Hmm...thankyou for the link, Zeusor....where Damien remarks...

It bothers when outsiders of the JC's who haven't been with them for more than half an hour tell they are a cult, since they are absolutely not a cult. But being a real Christian is as hard than despised nowadays.

Indeed!

It bothers me when former insiders of the JC's who been with them for countless years (say Apostate and Kevin)

have their contributions removed from the JC thread in order to prevent them telling others that the JC's are an absolute cult


.....and little Damien is too clueless to realize that he's now already within the "lair", ....where any free speech on the part of David critics, is simply edited into "thin air"..!


Damien is already prey to circular reasoning (The JC's are only hated by those who "hate Christs' commandments".....this "persecution" is due to the JC's "championing" the "real gospel"......)

....the future prospects for this young man look grim indeed....!








x



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2010 11:11AM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

David McKay is a psychopath. People like him cannot be reasoned with; they cannot be changed. People like David McKay cannot have friends, as they are incapable of having truly reciprocal relationships with others. People like him do not have friends (indeed CANNOT have friends), they only have FANS, and only see opportunities. In other words, this "logic-and-reason" approach in order to try and get him to see the error of his ways and change his behavior is never going to be effective. That will never work. He is just a toxic, poisoned and poisonous, evil little man.

[www.jesus-teachings.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2010 08:46PM by zeuszor.

Dear Zeuszor,

Well I certainly agree with your bleak assessment there....!

I wonder at what point exactly one becomes "enmeshed" in the fantasy...(a point that would likely be common across the cult experience)....and here I mean, no longer able to independantly and rationally analyze the behaviour of a cult and it's leader(s).

I think that the "turning point" would be when you begin to credit the cult and it's leader with a "special message"...

that you can somehow "benefit" from....

...once you pass that point, you become amenable to the "explanations" that are progressively proffered to you

(ideally for the cult, explanations that are offered once you are sufficiently isolated).....


that "special message" justifying the cults otherwise unethical behaviour

that "special message" being the reason for the "unjustified criticisms" the cult "unfairly" faces

that "special message" only really available to those who are able to make some "personal sacrifices"


I remember thinking what a "refreshingly honest" take, David McKay's (yes okay...actually David Berg's) material, was when I first encountered it....

I then became open to the suggestions of the "implications" that these so-called truths "neccesarily" had for me.....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2010 11:47AM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

Mal, I really don't think that any of this is worth all the drama for me anymore. Too many personality clashes have come into it. If everybody was a bit more united, then it would be worthwhile, but I don't see that happening.

It is unfortunate that there are so many self interests involved in the whole JC issue. There are very few people (that are involved in the JC debate) that I can have a meaningful dialogue with. Everyone appears to have an individual axe to grind. There is so much preoccupation in scoring points and expressing moral superiority, that the whole point of the exercise i.e. of educating the public about the JCs, becomes lost. Of course, David wins every time he can score points off the divisions between his own critics.

It just becomes counter productive with people like Blackhat coming on to have a go at me, in an effort to support the others. The ex clique are concerned about the split or personal family issues and so it goes on...

Whatever it is afflicting most of the JCs is not just thought reform; most of them probably had serious issues, even before McKay got to them.

The other day for example, Ulrike mentioning she had a brain tumor removed when she was six! There is something psychologically imbalanced with virtually the whole lot of the JCs!

Quote
Ulrike
When I was 6 years old I had a brain tumor. I can't say that I really knew who God was or that I prayed to get healed. My parents probably did. The operation was successful and now after years I believe that God already was in control by not letting me die, so that now I can follow Jesus and am thankful that I'm still alive.

[www.jesus-teachings.com]

These types of statements will piss some people off and I am going to be accused of "victim-bashing" again; I know I will get the lecture, "but normal people join cults too", and all that. But we all know some of the common issues that have been identified about JC members. Anger-management issues, pissed off at parents, plain old gullibility and naivete, not very bright/educated, borderline tendencies, and what have you.

Damien certainly seems to fit the angry man type that the JC attract or are able to recruit.

I think a major dent has been made in the JCs. There is probably value in keeping the RR thread alive will good factual info from time to time. But all the politics, fighting among people, engaging with the JC, etc. I can't waste my time anymore, for now at least. Too many positive things I could be doing and I just seem to be being hammered from all sides!

I have decided to (for the most part) take a break for three months or so and see what happens to the ex JC site and RR, etc. Later, I will re-evaluate this decision. I'll probably post the newsletters as I get them, but that's it.

Quote
Ulrike
Just yesterday I read a chapter in Survivors which talks about people choosing to be with the Christians (Tribulation Force)instead of the government of the Antichrist.

It says that a few people towards the end of the tribulation still decided to join the Christians although they don't really know what they believed. But they knew that they believe that the system of the Antichrist is not the right thing so they turn towards the Tribulation force (the Christians) who have the faith to do the right thing.

It struck me that they could see the evil in the system and didn't want to go with the majority.
Survivors is just a novel (about what may happen), but I think this part of the book shows how people who have a little bit of faith (and a lot of courage) can do the right thing.

[www.jesus-teachings.com]

OK, Ulrike, but the BIBLE also shows how people who have a little bit of faith (and a lot of courage) can do the right thing. Why not read it instead?

So the writings of DM seem to be more important than Scripture, in the JC world. That is to say, that all of the Bible's teachings are to be understood (for them) through the lens of DM's worldview. Pathetic. Most of the JCs are just dead from the neck up. And if they suddenly have kidney problems (with their one remaining kidney) they will be dead from the neck down as well.

Quote
dsm
Often, when people leave a cult, they drop a lot of what the cult laid on them, but there is an internalized manner of dealing with people that is not dropped as quickly.

Yep. Like I always say: when all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail. Besides, I am about as popular with the XJC clique as Tony Hayward is in New Orleans right now. Goodbye.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2010 06:40AM by zeuszor.

....you can't argue with the verbal script in those comics DSM


..you certainly can't argue with platitudes, and generalizations....that (deliberately) lack the detail of any substantive assertions...

...and what is the origin of both the visual material and the manipulative style....?

....David BERG, COG leader from who McKay originally stole his "work"


(If you have the scripts of any of the current batch of comics, please post them to the board, DSM, as I would like to see them for myself!)

If one has NO background about the JesusChristians and the dishonesty of the manner in which they present themselves (David actually looking for docile souls who will devote themselves 24/7 to selling his empire, and faithfully regurgitate whatever he feeds them, NOT the "new agers" or "disenfranchised youth".....I think you'll find that most of his slave labour had "problems" or were "vulnerable" at some particular point in their life..when they had the misfortune to come across the Jesus Christian....

For example,

DSM, could you nominate a single "organ-donor" or "committed freegan" or "downtrodden African" (since BETTY!) who has joined the Jesus Christians....?

Not a single intelligent soul, who has genuine idealism and yet is free to independently consider all the facts....has committed himself to McKay!

(You are of course free to correct me here, with a contrary example....) David ultimately only recruits those who need a "cocoon".....

The illustrated material is simply the "Kool-Aid" in which to mask the poison.....This is NOT a sweatshop of bonded labour, it's a "cocoon"for you!



Thank you for the link to the comical work of the very witty Monty Python team....if you look far enough back in these pages, I think that you may find that others have also contributed similar material, that ridicule the "airs and graces" that David has of himself!

Dear DSM,

If you don't mind, I'll address some of the issues you raise in point form...

*

I'm not sure I understand your whole post, Malcolm. Nominate donors for what?

....could you nominate a single "organ-donor" or "committed freegan" or "downtrodden African" (since BETTY!) who has joined the Jesus Christians....? (My original posting)

Ergo, McKay (and the JesusChristians....who are little more than an extension of his psyche...in what they do and believe....please refer to some of the works by the author HASSAN) fail to recruit those who they (falsely) contend that they ultimately represent....the "sincere".....

*

What "sweatshop" or "cocoon" for whom? I can't make any sense out of that at all.

The "Sweatshop" is an accurate description of the employment in years of servitude to McKay that his disciples commit themselves to without recompense, propriertary rights, or any guarantees concerning their workplace conditions. They amount to little more than slave labour for McKay.....as (I imagine) you write from the US(?), you may with to look up the terms "invountary servitude" or "unconscionable contract" in an online legal dictionary, for further clarification!

The "cocoon" is again a reference to the pyschological condition of "escapism" that cults like the JesusChristians offer members (for the price of their "souls")....which works on cults are you familiar with?

*

As far as the comics are concerned, I simply went into their site and looked at the ones they have there. and you are right, they are probably lifted whole-cloth from Berg or anyone else because they are a common sort of street-pamphlet.

You may notice that the "comics" of the '80's had a far higher standard of presentation....this is the work of David's son Kevin, a successul and accomplished artist....the standard of the"visual material" has gone dramatically down-hill since his departure....

*

But what I was getting at was the slight humor in the sketches. It all looks very hack-job amateur, but the way Jesus is depicted as looking at the women is one of the things that moves the recruit in a direction of human leadership with all the attendant sexual perks, not in a spiritual direction. It is not obvious enough to elicit a verbal thought unless you are looking for it. It doesn';t matter if McKay took this from someone else or invented it himself, he puts it to a certain use anyway.

I believe that it does matter, if David steals material and fails to acknowledge the author, as pointing this out, reliably establishes the degree of fraud he attempts to perpetuate.....say another example would be the fabrication that he "authored" the survivor series, given that he stole the genesis of the idea from Timothy La Haye.....(Joe Johnson then should really have run away from home and "thrown himself at La Hayes' feet" in supplication, not McKays!!)

*

Is this thread really just a McKay fan club or is it about that cult and the tactics it uses to fool people?

Could you please quote me directly, where I have (even inadvertently!) posted material that may be read to support McKay? In relation to others who post, you would need to contact them directly and alert them to this possibility.....the man IS the cult (i.e. an extension of his personality).....hence McKay is a " recurring theme" if you like...

*

Because I do see a recuitment & discredit, strategy going on here. It is sophisticated: focus only on the leader, thus members look continuously for his personal faults and they cannot credit the cult's critics unless they have enough direct contact with McKay to see him display the faults named here, and of course that is not likely to happen.

*

Factual material in relation to McKay has been posted previously, and will continue to be posted.....his personal history (hidden as far as possible by the JC's.....) discredits him.....

He will be dead eventually, then yes, the focus will be squarely on the "next generation" of glorious leaders, who will simply continue in McKays stinking footsteps....

*

#1, most JC's probably are somewhat removed from his immediate presence most of the time

Most JC's are now "long term inmates" (have been JC members for years)....hence are too heavily "invested" in the organization to be able to rationally evaluate it's impact upon them....

they now NEED to perpetuate the myth, for their own psychological "health"........

*

and #2 it is not hard for him to be on "good behavior" long enough to claim innocense

Hmmm....actually NO, here I must disagree with you.....I don't believe that David is capable of "good behaviour" that is "long enough"....please see his Jeremy Kyle performance..

*

and #3 human psychology is such that his support team of enablers are the ones to watch reactions to this thread and quickly manipulate any members who seem to be affected by it.

This thread is unlikely to persuade existing members to leave.....I've personally never imagined that it would! Only "approved leaders" would be authorized by McKay to peruse it.....the "rank and file" will otherwise gullibly accept whatever they are told to think about it.....as we know, they are in a cult...

*

As long as it is about McKay, the man, and not about the general cult process, it is easy for this thread to function as a JC feeder instead of a JC debunker. But if the few regulars in this thread can step back from McKay long enough to analyze the material he uses and the JC cult process in general, then it is a LOT harder for the enablers to debunk the critics.

As I have remarked, McKay the "man" and the "general cult process" are one and the same in the JC's.....although I otherwise agree with you, and the entire "organization" should be debunked!

Have you looked back through any of the postings in the 400 or so pages preceding you, DSM?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/29/2010 09:49AM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

JESUS CHRISTIANS NEWSLETTER, JULY, 2010

New Member

We have a young new disciple, name Trevor, who met us while visiting Australia from Canada. It is early days yet, but Trevor appears to be very keen about spiritual things, even though he was a self-professed atheist just a few months ago. He is participating in all of the activities planned for the reunion, and we were even able to get a berth for him on the cruise.

Reunion

The international Jesus Christian reunion officially started this month, so most of our news is from Australia.

Video Production

Half of the team has been distributing books, mostly in Sydney, and the other half has been piecing together footage shot in many places around the world, as they race to complete two video documentaries before the end of July.

One, called "The Tyrant Within", is about the Mark of the Beast. It examines the various approaches taken to this topic by religious groups as well as conspiracy theorists, settling on an interpretation of the passage which emphasises the need for us to examine our own motives with regard to money, and how it influences us spiritually.

The other, at least tentatively called "Beyond Justice", deals with three different Jesus Christian experiments involving substitutionary punishment, one of them being the incident in Kenya which was in response to the police practice of whipping offenders, and the second was the trial in Long Beach for Joe's family.

Johnson Apology

A new development with regard to Joe's family is that his mother has posted an apology for "all the trouble that has happened". Her apology (and subsequent attempts by Joe to determine how much responsibility she personally accepts for the attack on Reinhard and the lies that followed it in court depositions) can be viewed here:

[jesus-teachings.com]

Phantom Runs

It has been particularly exciting to participate in group phantom runs and daily training sessions, with so many people running together on the same track.

We have finally found a training regimen which is harder than the old repetitions (six 400 metre runs at five minute intervals), and that is something that we call repetition relays. Runners push themselves to the max four times in twenty minutes, in an effort to help their team. (And usually end up wrecked for the rest of the day as a result!) It is leading to new levels of fitness for many of our members. (Although Casey, who has not been doing them, just posted a time of 10:49 today, the fastest time posted by any of our members for quite some time now.)

Musical Performances

Jesus Christian musicians are rocketing to fame with three public appearances in eight days in Australia, and more scheduled as crowds pick up at each performance. Because we are trying to keep our location secret during the reunion, we cannot say where the shows took place, but rest assured that these venues are, like, really huge... with more than fifty people at one performance! Seriously, the shows have been very well received, and we have been getting many requests for more appearances, including a special "Christmas in July" show.

Visit from Boop

Boopalan has dropped in for a visit with the team still left in Kenya, where he has been a big help as usual, lending a hand in the garden, helping with electrical repairs, visiting high school students in the local area, and doing other chores around the compound. He also helped Rob with repairs to the solar hot water heater, which was hooked up incorrectly by a local plumber.

World Cup

Because the English teaching program in Kenya is on hold at the moment, there has been more time for the Kenya team (especially Karl) to visit the local "cinema" (a TV in a hut) to watch soccer games from the World Cup in South Africa. Locals were very disappointed to see Ghana eliminated as the last African team in the competition.

Over in Australia, Fran in particular stayed up much of the night to see Argentina bundled out of the competition by Germany, 4-0. Now that our favorites have been eliminated, maybe we can get some other tasks done!

Orphanage Visit

Two local regulars, Jesse and Julius, visited for a few days during the month, and did a lot of work around the compound. We went to the orphanage in Kakamega and played with the kids there while Jesse and Julius were with us.

Book Distribution

Our team of book distributers continue to do well in Nairobi and other towns, getting out thousands of books to schools around the country this month.

Air Link to Nairobi

The local airstrip, which is rarely ever used, has started getting a bit of traffic recently. There are now two flights to Nairobi each day and sometimes we see helicopters coming and going.

Adopt-a-patient

Casey has started up a website to promote the adopt-a-patient program which he started in Nairobi. With this program, volunteers take responsibility for visiting individual patients at a local hospital. The program has been steadily growing over the past year, and is much appreciated by both the staff and patients at the hospital.

Here is the link to the web site:
[www.adopt-a-patient.webs.com]

New Articles

Five new articles have gone up this month, including a letter from a young woman who visited our community and then faced irrational opposition by friends and relatives afterwards. Her observations give an accurate reflection of what many face when they befriend us. Jeremy looks at what it means to "call on the name of the Lord" in an article called "Once Saved, Always Saved"; Simon challenges people to resist condemnation in his article "Choose Your Tree"; Bob shows how it is easier to love people if we understand that they are just products of their own environment; and Dave has written about the concept of any

action being the start of a downward trend in "The Slippery Slope".

You can see all of these articles by clicking here:
[www.jesus-teachings.com]

Forum Topics

As usual, there are a lot of new topics being discussed on the forum. We encourage all of our readers to join the forum and share their thoughts on some of these topics.

An inspirational call by Paul for all of us to "Think Big":
[www.jesus-teachings.com]

Discussion about censorship on the internet, started by Ross:
[www.jesus-teachings.com]

A near disaster reminds Rob about just how tenuous our lives are:
[www.jesus-teachings.com]

Comments on the movie, "The Matrix", by Epsillion:
[www.jesus-teachings.com]

Discussions about the Exclusive Brethren from a young ex-member of that group:
[www.jesus-teachings.com]

A new look at the whole idea of prosperity, and what it means for a true Christian, by Simon:
[www.jesus-teachings.com]

Some thoughts about Vanity, started by Catherine:
[www.jesus-teachings.com]

How do we change the system (or CAN we change it)? by Alf:
[www.jesus-teachings.com]

We have a young new disciple, name Trevor who met us while visiting Australia from Canada.

.....and keeping him out of Canada, would certainly help isolate him from anyone he knew,

.....who might question this decision!

When Trevor "forsook all" what became of the goods and cash he handed over to the JC's we might ask....if Trevor ever elected to leave, he wouldn't be entitled to a penny in recompense, no matter how many years of faithful service he had put in...No records are kept and the permitted bank account holders are simply the most trusted cronies of McKay....Trevor has no "voting rights" in relation to community funds OTHER than that he continues to endorse selling McKay as the primary object of the community

(....were he to suggest otherwise, he would be subject to humiliation in "grievance meetings" until he recapitualted....or then be tossed aside, minus all that he has just contributed financially needless to say...!)

Trevor has no doubt, just been defrauded of all that he owns...and if McKay can help it, Trevor will also spend years in unpaid servitude, "going into the whole world and teaching people to DISobey that which Christ has commanded" ...(in order to then "worship" the maniacally, self important McKay.....)

Once again, let me say, that the "distinctive beliefs" the JesusChristians kid themselves, that they hold are legally irrelevant.

The JC's are just so much "organized crime" for the criminally insane McKay!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2010 06:09PM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

NEW POSTING ON YOUTUBE FROM "TREVORSMOTHER"

My son has become a member of this group. I need aid. He was visiting family members in Australia then suddenly he met these people on a street corner and he went off with them. He came back only long enough to collect his luggage and his money, then no one saw him again for 2 weeks until he came back to withdraw all the money he had in his savings account which was over $21,000 Canadian. He took every penny he had saved for all these years and he is gone with those 3 people who came with him.

[www.youtube.com]