Wow. I see what you mean, having read the latest blog from a certain person. RR had said that this person had sent some "flaming" posts and I imagine those never made it on here?

I'm inclined to agree with the "snotty punk" assessment right now. Perhaps to be amended if anything changes.

Hmmm... I'd like to add... I know someone who contacted this person last year asking for a blog entry on Byron Katie. Word is he said something to the effect of "not a week goes by that I don't receive a request by someone to do a piece on her."

Another thing... someone claims they were dragged into the conversation here. No, they dragged themselves here.

Quote
quackdave
I apologize if my posts seem contradictory or disjointed. The time-lapse between my posting, regarding a given comment, post or idea, and the appearance of my posts sometimes are separated by a half a dozen new posts that I wasn't able to read when I hit the "Post Message" button. Such is the case in the last four pages, which have gotten quite hot, it appears. Perhaps I should use the "quote" feature more, since it might show a bit more continuity. Anyway, I'm glad the thread has gotten back on topic. Subversion, whether accidental or by design, seems to happen to this thread quite a lot.

qd

p.s. I feel it's relevant to this thread, so I mention that a recently banned poster has shown his true colors on his blog. He "sounds" to me like a snotty punk, now. How very interesting. Another principal, mentioned in this ongoing conversation about said blog, immediately sidled up to him, by way of comment. He says about Katie, " She seems like a very nice lady, and if she reached out to be friends, I would be delighted to have dinner with her." Links to this thread were provided, too. My take? I'm glad that this thread is being promoted; those that love the blogger will continue to cozy up to him and apologize for him, the same way Neale Donald Walsh's followers did. But there might be those who can actually think for themselves and read more than the last couple pages of this thread, and perhaps be helped.

I think I'm done for now.

Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2009 03:09AM by helpme2times.

hmm, I agree we should keep the thread on track, which is looking at Byron Katie and her methods and associates.

But as far as Steve Salerno and SHAMblog, as I have mentioned before, what has happened here has been miscommunication, going both ways.
[forum.culteducation.com]
Being more familiar with his book, and a little of his blog, he was trying to make a larger point, as can be seen as he called the self-help people "con-artists". [forum.culteducation.com]

Steve Salerno made a blog post about his perception of what happened.
[shambook.blogspot.com]

But unfortunately, Steve Salerno makes some errors in judgement as well, by saying that it was said in this thread the Byron Katie promoters on his website had gotten under his skin using NLP Magick, or conscripted into their service, which was NEVER said.
Of course, Salerno is not going to be duped in that way, as he has experience and training in these areas. After all, Steve Salerno castigates Tony Robbins in his book, and Stever Robbins does basically the exact same techiques as Tony Robbins, they had the exact same teachers.

The question was simply asked if 2 specific people (like Stever Robbins) who are/were promoters of Byron Katie's Self-Help business MAY have an agenda they were running. But he seems to have taken that way too far. (as he posted a picture of witch-burning).
Come on Steve, that is not happening, that is really an exaggeration, unless you meant it as a joke. As a matter of fact, if you read the thread carefully and patiently, you would see that you have been treated very well in the past, and even now the views on your approach is not monolithic.
There is no "us and them".
What seems to be the real issue is miscommunication from differeing styles of communicating, which then escalated. And everyone reading posts and threads too quickly while in a hurry, and jumping to erroneous conclusions.


Its very important to not allow personal emotions or insults to detract from the careful facts which have been laid out about this Byron Katie LGAT system.
Hopefully once the emotions cool down, and people can read the entire thread and the nuance in it, and think things through carefully.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2009 03:07AM by The Anticult.

Thank you TAC. Beautifully put.

I believe we can usually count on The Anticult as the 'cool' voice of reason, even in a 'hot' forum. This time is no exception. Plainly, the typed word can be misinterpreted and we have seen it here before, on this very thread. The subject is charged with emotion and it can get personal in a heartbeat.

Myself, I could easily have become a casualty (perhaps a fatality) of the Work and what it leads up to. So it IS kinda personal, sometimes. But only as personal as life or death.

qd

Quote
quackdave
Myself, I could easily have become a casualty (perhaps a fatality) of the Work and what it leads up to. So it IS kinda personal, sometimes. But only as personal as life or death.

Ditto.

Thinking now of the sad case of Rochelle Laudenslager, who according to a certain person just didn't do enough "Work".

[[url=http://www.culteducation.com/reference/general/general1011.html]Murder Suspect Claimed Self-Help Plan Helped Her[/url]]

this thread has flamed up a number of times, as its dealing with very very COMPLEX situations, which are highly emotional, and its easy to miscommunicate with plain-text when people are rushed.

There is nothing simple about what is going on here.
There are very skilled people who are literally playing with how large groups of people represent "reality" in their minds.

Steve Salerno was actually never accused of being duped by either Stever Robbins or Steven Sashen.
It was a more general question about POSSIBLE wider public perceptions due to assocations, and how it MAY be viewed by others.
Since 3 main Byron Katie people were involved, it was relevant.
Carol Skolnick, Stever Robbins, and Steve Sashen. Carol Skolnick even tried to use the SHAM book to defend Byron Katie, as mentioned before.


Stever Robbins is a very slick writer. Later when there is time, we'll take a close look at his responses.

But this can be used as the PERFECT wedge issue for those trying to create more confusion around Byron Katie.
Due to some personal disagreements, its easy to then make an OVERGENERALIZATION and try to dismiss some of the criticism of Byron Katie.
That is a very serious mistake.
This mini-flame situation, actually has NOTHING to do with Byron Katie.

To explore the issues of Byron Katie, people can read the participant reports, and Janaki's blog, and the hundreds of other pages of information and analysis.

But just watch, as those who are trying to paint themselves as having nothing to do with Byron Katie, try to turn a personal disagreement, into a sweeping overgeneralization, to try and dismiss the criticism of Byron Katie. That has been tried before.
They even tried to smear Janaki, instead of dealing with the very specific details of her comments on her blog. [janakisstory.wordpress.com]
They can't deal with the facts, so they try to do an overgeneralized smear-tactic, to short-circuit people's thinking processes.


So ironically, the question raised about what was the purpose of Stever Robbins and Steven Sashen posting on that blog, may have answered itself in how this has played out so far.

You are not going to see Stever Robbins make posts anywhere, where he is challenged for the methods he uses on his clients and the public.
Old-School NLPers like Stever Robbins are used to dealing with people in the public who are completely ignorant of the depths of what is taught in advanced NLP-style persuasion. So he can try to play-innocent, and act like he is Mr Email Organizer...uh...not quite.
Anyone can see that Stever Robbins starts with your Email, and then moves into all the other products he sells, and later getting into all the nested loops, and metaphors, and all that other complex stuff, taught in PERSUASION ENGINEERING.
Its funny, as at the same time he is selling these products, he is trying to play-act that he is innocent. Sure, most people buy it, but not those who understand how it works.
All it takes is some basic research. (but don't buy any of his products of course).


But as far as this recent Flame-Up, again, it will be used to try and deflect away from the facts and extensive research into the methods of Byron Katie. Pretty standard.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2009 05:27AM by The Anticult.

This could be some kind of record: between yesterday morning and today, this thread received 424 page views!

Its somewhat morbidly fascinating how anything to do with Byron Katie turns so toxic and radioactive.
Why would such an over-the-top flame-out occur? Hard to say for sure.

But one thing that is interesting, is how so many posts around Byron Katie move so quickly into being blocked and controlled.
For example, the Byron Katie forums do not allow any criticism of Byron Katie, and they have deleted and disappeared all criticism of her methods and behaviors from her forums.


As far as Steve Salerno, its hard to know why he has so profoundly misread so much of what was written in this thread recently, its very strange as its such an over-reaction. Maybe that will become clearer in the near future.
But if one looks at the recent post that was blocked from this forum, it was not even about Byron Katie, and it had to be blocked as it did violate the rules of this forum with direct personal insults, etc.
And then right after that, Steve Salerno said he would even allow posts from "Hitler" on his blog, and allows anything to be posted.
But then a few minutes later, he mentions that he's blocked a bunch of posts from his blog? Its hard to imagine that those posts were worse than "Hitler"!

But of course, that is a bloggers perogative, to block posts they don't like.
So perhaps whoever had their posts blocked, could register here and make those posts, as it would be interesting to see what was being said.


Why have Stever Robbins and Steven Sashen associated themselves with SHAMblog, and other blogs along those lines? That was the original question being asked.
It seems the answer is quite simple. They both try to position themselves as skeptics and Anti-Guru's in their marketing, to disarm criticism. But are they?
No they are not.
Stever Robbins and Steven Sashen are both in the same category and business as Byron Katie, as they both sell all sorts of "coachings" and products/services for a living, and make a lot of money doing so.
And they both use many of the same persuasion techniques to sell their own stuff.
Its a real mistake to take a "hands-off" approach to those guys.
Until recently, they have both been huge promoters of Byron Katie.

As mentioned, some of the most advanced sales techniques, are actually very simple. The top of the list of advanced persuasion methods, is to try and make your potential critics your "friend". How is that done, by mirroring their beliefs, the Agreement Frame, by flattery, even compliments.
Does it work? Yes it does.
Is a person going to analyze and critique the sales methods of a person who they perceive as a "friend" in the same way as a stranger? No they are not.
If anything, they will start to feel protective of who they perceive as a "friend".

So its amazing that a couple of guys who are salesmen and hucksters of so-called self-help products, have figured out the best way to market themselves, is to try to align themselves with other so-called Gurubusters, that is seen time and time again.
But it doesn't work everywhere, for example, if those same tactics were tried in other skeptical forums, they wouldn't last 5 minutes.

But its a brilliant idea, to present oneself as being "skeptical" and an Anti-Guru, as a way to disarm objections, and then once you have your foot in the door, you sell them your CD sets, and "Life Coaching" contracts through the backdoor.
That is also one of the most advanced sales methods out there, to try and make your customer also feel like your friend, using techniques to build Rapport with them. There are dozens of programs about how to literally Build Rapport, which means creating an emotional connection very quickly.


Steven Shashen:
Its amazing how someone who is a professional salesman, who is selling all kinds of highly dubious things, can try to play so innocent. Even at the most basic level, he is running a number of different sales tactics. And what about the Acai berry MLM thing? One could lists an entire string of dubious products he's been selling with more than questionable methods.
And he has been a huge promoter of Byron Katie until recently...what happened with that? Why now is all of that removed? Why were the hidden keywords to Byron Katie removed after they were mentioned?


Stever Robbins:
It takes a lot of stones, for a guy who has been involved in these areas of NLP persuasion for decades, to try and also play innocent, and pretend that Byron Katie is just some lady.
And of course he won't admit any behind the scenes dealings, as everyone associated with these groups at a higher level, are signed to non-disclosure agreements.
But for someone like Stever, who knows all this material inside and out, to try and pretend he knows nothing about it, really shows how low some of those in the NLP field have sunk.
But its also ludicrous and OUTRAGEOUS as well, as while he is doing that, he is selling and marketing countless products, and Life Coaching, and even selling some advanced products which purport to teach the very things he denies exist in the methods of Byron Katie.
The next step will be to take a careful look at some of the more advanced programs being sold by Stever Robbins, like the one Master Metaphors, as that holds the key to much of what is going on.


This is what happens when those who are running these persuasion tactics get busted doing it. Its always the same pattern.
Their first response is red-faced rage. Anytime one of these guys is running their patterns and you point it out publically, they get very angry.

Then, they just try to DENY everything.
This is why Byron Katie is so clever, she has played the idiot savant role for years.
Its pretty silly though, when Stever Robbins tries to do the same thing. After all those decades of being in this field, he can see everything that is being done, from top to bottom.

But they are caught in a double-bind.
They CANNOT admit that Byron Katie does ANY of these techniques, as she's supposed to be some enlightened idiot savant.
So all they can do is try to DENY everything.
Its so ludicrous, its like a child who denies they ate all the ice cream, when their face and hands and shirt is covered with the ice cream they just ate.

The reason that Stever Robbins and the guys who sell this stuff for living are so afraid, is that they know once the public and clients become aware of the techniques being used on them, they don't work. They backfire. So that's why they panic and have to try and create a smokescreen and create confusion.

Its similar to those who got hooked in with people from BKI. They try to turn everthing back onto you, and try to make you doubt what you see with your own eyes. Pretty soon a person can't even trust their own ability to know what is accurate anymore.

But thankfully, using the various critical thinking methods, a person can carefully scrutinize the evidence, and figure out what is really going on, and do so in a calm manner without hysteria.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2009 07:31PM by The Anticult.

ah, interesting. The posts that have been blocked from the SHAMblog were thought to be about Byron Katie.
But it appears they were posts about "members" of the blog, so one would assume that would be Stever Robbins and/or Sashen?

Here's the problem.
Those 2 guys SELL their so-called "self-help" stuff for MONEY for a LIVING. Its their full-time job.
They have both promoted Byron Katie in their business, and have certainly made a lot of money from that association.

They are no different than Byron Katie, or Tony Robbins, or anyone else, same thing. The subject of that blog is supposed to be about SHAM, which is that very topic!!!
So how can one block posts that question those guys methods?
What if customers of those guys wanted to speak up about their business practices?

So you see how their blogging association strategy has worked! Touche! How to win friends and influence people. The question from earlier in this thread has been answered pretty well. It works.


But then it then it somehow gets flipped into whoever made those comments that were blocked, are worse than Manson or something?
Damn, that is really strange stuff.
How can someone "joke" around, or even worse be serious, about these mass murderers and psychopaths who have literally killed people, and make those kinds of absurd comparisons? yikes.


Meanwhile, the REAL subject, which are the specific techniques of Byron Katie, all the complaints about her LGAT seminars, and the specific methods and sales techniques of Stever Robbins and Steven Sashen...zippo.

something about this ain't adding up. It might just be hurt feelings, it might be something else.

...back to BK on Twitter:

I thought that the whole idea of Twitter was to keep your friends informed about your whereabouts and what you are doing, sort of like a mindless chatter, just for fun. In reading the BK Twitter thread, I can see that all of her posts are an ongoing marketing strategy to promote either herself or her product. Most of the bullshit she posts there are from her Katieism booklets anyway. And I am also noticing what Anticult pointed out about the way she uses language. Her so called sweet and innocent invitations hold a silent command or expectation. For example this one:

Quote

Hi Tweeties! I love that you drop n to say hello this Saturday, 4:30pm, Ojai Theater, for a sneak preview of the "Mind Cleanse". Cu always

.

She doesn't say, "You are invited to come and watch this preview", or "I would like it if you dropped in", she says "I love that you drop in...". Subtle, yet so very transparant. It is still mind boggling to me that there are so many people who don't see through her tactics and strategies and keep buying all of the crappy stuff she says.

And then there are several statements that need to illustrate how happy she is all the time, and how she simply loves everything that occurs, and again the only purpose is to lure people to take to the work:

Quote

I'm Awake!!!!! I'm Amazed!!!!!! (aren't mornings wonderful).
Earthquake Ojai. Rocked in the arms of Earth as it quaked me, what a dear connection. I have been quaked, have you?
Good morning I think, I think. Was that "me" being thought? Just checking
I feel so amazingly good, so beyond well, that it seems like a shame to just feel it!
Hello family of the world, I am so happy to say to you that loving what is is the way life Works, that is what is Working, have you noticed?
Stephen and me celebrating our eighth anniversery in Santa B. with Eckhart, Kim, Marjorie and Henry. All a gift, dinner, cake, and flowers

But this one is flat out scary:

Quote

Just left Dr. Memet Oz & wife Lisa, what wonderful people, such givers. One man, welling up in his thank you, said, "I got it." That's one!

What on earth does she mean with: "That's one!"????? Does she mean: "We got him!"?????