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Tell us please, what do you see as being David's main faults or flaws in character and /or leadership style? What do you see as his strongest strengths? Where and when do you think he went wrong, if you do think that he did?

I think it mostly revolves around fathers. His father, our fathers. Lack of effective fathering, whether too effeminate or too harsh or absent altogether. I lacked a father who spent time with me. I looked for a leader, a guru who could be my substitute father. Dave was more of a father to me than my own, sad to say, and I would guess that is true for many current members. It is difficult to assume too much, but I suspect that Dave had issues with his own father.

DM's strengths? He is not uncourageous in his stunts. He works hard. He is determined. He is intelligent. He has big dreams.

I don't know if he "went wrong" or that the wrong in him was always there. As I have said before, his biggest weakness is that he wants to be right more than he wants to express love. He will sacrifice love and compassion in order to fulfil an ideological imperative. Then there is the issue of mental stability, (such as swings between feasting and fasting) and an obsessive compulsive streak (such as with toothpaste, ex members will know what i'm talking about!)

Yes, his mother told me that DM never got along with his father. This explains a lot about him. Good and valuable insights. Thank you.

David, in the JK show you say that one of Cherry's high school classmates died in Jonestown with her children. What was that person's name or initials, please?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2007 02:06PM by zeuszor.

zeuszor, I think some of the questions are raising are very good and allow others to contribute. You however, make the mistake of mentioning again something you learnt on the phone and I think that is best is you tried not to bring that matter up again.

I also feel some of the language used on the forum (not only from you) and personal comments are unecessary and only help to foster the persecution felt by the Jesus Christians and that this forum is just a personal fight between certain parties. We should all work to create an environment where everyone can share and feel supported.

Readers of the forum, not directly involved, will be trying to gauge whether we are simply making hateful statements or have some valid points of concern.

I was interested in your comments cultmalleous about the distribution of books.

Was/is there a sales patter? Were some members more sucessful in gaining donatons due to how they framed their approach? Could you or the others perhaps give some examples of what worked and what didn't?

My view is that the introduction of the books was a good tactic. Even though the production costs are higher.

Before if you asked for, "a few cents to cover printing", that's what you might have got.

But a book, evenly poorly printed as they are, surely people are more inclined to give more? What do others think?

The distribution of books in this way could be called a "Cottage Industry".

Here is a fascinating email interview with Dave McKay regarding the earning of money, cottage industries, and getting a pension.

[www.truechristianity.com]

Some interesting things David says here:

"The reference to "earning more than a pension" seems to set an arbitrary cut-off point between the wicked and the just... a cut-off that I do not find in the teachings of Jesus. In fact, a pensioner in Australia would be quite rich by world standards, and I think that God tends to judge by such universal standards rather than making cultural exceptions for those of us who happen to be born into rich families or into rich countries."


"But the real question is why do we need a "medium" line in the first place? It's a good way to illustrate how rich we really are (because the rich always feel like they need "just a little more"), but the bottom line is that Jesus said nothing about medium lines. He was not teaching a theory that would only work if everyone did it (as in socialism), but he was teaching a standard for entry into his kingdom that would recognise God alone as our provider... not the government (through pensions), not an employer, not a cottage industry, not anything but God.

We have been living like this for many years now, and every time I hear about Christians who are supposedly in a money-making industry for God, I hear Jesus saying, "The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few." Despite this crazy lifestyle that we live, the need has always been for more workers and not for more money. And I think that that is how is has always been in God's kingdom.

I hope that I have not offended you in what I have said. I really would like to encourage you in the direction that you are heading. But I think that until you have the faith to hit your pension on the head, you are only going to be preaching something that others do not see you practising yourself. "

This is an issue I have brought up before on this forum, and I've had replies that David talks about "spoiling Egypt" to cover the fact that he takes a Government pension. Not so here! Oh no! He proudly advises that until you give up the pension then you are not for real!


So.....when is David McKay going to hit his pension on the head and stop preaching something for others that he is not practising himself? Hmmmm.......

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zeuszor
Neither one. He's neither person, Jason, I assure you.

The Question was for private eys

'private eys who are you, are you david lowe or dave mckay'

He's preaching the same thing here:

'Smash your pride. Pluck out your emotionalism. Cut off your visible means of support. So that you can begin (right now!) to live by faith in the eternal kingdom of heaven."

[www.missionu.org]

So much preaching. So much Government Pension.

When are you going to address this obvious reason for people to doubt you are really sincere, David?

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I was interested in your comments cultmalleous about the distribution of books.

Was/is there a sales patter? Were some members more sucessful in gaining donatons due to how they framed their approach? Could you or the others perhaps give some examples of what worked and what didn't?

My view is that the introduction of the books was a good tactic. Even though the production costs are higher.

Before if you asked for, "a few cents to cover printing", that's what you might have got.

But a book, evenly poorly printed as they are, surely people are more inclined to give more? What do others think?

I was never in the JC's when they started distributing books.

The best ever distributor of tracts was one woman, who has long ago left, who secretly kept a bank account and kept topping up her "donies" from it. She was thought to be a real "shiner" of a disciple. She would get out 200 tracts with 20 cent average donies (from memory). She made everyone else work so much harder, but they just couldn't match this "shining example". She later on had a vision of the "Fall of America" which launched a huge campaign of tract distributing across the USA predicting that the then Soviet Union would launch a nuclear attack on America.

During this campaign the Soviet Union and the Berlin Wall fell.

I was never any good at distributing. I disliked doing it quite a lot.

The tactic was to put the tract in the hand and then make the request for money and make it seem like it was required. Many people just gave something to get rid of you. It's sort of between selling and begging.

jason 25. I am neither Dave McKay or David Lowe. Care to share who you are?

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"I was never in the JC's when they started distributing books.

The best ever distributor of tracts was one woman, who has long ago left, who secretly kept a bank account and kept topping up her "donies" from it. She was thought to be a real "shiner" of a disciple. She would get out 200 tracts with 20 cent average donies (from memory). She made everyone else work so much harder, but they just couldn't match this "shining example". She later on had a vision of the "Fall of America" which launched a huge campaign of tract distributing across the USA predicting that the then Soviet Union would launch a nuclear attack on America.

During this campaign the Soviet Union and the Berlin Wall fell.

I was never any good at distributing. I disliked doing it quite a lot.

The tactic was to put the tract in the hand and then make the request for money and make it seem like it was required. Many people just gave something to get rid of you. It's sort of between selling and begging."


Thank you for that feedback cultmalleous. Yes, I think the large distribution was in Sacramento if my research memory serves me right. The Revival Centre there is allegedly of significance to Dave.

It is interesting that a someone would top up there "donies" to curry favour. I guess there must have been some pressure to meet targets?

Although you weren't involved in the book distribution, you probably can see what I mean regarding the potential income. Using your example. If it cost 1 cent to print the little tract and you "sold" 200 at 20 cents, you would return $ 40.00 (less $ 2.00 costs).

However, if you start distributing books that may cost say 50 cents to print and people give you between $ 1.00 and $ 5.00 because they perceive they are getting something of greater value, you potential earnings start to become quite significant. Then it of course becomes a quantity game. Getting out as many as you can.

Given the membership hasn't increased greatly ( although I guess you could argue it has doubled since the split). There doesn't seem much point to the literature distribution, apart from its fundraising potential.