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zuesor
I am further sorry to hear about the recent passing of Grace's father. How you spoken with your mom lately, Grace?

Brian, I will post here my answer, in case you or others did not catch it on the JC forum.

I don't know where you get your information, Brian, but my father has not passed away. He is in the hospital at the moment, but he is very likely to go home tomorrow. And the biggest reason for his recent hospital stay is doctors' mistakes. He is in pretty OK health for an almost 58 year old man who has been through a lot of health issues.

To answer your question, yes I have spoken to my mother. In fact, I was on the phone with her 20 minutes ago and I call her almost every other day. But is that really any of your (or anyone else's) business?

And now I have to wonder what your motives are for posting such a lie. If it was only concern due to misinformation, than I thank you.

Oh yeah, and I want to add a genuine "thanks" to the RRmod who allowed "aghast"'s (Dave's brother) post to show up and for allowing mine to be here too.

FunkyPunkyG. Cool name!

Firstly, I am definetely not going to take any responsibility for Zseusor's post re your Father. Not my bad.

I do believe that it was concern due to misinformation.

Wasn't it Mark Twain who said, "reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated", after a false report that he was dead?

I am sure, you know who, is taking his foot out of his mouth and is embarrassed by his gaff and leading us all astray. But happy to hear your dad is alive and getting better as I am sure we all are.

It's great your talking to your Mum and Dad. Members of the Forum are concerned that all members of the Jesus Christian have the opportunity to speak freely to their parents. Believe it or not...nobody hates you, although we may not always show it. I suspect Dave gets a few of us angry from time to time and we say and do things we regret from time to time.

FreeofDM. A book is always a possibly in this matter, but I won't be writing it. My aim is of course to have accurate and factual information out in the public arena, not simply Dave's version of reality. That way people can make a more informed choice regarding whether they wish to be associated with Dave and his so called, Jesus Christians or not.

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Dogmother
Aghast, your post is understandable and the correct way to behave towards your lovely, elderly mother.

This said, the cruelest deed of all came from your brother Dave and his reaction has left many of us aghast.

Why in the world would Dave want to distress his mother by pointing out to her she made a mistake? Reading to her a posting on the phone and surely slanting it with his frightful paranoia? How can she possible comprehend she made such an error simply by praying on the phone with other mothers? Why does Dave feel he needs to control her when her instincts as a human being and as a Christian are beyond reproach?

I agree with Private Eye that contact with Mrs. McKay should have been solely left to the mothers, but in Zeuzsor's defence I have to say that I know him to be a respectful and sensitive man who has a most loving relationship with his own mother. That is a good sign, is it not? Zeuzsor would not treat anyone's mother in a way he does not want his mother to be treated.

And there is the difference. Motherhood is universal and does not have to defend itself.

Isn't that what the grandmother said on the Jeremy Kyle show after Dave defamed and ridiculed her on his forum?

Two wrongs of course don't make a right. I propose a Truth of Peace and Goodwill to us all for the Holidays in honor of Mrs. McKay and all our mothers throughout the world. We are in this time and space together for a reason, teacher and pupil at all times.

"Two wrongs don't make a right."

That's true.

"Fight fire with fire."

That's also true.

I do not apologize for what I did. I am not sorry that I called her, and I do not regret having called her. I do, however, regret reporting on it so impetuously. The encounter would have made its way onto the JC forum first anyway, and with DM's spin on it, as soon as DM heard about it from his mom. At least I got to present the "no spin" version.

Eyes, I would have eventually gotten her contact info anyway, and have distributed copies of my JC dossier to everybody that I have come in contact with: ITV, the Wall Street Journal, local medical professionals. A lot of people have that data now. It's all over the world.

Come on, it's amazing to me that nobody's done that yet, try and interview DM's family members after all these years. Give me a break.

Whatever distress anybody in the McKay family might have experienced over this episode pales in comparison to the ongoing distress inflicted by DM upon the families of his group members.

Thanks for your support Dogmother. Yes, it's true, I have introduced Dogmother to MY OWN MOTHER and have always aimed to portray myself with absolute transparency here.

I did what I did with the blessing and under the counsel of other concerned mothers, and was not acting as a "Lone Ranger" on that operation.

Sic semper tyrannus, McKay. You can dish it out, but you can't take it. Turnabout is fair play, huh?

Oh, yeah, and Grace: that must have been misinformation...Al told me that your father was ill, and then a couple weeks ago informed me that he had actually DIED. Al's also the one who gave me those photos of you guys in the camper van and all. Al's been playing both sides for months, the troll.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2007 04:23AM by zeuszor.

Aghast... I completely agree with you that you, your other brothers, and your elderly mother are to be left alone. Zueszor in no way, as far as I am concerned, represents the sentiments or overall approach of ex members in deaaling with, and exposing of, the Jesus Christians group. His actions are the actions of a "loose canon" rolling all over a deck blasting holes in things indiscriminately.

FunkyPunkyG... Thanks for the grace you showed towards an intrusive statement made publicly about your father's health.

Cultmalleous... I agree that the forum has degenerated somewhat. I too have been tossing up whether to remain here as the thread seems to have been hijacked by some who use a Jesus Christian approach of the "end justifies the means", hence the contact with Dave's elderly mother. It really does appear that Zueszor's approach is by and large a source of embarrassment to ex members.

Dave... You purportedly run a public open "forum", why do you not let ex members post on it?

Look, I would not have done that without taking the counsel and receiving the blessings of a couple of the mothers of present and past JCs, and am not a "Lone Ranger" here. It was a considered risk, the calls, a gamble for sure. I expected that people would be upset with me over it. But "loose cannon?" No. It was a sort of collaborative effort. Not to try an escape responsibility, as I know what I did, I just don't want you to think that I am out here all half-cocked.

Hey aghast, if you really are McKay's brother, please tell us the first initial of the first name of the first person to call Alice McKay, the person who called her even before I did. Give us some kind of hint, if not an initial, give us something. Can you do that please, so that we can know you are genuine and not one of McKay's drones??

I'll close and leave you for now with a quote from Ozzy:

I've listened to preachers
I've listened to fools
I've watched all the dropouts
Who make their own rules
One person conditioned
To rule and control
The media sells it
And you live the role
Mental wounds still screaming
Driving me insane
I'm going off the rails on a crazy train



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2007 05:12AM by zeuszor.

What Zeuszor has done (accomplished) here at this forum is not unprecedented. It would seem rather naive to try and 'protect' the wider milieu of Dave McKay. It is actually quite logical to investigate all threads of his life. I mean, if he were Charles Manson or Adolf Hitler some journalist at some point would have to make contact with their friends, associates, family, etc. As I have stated, there are 'rules' to protect these innocent individuals. You'd be surprised how truly powerful it is just to say, 'No comment!'

But I don't think it is prudent to censor any avenues of knowledge. For sure, our ability to exchange information is now quite unprecedented. We have to deal with this openly and honestly. But the basic premise remains that what you communicate will always have the possibility of coming back to bite you on the bum. And that's okay. In most cases, especially at this forum, individuals exhibit healthy levels of humility (and, if not, few are shy to pull them up).

Yeah, it can be quite regrettable at times when what you've posted is questioned and/or questionable (I'm the first to admit that I don't have all the answers and that there are times, perhaps with this posting, that I regret having done so). I'm okay with that because I believe in the scientific method, i.e. imagine the regret of innumerable scientists who publish their findings in a respected journal only to have it ridiculed. That's the way it is. Just move on and learn from your mistakes.

I'm not suggesting that Zeuszor has posted any false information. In fact, I think he is fully aware of the consequences of doing such because he is now a willing public figure regarding this topic. And I think Zeuszor wouldn't do anything that he wouldn't want done to himself. I wonder if McKay will call Zeuszor's mother and ask her about his son?

And for all of Zeuszor's zeal and enthusiasm, he has exhibited almost equal measures of humility and sensitivity.

And I will state again that it is dangerously naive to selectively censor what is posted here by other posters. Folks, we have guidelines, moderators and the ability to question each other. So, let's not selectively question the motives and information of only one or two persons when a possible JC disguised as a McKay family member is in the works. Let's stick to the facts as well as we can.

And please note, that there was an incident a while ago where personal information was disclosed on this thread that was duly removed by the moderators.

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zeuszor
... And yes, I told her exactly what I was going to do, that I was going to write a kind of article about it. She did not protest, and was quite open and frank.

Folks, let's not get ahead of ourselves. Let's not resort to getting on our moralistic high-horses and judge Zeuszor as a liar until the validity of this statement can be verified. I can't help thinking how this must be affecting not only Zeuszor but also Alice's chance to speak her mind. Are we censoring her too?

For the sake of this mission, let's stay calm and collected.

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zeuszor
Hey aghast, if you really are McKay's brother, please tell us the first initial of the first name of the first person to call Alice McKay, the person who called her even before I did. Give us some kind of hint, if not an initial, give us something. Can you do that please, so that we can know you are genuine and not one of McKay's drones??

Take it from me Zeus. It is one of Dave's brothers.

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Jack
What Zeuszor has done (accomplished) here at this forum is not unprecedented. It would seem rather naive to try and 'protect' the wider milieu of Dave McKay. It is actually quite logical to investigate all threads of his life. I mean, if he were Charles Manson or Adolf Hitler some journalist at some point would have to make contact with their friends, associates, family, etc. As I have stated, there are 'rules' to protect these innocent individuals. You'd be surprised how truly powerful it is just to say, 'No comment!'

Here's the thing, Jack, we are not dealing with Charles Manson or Adolf Hitler. Such comments in no way foster continued communication or promote rational discourse. Dave does not loom that big in my mind.

What exactly has Zeus accomplished? All I see is a wake of destruction similar to what dave leaves behind him, and if people are thinking that dave will somehow have an epiphany as a result... think again.

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Jack
For the sake of this mission, let's stay calm and collected.

Yes let's.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2007 09:55AM by apostate.

I think the REAL reason that more (most) exJCs have not come forward has nothing to do with me or anything I have done; it is because deep down, there is a part of each of them that still believes in DM and the "special" mission of the JCs.

They generally seem still think of him, in some ways, as a friend and hope to be able to reason with him and prompt some change. There's still a lot of fear of DM among exJCs in general too. I can understand that. I can relate to it. It can take years for the ex-members to work their own ways though the damage in their hearts and minds.

This is my opinion, my theory.

I will remind the group that I used to be a member of a Bible-based, abusive pseudo-Christian group too and can relate to that personally to a degree, that residual idealism, the sadness in losing a dream, the anger of disillusionment after leaving such a group. Trinity Foundation (TFI) is dedicated to rooting out, investigating and exposing the frauds and charlatans in the Christian world. This mission is why I joined them to begin with. I wanted to help go after the bad guys, certain high-profile Bible-based abusive groups, the televangleists, and the "prophets of profit." The thing is, Ole Anthony is about the biggest fraud of all, and somebody's already written a book exposing him. He is literally right in my own neighborhood. That ground is well-covered.

[www.culteducation.com]

www.dallascult.com

www.trinityfi.org

In theory, I still believe in TFI's ostensible mission. In a sense, I suppose, I never really left TFI. I still investigate and work to expose the pseudo-Christian "bad guys" in our midst. It's just that I've narrowed my focus to just investigating one group and it's leader. DM and the Jesus Christians are obscure enough, and volatile enough, to have held my attention for this long. They simply frighten me and always have, since first we've met. That's why I have monitored them for all these years, and will continue to do so, and consistently. Somebody has to do it. I just happen to be, like, the American operative and there are others around the world. As far as I know, there is nobody else on the North American continent who has done as much research on the JCs as I have. It's not a boast; it's simply true.

I will further remind you that it was you, Apostate, who got me involved with this in the first place, like a year and a half ago, right after I left TFI.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion and I can't begrudge anybody theirs.

Anyway, thanks for your time and consideration. And thanks for your support, Jack. More later. peace be with you all.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2007 11:47AM by zeuszor.