I'm laughing out loud! That is so funny, to visualize Jesus taking out a manila envelope and having folks sign his disclaimer. "Should salmonella result, from the eating of any fish or loaves of bread, the undersigned...."

I like Anticult's advice: The only logical conclusion is to have nothing to do with them. NOTHING! I also like the idea of requesting copies of the disclaimer and having the offering party sign and date them. That's perfect!

My father used to tell me, when I was a youngster, that if someone made a claim that couldn't immediately be verified, I should ask them, "Where did you get your information?" Asking for true validation, and not just personal opinion or here say, will probably send most of the underlings packing. I suspect, though, that the higher-ups in the organizations are a little more crafty, which takes me back to the first admonition: Have NOTHING to do with them.

qd

Recently came across this excellent article about the unethical use of hypnosis and manipulation, which explains in detail what people like Byron Katie are doing.
It would be interesting to compare Byron Katie with this article, and see how many points match-up.
The article is 20 years old, and like I have said all along, Byron Katie and others like her are using techniques that are around 20 years old, and yet the public is still not aware of them, which is very unfortunate.
But this was the same time period when Byron Katie started out. Its very obvious for those who are aware of the techniques from that time period.

Please grab a coffee and sandwich and put on your thinking cap! This article could be studied quite carefully, there is a lot in there.
This level of explanation needs to be put into paperback books for the public, just explained in common everyday, non-academic language.


[www.dreichel.com]
Building Resistance: Tactics for Counteracting Manipulation and Unethical Hypnosis in Totalistic Groups
By Steve K. D. Eichel

QUOTE:
"In order to influence or brainwash people, the following methods work best: isolate them in new surroundings apart from old friends or reference-points, provide them with instant acceptance from a seemingly loving group, keep them away from competing or critical ideas, provide an authority figure that everyone seems to acknowledge as having some special skill or awareness, provide a philosophy that seems logical and appears to answer all or the most important questions in life, structure all or most activities so that there is little time for privacy or independent action or thought, provide a sense of "us" versus "them," promise instant or imminent solutions to deep or long-term problems, and employ covert or disguised hypnotic techniques. Motivation is an important issue. A subject's motivation can range from loneliness and mild depression to being at a point of transition in life; from searching for spirituality, altruistic relationships or deeper meaning to impatience with or resistance to "conventional" religious or psychotherapeutic routes of discovery".

- Manipulators often start with making minor requests. Getting people to perform small and relatively unrisky acts now will make it more likely that they will perform larger, more difficult and riskier tasks later. Corollary: giving in now to "minor" requests that are mildly uncomfortable makes it difficult to refuse more difficult and unsettling requests in the future (Freedman, Carlsmith, & Sears, 1974, pp. 395-397).

- Manipulators often seem unusually friendly, concerned and sincere. When people perceive that someone likes them or cares about them, they listen less critically to what is told to them and are also less apt to think negatively about the communicator (Zajonc, 1968). Corollary: "love bombing" (being made the center of attention and the target of an unusual amount of praise, affection, etc.) makes it hard to disagree or resist.

- Manipulators do not immediately ask for agreement, they ask people to "try it" with an "open mind." Getting people to behave in a manner that is somewhat contrary to their current belief system will often result in changed attitudes (Deutsch & Krauss, 1965; Festinger & Carlsmith, 1968). That is, acting on requests to "try it before you reject it" and assurances that "you can disagree with what you are doing even as you do it" often leads to changes in belief systems, especially if the subject is not overtly rewarded (e.g. by being paid) for performing the new behavior.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2009 12:14AM by The Anticult.

Interesting thread, and I agree with it.

Felt so irritated with Byron Katie's methods, message and marketing after I'd spent a couple of hours reading a new book of hers given to me by an acquaintance who believes in her, that I decided to post my first ever online review on Amazon. My review was very careful and measured - but highly critical. It was the first one on the site for this particular BK title when I posted it. A very few days after posting, I returned to the site to see if there were any replies. My review had been removed and there were several, glowing, reviews of the book in its place.

No further comment necessary, I don't think.

HOLY S***, Anticult! That is EXACTLY what Byron Katie is doing. I have yet to read the content of the link, but what you have posted is right on the money. Sadly, as you mentioned, the masses are not aware of what is being done to them. Equally unfortunately, our whole society (in the US, anyway) seems to be leaning toward the "try it and see if you like it" scenario. Does that go for drinking poison, also? I imagine there are some that taste just fine.

ThankGoodnessForThisS:

I also am more than a little disappointed with Amazon. This tactic, that you bear witness to, is getting all too common. There are those in the scientific community that have tried to point this out. There are certain books that are not science, but rather 'pseudo-science', yet Amazon has repeatedly supplanted their negative reviews with glowing ones. Bad Amazon! Bad Store! (as if they give a crap; it's about the money)

qd

These cults and groups know how to punk the Amazon system. They post on their internal message boards about a negative review, and then a group of them all complain about the review.
They may also have their company send a legal letter to Amazon, based on the Amazon criteria.

So some teenager working for Amazon is probably under orders to take down negative reviews when asked enough.

Just repost the review, and change a few words around if needed. Take out anything that might be against the Amazon rules. Complain to the Amazon manager...if they have one.
Amazon does have a lot of negative reviews up, and many do stay. Its a good place for a well-written critical review.

[www.amazon.com]
QUOTE:
REVIEWS, COMMENTS, COMMUNICATIONS, AND OTHER CONTENT

Visitors may post reviews, comments, photos, and other content; send e-cards and other communications; and submit suggestions, ideas, comments, questions, or other information, so long as the content is not illegal, obscene, threatening, defamatory, invasive of privacy, infringing of intellectual property rights, or otherwise injurious to third parties or objectionable and does not consist of or contain software viruses, political campaigning, commercial solicitation, chain letters, mass mailings, or any form of "spam." You may not use a false e-mail address, impersonate any person or entity, or otherwise mislead as to the origin of a card or other content. Amazon reserves the right (but not the obligation) to remove or edit such content, but does not regularly review posted content.

It is also easy to 'punk' Craiglist.org

All one has to do is advertise or post free ads on Community Discussion for discussion groups or meditation classes relating to some guru or spiritual entrepreneur/euse.

Anyone who posts warnings or describes bad experiences with this same group will get their contribution flagged down, because personality cults can so easily organize a rapid response team to flag down anything they dont like.

Warn all your friends about this trend.

yes, all these large groups do this, and are very organized.
They have professional sales people, who get up eary to think of new ways to spam/advertise the world. The best are covert viral methods, like Craigslist, blogs, message boards, email, and of course Amazon, and google rankings.
the best ones for them are True Believers working for free of course, posting testimonials.

Without checking, I guarantee you there are ebooks for sale to teach people who to manipulate the Amazon ranking and reviews. They trade positive reviews, and work to eliminate negative reviews.
They probably just claim the review is "injurious".

and hey, Amazon wants to SELL stuff, not not sell stuff.
But there are lots of negative reviews up there.

Just keep reposting the review, and once it gets enough sticking power, it may be there for years to come. Lots of people read those, and some negative reviews can stick.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2009 03:31AM by The Anticult.

hello all,

I'm so far at page 43 in this thread. Thank you so much for this debate!!!!!

I went to The School for The Work in 2005.

Has "the realease of liability" concerning the School turned up yet?

I will be happy to apply it (however the content might have been changed since 2005)

I stopped all contact with my "school-mates" over a year ago, because whenever I expressed concerns/scepticism they would do The Work (with me ofcourse:-)

Leaving The Work and the sick world of Byron Katie has empowered me and left me with af peace of mind I have not had for years.

I think I was lucky that I had a (clinical depression) during The School. That way I was not completely "open" to Katies brain surgery with salad forks! For me The School was a really weird experience,that left me with more questions than answers. Also, I never gave up smoking during the 9 days. I needed to smoke because of the stress that, this circus put on me..

I will be happy to share information, but I really dont know where to start. At the moment I'm still reading. Thank you again, reading this thread gives me so much inner peace and provides answers for questions I have had for years.

Hello, Garden of Even:

thx for posting your experience so far. Many people who have questions about BK are reading threads like this, and first-person accounts can help them make sense of it.

It would be great if we could get a post of the "the release of liability" in this thread. People have a right to read that well in advance of any BK event.

One note, you will see that at times emotions have gotten pretty "flaming hot" in this thread, so that is something to keep in mind. :-)

What you have posted to far is very insightful. The fact that you were not totally "open" to Byron Katie's soul-surgery would have reduced her ability to insert herself in your mind.
The School is designed to create more questions, and more uncertainty in people, as then it builds dependence on Katie, and that never ends. There is no end to it. Even BK says in print very clearly that she is looking for total lifelong commitment from people, that is where it can go.

I like the way you posted "school-mates". That is another infantilizing term that Katie uses to regress people hypnotically. Literally. Adults become like grade school children, and BK becomes Mommy Dearest /Teacher/Lover/Goddess. Hypnotic regression is one of the most common techniques in hypnosis.

Also, you experienced how The Work is a closed-loop system. You question it, and they turn your questions back on yourself. Its a trap, and that is how it was designed.

Even Byron Katie uses the phrase "come into my parlor" which is from the fable of the Spider and the Fly, which is referenced recently in this thread. Katie is the spider, and the people are the flies, and she is luring them into her web, and the web is The Work. Once a person starts with The Work, they can get lured in step by step, and not be able to get out. Its like mental quicksand.

But the way out is to dispute the foundations and the validity of The Work, which is done in this thread. Also to become aware of the covert techniques of persuasion Byron Katie uses, social influence, sales techniques, conversational hypnosis, and everything else.
Once you can see the techniques she is using, they don't work on you very well.

sounds like you are out for good!!

Hi again,

YES I am out for good!!!!!!! No doubt about that!

I will post the realease of liabitity soon!

Right now I am puzzled that I cant find some of the parlor newsletters I thought I had saved.

At the bottom of four parlor newsletters, was printed in very small letters a very detailed interview between Byron Katie and her husbond about her "awakening". Part 1, 2, 3 and 4.

I dont know why they are gone. I cant remember deleting them... Maybe I was "invited" to delete them after reading? Anyway, it was a very long boring weird interview, in minature print.