: they are a cult unto themselves, and my husband and I are getting out for good. Byron Katie and The Work would have had me stay in the situation, and "love" the destruction of myself, my husband, and our marriage.

In all my searching, I found this forum.

And now, it all makes so much sense. Now I know why I had that feeling that something was evil and wrong with BK. Now I understand what's happened to me. Now I know why I was so easily sucked in. And, I'm finally finding the solutions I was looking for all along.

I really needed to hear from other people who can see through The Work and BK's LGAT. At the School, there was no validation for what I was seeing and experiencing. This forum has been a great blessing to me... so thank you. ALL of you. Even ralpher. I'm learning more all the time.


-jj



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/29/2008 02:13AM by jj52.

I think is where some people who don't know any better say that The Work sounds like Cognitive Therapy. That is like saying a monkey and a mountain are the same as they both stick out of the ground.

Cognitive Therapy examines Thoughts-Cognitions, but in a very balanced and careful way. One of the things one does is look for Cognitive Distortions, and work to modify them. Like the list from Dr. David Burns.
[www.mental-health-today.com]

Whereas The unWork does the opposite, it tries to stuff your mind full of distortions, confusion, and much worse.
Byron Katie really appears to be doing an ABUSE of a type of waking hypnosis called Ericksonian Hypnosis. She does put people in a Trance.

Quote
helpme2times
Byron Katie repeatedly says that people ONLY need to question thoughts that cause suffering. So if something pleases you, if something doesn't cause you any unhappy thoughts... no problemo!

I can see any number of problems arising from such a mindset. For example, "I'm happy with my addiction to cocaine. It makes me feel good! I'll just question any negative thoughts that come up about it so that I can keep doing it. After all, my spiritual teacher Byron Katie says it's only my unhappy thoughts that are the problem. I'll just work on that and keep snorting away!"
...
Byron Katie is scaring me more and more as I continue to wake up out of my Loving What Is Trance...