Denise has turned on me twice now. I'm not stupid. But she has also been honest about having done the wrong thing and come to me asking for forgiveness. I have yet to see any of the other trolls out there do that! I would do the same thing for Sheila, Kevin, Brian, or Alan. But Denise is the only one who has had the humility to do that. That seems to be the line between heaven and hell in God's books, so I think I can afford to give her another chance.

David Mckay

God....this DOES look increasingly bizarre! The childish ploy to evoke "guilt" in Sheila, Kevin, Brian or Alan is utterly transparent...

but that Denise "came back" to David, "asking for forgiveness", in "humility" if true....

sounds like some devilish compact of insanity...."united" against their supposedly mutual enemies...


[www.youtube.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2010 11:53PM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

....i dont need mal calling me a dog with dave as my master...

Glenn.

Glenn, it is true that you are not a "dog".....you are a human being, with whom I have some serious issues. I will not use the term again. Those issues, that concern me, relate to the "authenticity" you lend McKay....and the "authority" that you have apparently ceded him in your life.

I repeat: You state that you have met with McKay and "consort" (Cherry I mean, not Denise!) and that you have never met with any of the critics of McKay, ...and it appears that you have subsequently based your assessment of the "merits" of the arguments of each party, on your personal interaction with "friendly Dave" on a single instance...

....you have never sought to confirm the experiences of those who have literally lived under McKay's thumb for years....

....and you have (merrily) participated in the denigration of those, who suffered significant periods of servitude under McKay


Your recent comments about Denise are to the overwhelming majority of observers, perfectly reasonable...and yet I suspect, now that David has clearly indicated you are expected to "grovel" before him (acknowledge the inane suggestion, that Denise is simply "another party" to the debate, with the right to continue to "contribute" as she has been doing).....that you will indeed do so....as you fear "rejection" from David!

Glenn and Al:

You don’t care about presenting balance in a discussion. You just like to stir up trouble and make things hard for everybody on both sides.

You have spent a few years years embroiled in an ongoing, one-sided game. That's all that this is to you, isn't it? Some kind of game.

You don’t care what it was like for someone who was in this very harmful cult called the Jesus Christians.

You don't care about warning the public and helping to prevent anybody else's kid from being preyed upon by DM and his crew.

You do not care about the pain and suffering of that DM has caused to his victims' families.

You can’t be made to even consider the possible effect of your diversionary missives on anyone who was in this group, who may actually have experienced additional trauma later on.

You’re just a couple of inconsiderate, sub-par, pseudo-intellectual agents provocateur who aren't even capable of seeing how very poorly you serve your professed purpose of being a proponent of, and apologist for, the JCs.

If you were capable of any of these insights you would be aware of how your reductive, dismissive, insensitive and yeah, (even to your claimed objective) incompetence is exactly like that of the JCs themselves.

Glenn and Al, neither of you will prevail in this misguided endeavor of yours to belittle the firsthand accounts of those who experienced and witnessed abuses committed against the victims of David McKay.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2010 01:47AM by zeuszor.

I just remembered that Glen once recommended to me that I commit suicide by drinking "the jim jones kind" of red cordial (Red Kool-Aid to Americans), and I am pretty sure that he's written similar things to others. The quote is preserved here. This was in the same thread where he and Al were expressing their admiration for, and support of, Westboro Baptist Church and Fred Phelps. These two are horrible trolls and we've said it over and over again, over the last few years.

Quote
PtolemyGlenn
Just your response shows that Shirley is saner than you. You're like a kid who has had too much red cordial ( pity not the Jim Jones kind). Shirley is just expressing an opinion, an opinion which some agree with and some done.

[www.jesus-teachings.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2010 04:32AM by zeuszor.

[forum.culteducation.com]

October 17, 2007 12:41PM

"You're like a kid who has had too much red cordial ( pity not the Jim Jones kind)."

looks like another little rose melt down has caused the jesus christin forum to have to be locked down.

glenn had started posts to the 2 cult co leaders dennise and dave. then all the forums got put into complete lockdown. it seems dennise didn't like being questioned.

glen said she could very well be so crazy she is posting things to make her self look like a victim of others.
i think that could be true. i havent seen one post attacking her family so i think that is her bull and its to get pity.
dave is now taking dennises side while not wanting to piss glen off too much. but glenn also seems to want to remain on dave good side so insted of standing up to lies glen takes the easy way and blames people from here. dave says he has an ip adress and the person bugging dennise came from meloborn austrailia. who knows? you can;'t belive any of them. funny how they talk about the bad of gossip yet they spend countless pages gossiping.
dave mckay is playing with people. he's made people turn on each other. he makes people scared to talk to other people because he needs the control. hes like a puppet master playing with the puppets.

i do think its pretty funny how now it's dave and dennise---dennise and dave like they are a couple.

Jesus Christians Newsletter #129, November, 2010

More Violence in Kenya

Readers may recall several months ago, that Robin rescued a man with psychological problems from being stoned to death by villagers for an attack he had made on someone in the markets.

This week he was involved in a similar act of violence, and locals attempted once again to kill him, this time with machetes. Miraculously, he survived and was taken to a local hospital, where he lost his hand, and was treated for numerous deep cuts to the rest of his body. It is a wonder that he did not bleed to death.

Meanwhile, the following short single-column article appeared in a Nairobi newspaper this week, which gives a rough idea of the official attitude toward members of the public taking the law into their own hands, as locals did with this mentally disturbed man:

Brave matatu [taxi van] passengers overpowered four carjackers and lynched two yesterday. Police said the vehicle was travelling from Nairobi when the gang seized it and drove it toward Gaumu. On the way, the owner of the matatu grabbed one of the robbers, who was driving, causing the vehicle to hit an electricity pole as a result. Residents joined the passengers in lynching two of the robbers and then set their bodies ablaze.

Nothing in the article indicated that the police saw anything wrong with the passengers killing the robbers.

Broken Hand

Barry had an accident with his bike last week, landing on his hand and breaking a bone. It has been particularly awkward for him, trying to distribute copies of Survivors with just one hand, but Barry has soldiered on bravely. He will probably be in a cast for another four or five weeks.

Although Barry has been experimenting with survival in a squat, he moved back into the bus with Ross during the first couple weeks after the accident. Together they had a successful outreach to the Blue Mountains.

Israel Trip

It has been seven years since Paul donated a kidney to a woman in Israel. She has been asking him to come back for a visit ever since the donation, so he went over for a short visit during the month. Ulrike was invited too, but her passport was nearly expired, and so she could not travel. As our passports expire, each of us will be waiting on God to open doors before we consider any further international travel, because we do not want to be associated with the microchips included in the latest passports.

Twins Featured at Festival

A documentary, called "I Need You to Save My Life" was screened at the Fort Lauderdale International Film Festival at the end of the month, resulting in several people signing up to become organ donors during the festival. The film features kidney donations by Jeremy and Jayme (among others).

Videos Hit the Streets

The first 50,000 DVDs of "The Tyrant Within" and "Beyond Justice" is due on the streets of London this week. We are all keenly awaiting the response of the general public to these two powerful messages.

If readers would like a copy of this video, they can write to: uklisteners@yahoo.co.uk and request one. Give us your postal address, and we will give you an address where you can send a small donation to help cover the cost of replicating and posting.

'Survivors' Comic Underway

Simon has begun working on a comic book version of "Survivors" in conjunction with Dave. It is expected to take several months to reach completion, and several more to be printed. Nevertheless, we hope to have it available for the general public sometime next year.

Slum Gardens

Casey, GD, Karl and Tim traveled from Nairobi to spend a weekend with the rest of us at our international volunteer centre in Western Kenya. While they were here, we discussed plans for a number of projects in the Nairobi area, including one that has already been started at an orphanage, where we plant up to 50 seedlings in one very big sack of fertile soil. The seedlings grow out the side of the bag as well as from the top, and this allows city slum dwellers to grow most of their family's vegetable needs with just minimal yard or porch space.

Survival Outreach

Trevor went on yet another survival outreach, this time with Ross, before he left Sydney to join the U.S. team. They slept on cardboard without blankets. Only one night was particularly cold, and the next day someone gave them blankets to be used for the duration of the outreach.
When he arrived in the U.S. Trevor was pleased to see that Jesse and Reinhard had been working on ways to do less driving around the vast L.A. area, and to cut down on their own food waste as well, all in preparation for the day when we will be starting to live entirely without money.
Family Visits

Bob, Alan, and Kim went to Manchester, where Bob visited his parents and his brother. His mother generously donated two used laptop computers to the community. While there, Kim visited an old friend as well. When they returned to London, Fran and Kim visited Fran's sister, who is currently living there.

On an outreach to Brighton, Alan was able to visit his sister. His mother refused a visit, apparently in protest against him becoming a Jesus Christian. Because Alan is in his sixties, it led to some interesting discussion about how age really is no barrier when parents decide to resist a decision to follow Jesus.

Sue's brother and his wife visited London from Australia, and Rols, Sue, and Dan were able to spend some time together with them before they flew off to France for a holiday.

Exam Results

Dan's early exam results were one C, two B's, and the rest A's. He will have two more chances to improve on those marks. Good work, Dan!

Church Band

Jesse joined his father in performing at a church service, where they both played in the band. Jesse played the saxophone.

Ross' Activism

Ross attended protest marches against the war in Afghanistan and in support of refugees. He has also volunteered to assist a refugee aid organisation which gets no funding from the government.
Aussie Teen Volunteer

An 18-year-old high school graduate from Western Australia stayed for a few weeks with us in Kenya as part of a tour she is doing of the world before going on to university. She was a great help during her time at the volunteer centre especially when working with the local children.

Freeganism

Freeganism and related topics continue to inspire new acquaintances in the U.K., where Paul and Ulrike shared a freegan meal with two Greek women, one of whom Paul had met through a free economy function, sponsored by Mark Boyle (who is featured on the video about the Mark of the Beast).
The team watched a freegan documentary which featured Alan and two Scottish Freegans. The documentary showed how shops are now deliberately destroying food and adding dye to keep it from being eaten.

Outings

Roland and Sue were given free circus tickets while out distributing copies of Listening and took several JCs along with them for the outing. The circus had some amazing performances by, amongst others, Chinese acrobats, an unbelievably 'rubber' woman, an actually funny clown, and some energetic African dancers and gymnasts -including doing the limbo under a flaming rod only 30cm from the ground! The JCs had lots of fun oohing and aahing with the rest of the crowd, and had a great night out.

The Gianstefanis met up with Catherine (from the forum) in Cornwall, and she treated them to tickets to see the Eden Project.

Joe's Surgery Looms

Joe appears to be very close to donating a kidney to an unnamed recipient, with the operation planned by the end of the month, providing all the tests were successful.

Holiday for Rob and Chris

Rob and Chris were given a week's holiday at a hotel in Kisumu as partial compensation for having missed out on the reunion cruise in Australia. They had been near exhaustion from the many duties at the volunteer centre, and the week has brought them back feeling more inspired and refreshed.

Typhoid Continues

Our battles with typhoid in Kenya, have continued, although faithful treatment with the relevant medications seem to be protecting everyone from serious symptoms so far.

New articles

There are several new articles on our web site. Click on the links below to see them.

Alf has written one called "When Silence is not Golden", which defends our right (and need) to challenge the lies that have been told about us. Five-star stuff!

[www.jesus-teachings.com]

Dave writes about the need to be responding to God, and not just to a doctrine, when choosing to forsake all and live by faith, in "The Calling".

[www.jesus-teachings.com]

Then there is a very short article about how people can let their own failures destroy their lives, instead of moving on, called "Sour Grapes".

[www.jesus-teachings.com]

Discussion Topics

Some new discussion topics on the forum this month:

Constant Prayer, by Trevor: Questions what it means to "pray without ceasing".

[www.jesus-teachings.com]

God in Life Situations, by Simon: People share how they cope when things go wrong in their lives.

[www.jesus-teachings.com]

Right up to the Creepy Line, by Alf: An article on how far Google is prepared to go in controlling our lives leads to talk about how far we are prepared to go before we finally take a stand against the Mark of the Beast.

[www.jesus-teachings.com]

Lady Gossip, by Dave: A discussion about the need to deal ruthlessly with gossip and gossips.

[www.jesus-teachings.com]

I Ask Your Thoughts on Usury, by Mosheh: A reader who says he is running for President of the United States, discusses his plans to save the world.

[jesus-teachings.com]

Catholicism and JCs, by Littlerose: Comparisons between the Jesus Christians and Catholicism.

[www.jesus-teachings.com]

Rick Ross Article, by Dave: Telling how Rick was involved in an extortion bomb threat, for which he served time in prison.

[www.jesus-teachings.com]

Oldies but Goodies, by Dave: A list of links to some 20 or more outstanding articles that have never been published in hard copy, and which people may have missed when they first came out. Definitely worth looking through these to find some that interest you.

[www.jesus-teachings.com]

Sheila's Testimony, by Alf: Reminders of some of the lies that Sheila told under oath against Joe, Reinhard, Dave, and the JC community in just one of three court appearances, for which she needs to make amends if she wishes to restore a right relationship with Joe.

[www.jesus-teachings.com]

Atheist Website Includes Jesus' Teachings, by Jose-David: A remarkable list of some of the same teachings that we have, on an atheistic web site that challenges Christians to get serious about obeying the one they call Lord.

[www.jesus-teachings.com]

The Reason, by Dave: An essay on why it is that so many people intensely dislike us, followed by some interesting comments.

[www.jesus-teachings.com]

There is No Virtue in Prayer, by Dave: This shocking title just refers to people thinking that they have done something great by praying.

[www.jesus-teachings.com]

When the Truth Hurts, by Dave: An actual email exchange, where the writer goes from praise for what we teach and honesty about her own faults, to a hard nasty spirit when confronted with the need for change in her own life. Includes the video of Francis Chan's sermon, "Lukewarm and Lovin' It".

[www.jesus-teachings.com]

MCKAY'S EARLY BOOKS

McKay’s first “book” (more a booklet) was, You Can’t Put God in a Box. It was a paraphrase of the Gospel of Luke. The book was copyrighted in 1973 and marketed in 1974.

McKay’s second “book," A Letter to Rome, was an Australian paraphrase of some of the teachings of the apostle Paul. The book was copyrighted in 1974 and marketed in 1975. The post office address in the book was the same address being used by the Children of God in late 1976.

In 1975 McKay told the media that he was planning to publish, Last Lament for America based on the writing of the Hebrew prophet Jeremiah, and All Systems Whoa!, a paraphrase of John's Revelation. Presumably, the books would have been copyright in 1975 and marketed in 1976.

It was interesting to read on the X site that McKay sent one of these booklets to Dave Berg, leader of the Children of God. Although it appears that the poster's recollection of dates (and the details of McKay’s supposed break from the COG) are a little hazy, this demonstrates why it is so important to get accurate and precise information published, so the public doesn't get fooled by DM’s spin.

The Children of God first arrived in Australia in 1972, and it is clear from McKay’s writing in books such as Excommunicated that he was influenced by them in Australia as early as 1973. He was still associated with them in 1976 in Broken Hill and large full page advertisements were run promoting them in his newspaper, The Broken Hill Regional Advertiser.

Cherry McKay was so concerned about DM’s involvement in the Children of God that she sought the help of a Church of Christ Minister. It was only Cherry’s claimed decision to leave Dave that caused him to relinquish formal ties with COG, although he continued to maintain an association with them and receive COG materials for several more years.

According to COG History, Flirty Fishing was introduced to the cult in 1974. McKay has always maintained that he left the COG because of these teachings. Given his involvement in the COG right through to 1976, this claim has always been brought into question. The Investigator magazine for example, states that McKay let the COG in 1977.

In 1996 McKay was still not trying to distance himself from COG and in his publication, “Baby Book II” he clearly spelled out the COG connection. “We represent a small remnant of that group, which still clings to the truths taught by the Children of God in the early days of their history”.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2010 06:41PM by zeuszor.

Dear Zeuszor,

I again VERY thankful for your scholarly efforts here..... most grateful indeed that you have been able to "track" some of the elusive trail of this shameless, self promoting, sham.

Are we able to co-reference the approximate "dates" with "places" at all....? (Again, I'm thinking of the need to ultimately go to print with factual data).

Say after his arrival in Australia, it was roughly Canberra ( Employed in the Bible Society - met the COGs), Broken Hill (Employed in the Barrier Times - operates as a COG outpost), Alice Springs (Employed in the Aboriginal Settlement - his "own" cult at this stage),.....then Talllangata (Neville is recruited somewhere around this point....Ross and I both arrive Christmas day 1981 and his cult "takes off".....)...if I'm not mistaken. During my period of servitude:

Rappville - Rappville/Sydney-Lewisham - Sydney, Paddington (Operations in India begin) - Sydney, Petersham/Indian Operations - until:

The 1985 Walk across the Nullarbor...and I'm out of the cult! (May God be thanked!)

(The period between Alice Springs and Tallangatta may possibly have an intervening location...are you aware of what this may be, if so?)

Your quote of David: “We represent a small remnant of that group, which still clings to the truths taught by the Children of God in the early days of their history”. was very much the sense that I had, of his perception of himself, during the Tallangatta period.....


...then of course the 1985 - 2010 period deserves to be "mapped out" as fully as possible....the "high point" of his cult appears to have been just before the split(1996?), when he betrayed his very own son, in order that he retain control of an "absolute monarchy".....

......really, in hindsight, you can say that it's been downhill for the JC's since then...and these days seemingly "downhill" at an ever faster pace.....


(Oh and see that I was right in my estimation of the "strength of character" involved in another instance....Glenn capitulated to David, on demand!)

I agree with Mal...very good to see the information that documents details carefully zeuszor.

I am intrigued with the Children of God connections. I give Cherry credit for seeking help to make sure that her children were kept safe from such miserable circumstances as that COG business....it's a shame she did not just take her children and leave Dave McKay PERIOD unless he stopped this rubbish. The shock and threat of losing his family might have been enough to wake up McKay but perhaps NOT since he has so willing rejected all Kevin's attempts at peace.

Even if Cherry had left, I expect McKay would have found some needy lonely soul, someone looking for a master and he would have filled all the neediness and attention seeking from that sad creature and let that unstable soul latch onto him so he could have the worship he needs and someone to listen to him and to offer him feedback so he isn’t SEEN talking to himself.

Speaking of little rose, it seems she single handedly shut down the McKay forum---is it possible she could by simple association, destroy his cult in the same way---??? If so you GOOOOOOOOOOOO little rose!