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Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by: Fran ()
Date: September 12, 2006 08:28PM

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zeuszor
SumYou probably remember me too Fran. I visited you JCs once in Dallas in Spring/Summer 2002 and you all gave me the willies.

Hi, Brian. Yes, I remember you. I don't know what giving someone "the willies" is, though. Is it being afraid?


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zeuszor
As a whole, you just all seemed to be a pretty pissed off bunch to me. I saw no fruit of the spirit in my brief visit, just judgementalism and anger.

Yeah, well considering you only stayed for about 15 minutes, I guess it would be hard to tell! Also, you seem to have forgotten that you spent hours on the phone telling me about all your problems and chopping and changing about whether you were going to come or not. I think later you turned up without telling us you were coming, so naturally we were caught a bit off-guard. Just as you were trying to figure us out, we were also trying to figure you out as you seemed to be so unstable and we weren't sure if you had any mental health problems. That probably explains why we were a little reserved in the few minutes you stayed.

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zeuszor
I remember the Bible study I sat in on was called "No More Mister Nice Guy."

Yes, that's right, it was that study. I think you literally ran off after the first paragraph, jumping over the top of one of us on your way to the door. You could have simply asked to leave. But your very unusual departure made us think that perhaps we were right in being a bit reserved with you.

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And you were all skinny and dirty and smelled bad. Call me superficial, but is this the way to bring people to Jesus?

In such an overweight society as the American one, I can see how we would look very thin. That is becuase we try to eat moderately and we excercise regularly. Perhaps I could have showered too! However, like I said, you didn't give us any warning that you were going to land on our front door, so we didn't have the time to get ready after a hard day's work to entertain guests. But yeah, I would say you are being superficial, since that seems to be your main grievance against us (one that was formed only in an unexpected 15 minute visit!)

I'm sorry to hear of you bad experiences of the war in Iraq. I hope that you do get good counselling to help you cope with the pressure you must have been under there.

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Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by: Fran ()
Date: September 12, 2006 10:25PM

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zeuszor
The Reserved Articles sections state that "We are not trying to be secretive, but we are trying to get people to read the most important articles (those that are freely available) first." Well, my Bible is freely available, so shouldn't any and all Bible studies be so too? That kind of secrecy makes you look real, real suspicious. Come on, you know it's true.

I think the website also says that anyone is free to email us and ask for any of the restricted articles, stating why they want to read it. I don't think we have ever denied anyone who emailed us and was interested in reading them free access to those articles.

I agree with you that people who want to see evil in us will see that as suspicious. On the other hand, people who are genuinely interested in reading the articles write to us asking for them and so they get access to them. It all depends on what your motives are for reading them.

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Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by: Fran ()
Date: September 12, 2006 10:29PM

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Xenophone
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zeuszor
Hey Xenophone, spills the beans, man: what are the "private teachings"? The secret Jesus Christian handshakes? :lol:

As for so called "secret handshakes" amongst the JCs, there really aren't many, but I have noticed at least one. This was one that I used to do with another JC there, so I know it exists.

How it works is two JCs would meet in a public/private place after not seeing eachother for a certain amount of time. They would then do what can only be described as a combination between a high-5 and a regular handshake. After this they would probably hug momentarily and then ask eachother a variance of "How's are you?" or "How's it going?". This was usually followed be conversation.

NOTE: Some of them bypass the hand gestures all together and go straight to the hug.


Ahhhh, the dry humoured James that I love and remember!! :D

We had good times too, didn't we? I hope that our differences in ideologies don't stop us from remembering those. Love ya, bro. Fran.

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Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by: Fran ()
Date: September 12, 2006 10:52PM

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cultmalleus
Wasting your life Fran working for Dave is sad.

Yes, it would be sad if I was wasting my life working for Dave. However, I didn't join the JCs because I liked Dave. I joined them because they were (and still are) the group that more closely resembles a practical application of the teachings of Jesus.

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cultmalleus
Doesnt it make you frustrated that you want to go out and serve the underpriviledged and downtrodden yet so much of your life is wasted on Dave's sensationalism and attempts to gain media attention?

I can't see how I am not serving the underpriveleged and downtrodden. And hardly any of my time has been spent at all on media attention.

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cultmalleus
You could achieve so much more for Love and God and Humanity outside of the group.

Please give clear examples of how you are serving Love, God and Humanity more effectively on your own without cooperation from others who are like-minded. Are you self-employed? What kind of work do you do? How are you more effective in showing a practical application of the teachings of Jesus?

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cultmalleus
This sensationalism is not "preaching the Gospel". Neither are those booklets. How many are actually read? Have you ever done a survey?

Have you ever done a survey? We receive dozens of letters every week from people who say that their lives have been deeply touched by our literature, that it has increased their faith, and that it has deepened their relationship with God. Many people also claim that they were either atheists or agnostics but that after reading our material they have gained a new faith in God.

Considering that only a small percentage of people who actually read something go to extra effort to write to the authors and share their comments, I would say that I high percentage of people actually read the stuff we give them, even if they do not agree with it. Do you have proof of a lot of people NOT reading our material?

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cultmalleus
Neither would he like any evidence about the efficacy of corporal punishment. Read this:[en.wikipedia.org]

I read the article you gave the link for. It had arguments for and against corporal punishment. I don't understand what your point is. Besides you are missing the fact that we are talking about people actually choosing corporal punishment as opposed to incarceration.

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cultmalleus
What happened to the revelation of the "Fall of America"?

I don't know what you mean by that question. We still believe that America will fall one day. You can read about it in our book Survivors and Armageddon for Beginners.

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Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: September 12, 2006 11:21PM

Fran:

What other groups and/or organizations would you point people to as viable alternatives to the JCs?

Is there another group that exists today that you think is spiritually equal and therefor a viable and equal alternative to the JCs?

Do you think any of the criticism about the JCs or Dave is warranted?

What do you think either Dave and/or the group has done wrong?

How could the JCs be improved?

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Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: September 13, 2006 12:05AM

Yes, I have been, and continue to be, in therapy. I am on medication (Prozac) and was under a doctor's care even while in Iraq. I am kinda eccentric, praise God, but not totally off my rocker. :-) Glad you are doing well, James. You're the one who originally gave me a Liberator, man. Small world.

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Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: September 13, 2006 12:19AM

Hi Fran. Look, I'm not saying I probably didn't come off like a nut, because back then I was all OCD-ed out and not as mature as I am now. You gotta laugh. At least I do...but I am quite certain that I dod not sow up unannounced, in fact you kept your specific location a secret from me and it was James and another guy (he was from New Orleans but I forget his name) that picked me up from the 7-11 on Greenville Ave. and Park Lane. No, I am 100% certain that you were expecting me and you even offered to pick me up from the Greyhound station. I am certain of this.

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Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by: matilda ()
Date: September 13, 2006 03:03AM

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Fran
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cultmalleus


I am not sure if it has been mentioned or not in this thread so far (as I haven't had time to read all the posts in detail yet) but I think a significant point that may have been missed is that Dave disbanded the community over a year ago. We split up into smaller autonomous teams of which Xenophone and his wife was one. So, although you later felt that you wished not to be associated at all with the JCs, I think you can appreciate that you were in fact autonomous for quite some time before that happened.


You mean Dave restructured the community.

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Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by: matilda ()
Date: September 13, 2006 03:18AM

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apostate
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cultmalleus
zeusor, I can tell you one of the secret teachings is called "Honest to Whom" which is basically a justification for lying to "systemites" who, really, boils down to anyone who is not in their group. Indeed, it is one of the JC's most fundamental teachings that you must learn to lie to protect and defend the group. They start from the idea that Bible smugglers into Communist China may have to lie to cross the border but end up using this to justify widespread and constant lying by the group to outsiders. Group members always "cover" their leadership and pretend that decisions are by consensus when really decisions are made by Dave wearing down opposition by meetings that can go on practically all night long. Dave has frequently embarked on deception and lying to try and make a media controversy, for just one example, witness "Anita" [www.guardian.co.uk]

The "grievance system" is the way to ensure conformity by Dave enlisting everyone else to peer pressure the odd one out and to enforce starvation ("fasting and prayer") as punishment if they do not conform. Unity and loyalty are absolute imperatives. Intelligent and independant thinking members have eventually left in disgust. Of Dave's 4 children, 3 are completely alienated from him and want nothing to do with him.

His fruit is rotten.

Hey hey hey, Cultmaleus, remember those times the community all sat around writing out bogus job applications to get unemployment benefits, and the leaving behind a wad of signed blank cheques for the treasurer to be able to access the funds while some members were out of the country? I was always a bit curious about the surgical equipment steralizer that turned up in India as it was stolen from Deakin university. Yep "Honest to whom" was a beauty. I know for a fact that Dave would deliberately lie as a way of sowing "misinformation" to the "enemy", i.e. those outside his group.

By the way, Cultmalleus, my understanding is that the grievance system that you and I remember has now been replaced by a panel of "leaders" who make judgements.

Good to hear from you again. We could chin wag for ages... and what better location than a cult busters website. Shine a little light on Dave McKay's nonsense, eh.

I think the one child Dave has left behind in the group is more about her trying to please him and win his favour than anything else. It really is quite sad. Dave does not show love or acceptance to his other kids, as his "fatherhood" towards them is dependent upon them being completely subserviant. What a pity. He is missing out on so much.

Hi Apostate,
You must have been in during the witches of Deakin times Dave wrote about. Did you really get government benefits at that time?
I think Cherry still claims benefits in Oz because of her medical condition. even though they are rich enough for Dave to travel around the globe every year.

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Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by: apostate ()
Date: September 13, 2006 09:27AM

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Xenophone

Yeah, my apologies, I should have heard you out. I do remember that Divine authority article.

I personally don't have a problem with the idea of having an anointed leader. Its just that with the JCs they have this divine authority teaching at the same time they mock other churches for not their lack of spirituality because they follow their leaders.

No probs Xenophone, Yeah, Dave is a hypocrite.

I guess I have more of a problem with the whole "annointed" leader thing. Dave likes to separate and categorise people into "leaders" and "followers"... how demeaning.

Dave fits the hallmarks of a codependent individual in that he needs people to depend on him. When they no longer depend on them, he tries to make them do so, if they do not comply he discards them to look elsewhere for someone to depend on him. He is dependent on such relationships. Without it he cannot function. He whole "annointed leader" premise is based upon this.

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