Re: "Jesus Christians," "cult", Dave McKay, the "Truth Believers"
Posted by: The Whirlwind ()
Date: December 31, 2021 07:16AM

Well, Bryan Apollo, I have followed this group for twenty years now, and I intend to keep at it until Dave McKay leaves this world. Then the madness will be over.

All modesty aside, I reckon that I have researched this group more thoroughly than anybody else in the Western Hemisphere. I've put countless hours into it and have done my best to undermine Dave McKay's activities.

I know you better than you know yourself, Dave. I am not going anywhere. You must be reading this, and you must have figured out who I am by now. We met once, you and I, and you thought that you could trick me but you did not succeed in doing so. Fah Kyoo, David. :-)

Bryan Apollo, it'd be cool if you could find Christine from Scotland, the one who Dave was going to let die in order to spite Jon Ronson. I wonder what happened to her? Is she even still alive, I wonder?

What made you start paying attention to this message board again, Bryan Apollo? It's been ten years!

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2021 07:19AM by The Whirlwind.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: "Jesus Christians," "cult", Dave McKay, the "Truth Believers"
Posted by: The Whirlwind ()
Date: December 31, 2021 07:22AM

Bryan Apollo:

Dave can be demonstrated as a fraud with respect to his account of his supposed COG days, which I shall now demonstrate to be largely fictitious, taking into consideration of course the fact that COG did not keep records. There are so many holes in Dave’s story, in the time lines, that when one takes a closer look that the only conclusion that one can logically come up with is that Dave is pretty much lying about it all, 98% anyway.

If one studies an old COG publication called the Book of Remembrance and knows what Dave has said about himself, one will quickly find many inconsistencies in terms of the who, what, when, where, and why of what the COG were up to in Australia circa 1975.

I suggest interested researchers look into the Book of Remembrance in checking up on McKay’s story, esp. the names of the early Australian pioneers. I have copies of both volumes.

However, it's very difficult to conclusively prove beyond a reasonable doubt anything about the matter one way or the other, considering the fact that the COG did not keep records, and the records that they did have, they destroyed. But, I am as close to absolutely proving it as I can reasonably be.

It was Australia in the ‘70s; no records, loose connections, inefficient communication. The 70's were vague times there. Public and private records were on cards and in manila folders.

So the truth is that technically, Dave simultaneously was and wasn't a COG Shepherd. He was living too far from anyone else who was part of the COG at the time. He claimed 6 members -- his family -- and they (COG leadership) couldn't dispute that. Based on this claim -- 6 members -- he received the leadership material regularly for at least a decade and probably well beyond a decade. This is how he churned out all that COG-like material.

The important thing is NOT whether he was or wasn't officially a shepherd. Because like I said, he both was and he wasn’t, and the only followers he had at first were his own wife and kids.

The important thing to understand is that he learned how to run a cult from the Family DFO material he kept receiving.

To me, it's a lot like asking if a woman is pregnant: either she is or she is not, and "Well, yes and no" means no.

David McKay wanted to be around the COG/Family to learn from them and obtain literatures that he could use in order to find materials to present as his own, and receive instruction on how to operate his own cult, but never had any intention of subjecting himself to the rules and strictures of the Family’s structure; he would never submit himself to anybody’s authority and would never make a good cult member, no, he simply leeched on to them for a while and used what he took from the Family in order to organize and run the group that eventually came to be known as the Jesus Christians.

In other words, just as the COG/Family were doing “Invading the Churches” stuff in order to gain credibility, respectability, and resources from established churches and denominations, in like manner, Dave basically “Invaded the Family” to do the same for himself in an effort to form his own group. He turned the Family’s modus operandi, back on the Family, and later "Invaded the Quakers," once the Family cut him off from the DFO materials. I must admit, it was a clever move on his part.

To continue: prior to 1978, the COG Shepherds were all APPOINTED to their respective positions by the next-higher person on The Chain.

After Feb. 18, 1978, everybody in The Chain was fired (Berg supposedly felt that the existing leadership was dictatorial and abusive) and the new Shepherds were ELECTED in at the colony level by local colony members.

RNR is the "COG ruling" that Dave took advantage of in order to "Shepherd" his own "colony." They (COG members at the time) were all being instructed to tell the world that the COG was disbanding and that everybody was going their separate ways.

Of course that was not true, and was an attempt to elude law enforcement and confuse "The System."

In reality, they did really not disband, they merely reorganized in a more sophisticated manner and were underground for a while. But not all members knew this, some really were led to believe that the COG had broken up; the supposed disbanding was also a pretext for purging the group of certain members, but getting them to leave on peaceful terms with no potential conflict.

The Family was highly secretive in those days, and they still are; just like Dave is paranoid to this day, and rightly so. We’re onto him like glue.

There were two ways in which somebody could have been a COG Shepherd in the mid-to-late seventies: by appointment, or else being voted into that position by the local colony.

In other words, there were no self-appointed Shepherds. Yet, Dave claims to have done just that.

He says that he appointed himself Shepherd of his own colony, and it was really just him and his wife and kids.

See what I am saying?

For that matter, RNR took place in 1978. Dave (according to the story he's always stuck to) would have been out of the COG by '76, the year when the FF-ing was being introduced.

I have uncovered inconsistency after inconsistency in Dave's story. There are lots and lots, and lots, of holes in it.

1978 was also the year in which they stopped calling themselves the COG (because they wanted the world to think that they had disbanded) and adopted the name, The Family of Love, which was shortened to The Family in '82.

This was all the direct result of the RNR.

But, it is possible that Dave was one of the Shepherds who got fired, and then simply took his family out and continued as if he was not fired. But this would contradict the story of how they left because of the FFing.

Further, we know Dave for a fact to have been in the possession of DFO (Disciples and Friends Only) Family literature as recently as 1991 (probably well beyond), and that some of that DFO material was published in the Deakin student newspaper (called The Planet) in that same year.

There was a dispute about him using the material.

This is something I still want to follow up on, to get hold of copies of the old Planet newspapers. Apparently, McKay was dismissed from the newspaper, but won a $4,000 payment from them.

There was also an article written about Dave in the Murdoch University newspaper about the matter, which he was awarded $4,000 in compensation for.

In relation to that 1990's period, David also published the Baby Books and the Nappy Chappies distributed them. They even called themselves children of God, but with a little c and said they were a remnant of the Children of God.

See the big picture now? He's twisting the truth about his involvement in the COG; he’s lying through his teeth!

There is no evidence that Dave was involved in any pedophilic activities during the time of his direct involvement with the COG.

And he thought that we were so stupid and would never figure all of these things out!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: "Jesus Christians," "cult", Dave McKay, the "Truth Believers"
Posted by: The Whirlwind ()
Date: December 31, 2021 07:30AM

Bryan Apollo: please note the man in this video, on the bicycle, who is facing Mr. Rooney, at 13:28:


His name is Thomas, and he is the one who told me about Dave McKay and Jim Roberts' meeting in 1990.

In fact, Thomas was there, present when that happened. Thomas is also a personal friend of mine.

Gotcha, Dave. :-)

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: "Jesus Christians," "cult", Dave McKay, the "Truth Believers"
Posted by: The Whirlwind ()
Date: December 31, 2021 07:39AM

Bryan Apollo: tonight I'm going to quaff a dram of The Famous Grouse, in your honor and to your health. Yes, I imbibe a wee bit (for the sake of my heart, you know).

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: "Jesus Christians," "cult", Dave McKay, the "Truth Believers"
Posted by: The Whirlwind ()
Date: December 31, 2021 09:08AM

Members if the McKay group live under constant fear and are scared to death. Fear is what holds them in the "community." Dave instills intense fear in his members. Day to day life in this group must be difficult and exceedingly stressful because the members live in constant fear. Fear is the glue that holds them together.

As soon as I walked in that room all those years ago and met the group, I could tell that I was in the presence of a group of people who were all in a lot of fear and who were being tightly controlled. I started feeling fearful myself, and left quickly. They just spooked me.

The McKay group is little more than the McKay Family Business, and Dave himself is really just a piece of shit, frankly.

The way I see it, the members of the McKay group really do not know what they believe, other than that 1) They are personally and spiritually superior to the rest of The Church, as well as to society in general and 2) (related to 1) that everybody is a hypocrite except for them. McKay group belief and world view seem to pretty much boil down to those two points.

The McKay group's members like to freely spread the thought amongst themselves that no one on the earth holds a valid view point on any subject except for members of their group.

Most people would (and do) respond to that arrogant idea by simply saying, “they’re crazy.”

I am of the opinion that Mr. and Mrs. McKay are very disappointed that they didn't become major "players" who got to lead a "movement" of their own.

From Armageddon for Beginners:

Solomon was a good man; but he can't hold a candle to Christ. Nor can anyone who was ever born. As Christ said in prophecies about the last days, people will find many replacements for the true Messiah. (Matthew 24:24) But when they do, their replacement (whoever it may be) becomes an antichrist. (I John 2:18; II John 6-7) The so-called Christian church would rather follow St. Paul, or the Pope, or Billy Graham, or, for that matter, Solomon, than to follow Christ.

See also The Fall of America, Just Do It! and Bin Raiders more for writings about Billy Graham.

The McKay group's members, in like manner, are following David McKay rather than following Christ.

But it's hard to see the picture when you're in the frame, right?

David McKay is implying something in the above texts about how God chose Billy Graham to be an apostle and raise up communities, but Graham chose to defile his conscience in the pursuit of world renown as an evangelist. McKay is basically saying that Billy Graham loves power and fame more than his calling.

In talking in such a disparaging manner about Billy Graham, David McKay gives a really good definition of himself, as it is obvious to me that he loves power and acclaim.

However, the Jesus Christians' "know it all attitude" thankfully only puts people off, and attracts only a mere unfortunate few.

The God of the McKay group punishes and fails to forgive. David constantly criticizes the faults, weak points and lacks of denominational churches. David has a knack for identifying the inconsistencies and hypocrisies within the churches, but he also belittles them. David puts words to what many people, especially young people, feel. There is still this 60’s and early 70’s-style rebellious streak that is still in him; he doesn’t want to cooperate with The System. He continually berates many Christians, even though a considerable number of them have over the years aided him in his work of forming and maintaining his group.

If a cult leader maintains control of a follower’s mind, then they can manipulate them. They don’t need to go after their money directly or steal from them. If the cult leader exerts and continues control over the followers mind, then he has access to everything that belongs to the follower.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. This is my opinion of Dave McKay. Every former member that I have read of or spoken with, expresses the same thought about David McKay and his lust for power and control. The early McKay group began with some honorable intentions, but as David garnered more and more power he became blinded. He is leading all of his disciples into a ditch.

In making these statements I am not interested in seeking revenge nor am I trying to be cruel. I am trying to inform people so they can make a choice based on facts. We all know that the group will never change as long as Dave McKay is the sole uncontested leader. He may write new teachings or they may live in new places or they may wear their hair different or wear different clothes but the basic theme will always be obedience to Dave McKay and his teachings. Dave McKay exercises sole unchallenged control over the group with no one to keep him in check. Dave McKay promotes the idea of checks and balances in his teachings, and that no one person should ever exert sole leadership of a religious movement or community, but his own lifestyle runs contrary to his teachings.

The McKay group maintains its own criteria for judging fruit which states “Judge a tree by its fruit. If the fruit is rotten the tree is rotten.” They proclaim that the group is for everyone and that those who fail to respond will suffer physical and spiritual death. Community members believe that Jesus only grants protection to them. Young adults leave their parents to join with the McKay group. The man and wife relationship is repeatedly tempered with, as well. Because people can’t implicitly obey David McKay some have attempted suicide. Some ex-members have reportedly committed suicide. Although the group outwardly promotes personal relationships with non-members, these friendships are not allowed to develop or flourish. Many remain in the group 5 or 10 years, or for however long, and then get kicked out or they may decide to leave which reduces them to zero financially, spiritually and emotionally. What kind of shape are these folks reduced to after contact with Dave McKay? This is the visible fruit of Dave McKay's "ministry."

The McKay group should use their own criteria to judge themselves. If they did then they would disband and everyone would leave today.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: "Jesus Christians," "cult", Dave McKay, the "Truth Believers"
Posted by: The Whirlwind ()
Date: January 02, 2022 09:23AM

David, you may be wondering how I was able to uncover such detailed information about the history of your group, in terms of your time with the Children of God, your meeting with Jim Roberts, and all that. Well, I'll tell you now.

From September of 2008 until September of 2009 (for fifty-one weeks, to be exact) I was a resident of Meadow Haven, which is closed now and which was in Lakeville, MA. I was there because I was trying to process and recover from my own involvement in an abusive group (more than one, actually, but that's long story). Meadow Haven was a place that I'd characterize as a rehab facility for ex-members of various cults and other abusive relationships.

It was wonderful, my experience there was. My counselors were named Bob and Judy Pardon and as far as I am concerned these people saved my life. I could never repay them for what they did for me there, in terms of mere money. My time at MeadowHaven was simply invaluable, in terms of my own recovery and personal growth.

One of the people I went through MeadowHaven with, was the first female member outside of the Berg family to join the group that eventually came to be known as the Children of God, and later the Family. She was with them in Huntington Beach, CA and back then the group was called Teens for Christ. So I was in treatment with one of the original Teens for Christ.

"Caleb" and his brother "Big Josh" were the very first members outside of the Berg family to join, and she was the first female to join. Her name in the group was LYDIA WEST, and she taught me more about the group than I frankly care to know. This woman had been through hell, to put things mildly. "Caleb" was her first husband, then she married "Marc" aka Lonnie Davis and later she and Marc opened the Jumbo, in the Philippines. She is also the narrator of "A Day At The Jumbo."

If you go through the MO Letters, as I have, you'll read all about Lydia West. She left the group in the late 1990s, so she was with them for over thirty years.

Just as an aside: LYDIA WEST was also the only other person present in the room, when David Berg's mother Virginia Brandt Berg passed away. Virginia Brandt Berg passed away in bed, while David Berg and his family were in another room, and Lydia West had to go and tell David (who was not called "Mo" yet) that his mother had just passed away. She told me that when she told this man that his mother was gone, that he become very emotional, and started praying in tongues in hopes that he could resurrect her, bring her back to life. He stood over his mother's corpse, praying to God to bring her back. What a surreal scene that must have been.

So I was in treatment with somebody who is a veritable living encyclopedia of COG/Family history, and she taught me a ton about that group, its history and practices, etc., including a lot about the McKays.

She is the one who told me about the Book of Remembrance, and she helped me in my research toward figuring out that Dave McKay is mostly full of doo-doo with respect to his story about how he is a former COG Shepherd. She was there, so she'd know who was who in terms of Family Leadership back in the day. After all, she was KQC. Here is her picture (posing with Caleb and one of their children).

This is LYDIA WEST. I was in rehab with her.


I was in MeadowHaven with Thomas too, and Thomas is the one who was there when Dave McKay and Jim Roberts met in 1990 or so. I was asking Thomas if he knew anything about a guy named Dave McKay, and Thomas said "Oh yeah, that was that group from Australia who went around preaching 'Greed Breeds Mean Deeds.'" He knew your name right away, David.

Also I was in MeadowHaven with one of Peter Amsterdam's nieces. She was/is a very, very damaged person.

Many thanks to Bob and Judy Pardon, "Lydia West" and Thomas for their help in my research toward documenting the history of the McKay group. I could not have done that on my own. I am a former member myself, but I am also a serious researcher and you cannot fool me, David.

Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2022 09:48AM by The Whirlwind.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: "Jesus Christians," "cult", Dave McKay, the "Truth Believers"
Posted by: The Whirlwind ()
Date: January 02, 2022 10:28AM

The Whirlwind Wrote:
> "Caleb" and his brother "Big Josh" were the very
> first members outside of the Berg family to join,
> and she was the first female to join. Her name in
> the group was LYDIA WEST, and she taught me more
> about the group than I frankly care to know. This
> woman had been through hell, to put things mildly.
> "Caleb" was her first husband, then she married
> "Marc" aka Lonnie Davis and later she and Marc
> opened the Jumbo, in the Philippines. She is also
> the narrator of "A Day At The Jumbo."

PS: In the COG/Family, her name was LYDIA WEST, as well as SERENA and SERENE. If you go through the MO LETTERS, you will see those names mentioned not infrequently. Her birth name I of course will not disclose. She was also Ricky Rodriguez' first nanny, and she was a friend of the woman who Davidito killed.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: "Jesus Christians," "cult", Dave McKay, the "Truth Believers"
Posted by: The Whirlwind ()
Date: January 03, 2022 03:28AM

The woman at 1:22 in this video from 1972 (the one who is saying "...hopeth all things, endureth all things"), is also LYDIA WEST. She helped me a lot toward figuring out the history of the COG in Australia, and therefore the history of the McKay group. She was the wife of "Caleb" at the time.


Options: ReplyQuote
Re: "Jesus Christians," "cult", Dave McKay, the "Truth Believers"
Posted by: The Whirlwind ()
Date: January 03, 2022 05:18AM

For my part, I happen to have been in treatment with LYDIA WEST, and consequently we were basically roommates for about a year. She used to come hang out with me, and would sleep on my couch in my apartment, after I graduated from MeadowHaven. Once we went to a water park together and played on the water slides like a couple of little kids. When we were in Meadowhaven together, I got to sit and talk with her, and so pretty much was able to informally interview her in an unstructured way, at great length. We used to talk for hours and hours about our experiences as former members of abusive groups. She used to be a close friend of mine, though we have not spoken in almost ten years and I would not know where to find her today.

There is no possible way that anybody could identify the birth name of LYDIA WEST, and locate her today, based on what I have written of her here. She is highly protective of her privacy, and she has never done a single formal, recorded interview with an academic, media outlet, historian, or anybody else. She is very private, and I have respected her boundaries. There is no way anybody could identify and then find her, with the information I have provided here. That would be impossible, and I am certain of this.

I do not know it for a fact, but I've been told that she is living with dementia and is in an assisted living facility today, and she probably would not remember me anyway. That makes me sad. I love her, and I miss her a lot.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2022 05:21AM by The Whirlwind.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: "Jesus Christians," "cult", Dave McKay, the "Truth Believers"
Posted by: The Whirlwind ()
Date: January 03, 2022 06:59AM

Look who helped to research and compile the history of the Children of God in Australia. Well, if it's not LYDIA WEST again! Gotcha, David!

From the Book of Remembrance:

"Compiled by Lydia West, Keda, Kezia Newsong, Shem, and Apelles Cheshire, and the testimonies of the faithful pioneers in each of the fields"


"Australia was a radical country. The man on the street was often a socialist, with a newly elected Labor government which immediately stopped the draft and pulled out of the Vietnam War, recognized China, as well as received us heartily. We witnessed to senators, ministers, and regularly corresponded with the deputy prime minister and sent him MO Letters! Australia was very open to our religion of love. Praise God! It was a witnessers’ paradise. We were mainly financed through forsake-alls, mail donations, and extensive provisioning. We moved into a larger house in February 1973 near King’s Cross, Sydney, where we set up a print shop, darkroom, taping ministry, and office and base for the area.

After the Letter 'Are We Catholics or Protestants?' came out, we met the Little Sisters of Jesus in Sydney and became quite close. In the early days before some untrue and negative publicity got around, we were very well received by the Catholics—singing in schools, convents, seminaries and even for masses!

Isaac and Rebekah (our first Australian disciple) were married in the biggest Catholic cathedral in Australia, which was filmed in full by the major TV station! Shua and Lydia Nun met Mother Teresa and got her blessing during the gigantic Eucharistic Congress held in Melbourne in 1973, which was attended, of course, by many of our tract-passing COG members!

Up until this time we had no oversight, so we were desperate with God, because we didn’t know what to do. Thanks to the Lord’s guidance, we seemed to be riding a fast-moving wave—every Letter as it came out gave us timely and specific directions on how to ride this wave! Now most of these early pioneers have gone on to other fields In Asia and India and are helping to reap the harvests of the Golden Triangle. Thank You, Jesus!"

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2022 07:00AM by The Whirlwind.

Options: ReplyQuote

Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
This forum powered by Phorum.