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rrmoderator
ashwyn:
People posting here wish to discuss the group and its effects, this includes affected families and former members.

Thanks for your response, although I was a little interested in something deeper. Discussion is an action, wheras I am looking for a purpose, what is the desired result? I think that if you (collectively) have complaints about the JCs that you truly wish to have resolved, then there may perhaps be more effective and non-confrontational ways to resolve them. If the thread is just a place for people to support each other, then the approach would be understandably different.

apostate:

Once again I appreciate your response. You talk of the purpose of this thread being to encourage people like myself to question the unethical and decietful practices of the JCs. If I can help you to be a little more effective in this, one way would be to approach me a little less confrontationally than you have just now.

When I ask a question, starting your reply with "the answer is not..." does not help me at all. This is especially true when the reason you have given the false answer appears to be just a avenue for taking a shot at what you believe I believe. If you want to discuss the 'whipping' issue further, then just ask.

You have given the answer at the end of your paragraph. That dealing with Dave's behaviour means discussing it. The reason I asked this question, is because I believe that if you have a valid complaint, the best way to deal with it, is not only to discuss what he is doing wrong, but encourage him to change. Part of this is looking for constructive solutions and even compromises if ideal solutions cannot be reached.

It is disturbing that you were encouraged to hear that I was unable to give a kidney, due to discussion on an online forum. If what you say is true, there must be a serious breach of hospital privacy regulations, which I would deem unethical. I can assure you that I have heard no such news myself.

I can also assure you that I truly have more difficulty than I ever did before joining the JCs in accepting, condoning, or practicing unethical behaviour. Not only that, but my perception of what is unethical has widened, not shrunk. Again, if you have a specific in mind that you wish to discuss, just ask.

Craig
I agree it is a wonderful thing to give up possessions for love.
It is wonderful to hope and pray for the redemption of ourselves and others. It is wonderful to work for God and Love full time, in faith, but in freedom.

We went to work with Dave for Love and God and we thought we had to give up our freedom to do so.

I think Friends have a much better idea of the spirit than many churches.
I do not hate Dave.
I believe he has many issues from childhood that he would do well to understand and resolve and I pray and hope that he does.
I believe most, if not all people currently in the "Jesus Christians" would be better off spiritually to be out of it and this would be a redemption.
Friends are harmless as doves but I am concerned that they are not perhaps as wise as serpents to be able to see beyond the surface.

When people have been deeply controlled by a bully they are often angry and they express this anger. They also rejoice in their freedom to finally be able to criticise Dave when they have had to suppress so much for so long. It can be hard for people who have never gotten so deep to understand this.

No-one here is angry about Dave because of the teachings of Jesus that he espouses. We are angry that he manipulated us by using certain interpretations of the teachings of Jesus to make us go along with things that are completely against the spirit of Jesus.

ashwyn:

You say,

Quote

complaints about the JCs that you truly wish to have resolved, then there may perhaps be more effective and non-confrontational ways to resolve them.

But Dave McKay essentially controls the JCs and the complaints process. In an authoritarian group like the JCs there is no meaningful way to address and/or resolve serious complaints about the leader.

The purpose of this message board thread is to afford communication between those that have been hurt by Dave McKay. And also to provide information to the general public through the Internet about the harm he has done to others.

Quakerboy:

The same rules apply to everyone.

I think people here have treated you reasonably. And I encourage them to remain reasonable.

Many former members do pray for Dave McKay.

Frankly, I am more concerned about his victims.

My experience over the years is that cult leaders rarely repent and change.

But if you wish to pray for Dave McKay please feel free do so.

Dear Friend Craig,

The wounds are still fresh for many on this forum (even while David is busy creating more wounds elsewhere) so you’ll have to exercise a little of the understanding I know that you'll have as a Quaker. I apologize if I was a little abrupt in my previous response to you.

As the Moderator has pointed out in several of his postings, those who either engage in criticism of David McKay or who defend him should be able to give some grounds for the reasons for their opinions…..you state that you have met David (or other members of the Jesus Christians?) at a recent Gathering where JC was distributed, amongst other places. (Why do you think they would need to distribute literature about themselves in a Gathering I might add?) Cultmalleous provided some background for the many of the critics here (i.e. Years of active commitment to the JC’s)

I’m sorry friend, but you did not provide all the details on the extent to which you have personally dealt with David. The (admittedly biased) opinion I have is that the overwhelming number of people who know him personally (i.e. have lived in the JC community), despise him, and people who don’t know him well, sometimes “respect” him. Which of these groups of people do you think do you think might more commonly meet the standards required of evidence in a court of law?

Are you aware that the Quakers are not David’s “first love”? If you are serious in wanting to discern the truth, I’m sure that you would be prepared to ask David why he is no longer a member of the Churches in Medowie, New South Wales and what became of the mass conversion of JC’s to Catholicism? (……other organizations that briefly “served a purpose” for the Jesus Christians, before being unceremoniously abandoned). A “seeker of truth” of course would confirm the verity of their sources too, by later corroborating whatever seemingly plausible “fable” David may select for the occasion.

If, in Gods’ ineffable wisdom, David McKay is briefly able to inspire a more Godly walk among the Quakers (he has a talent for identifying spiritual weaknesses in others), then in consideration of the experiences of others, I recommend that the wider Quaker movement, use him, “stab-him-in-the-back” and then dump him ….. as all the evidence suggests that that is what he is going to do to you!!!



While I can never make the absolute commitment to Pacifism that being a full member of the Quakers demands, ( I would probably, really only qualify for membership to the “Society of Distant Acquaintances") perhaps I failed to mention that my penchant for shooting North Koreans was largely limited to the exceptional “life-or-death” circumstances of inadvertently being swept up in the front line of a surprise military assault….

(Warning….The following imagery may be distressing and parental guidance is recommended.....!)

However suitably chastened I have momentarily locked away the Russian SVD (Snayperskaya Vintovka Dragunova which I picked up for a song in the Russian black market in Pusan) and I no longer entertain myself by driving up to the banks of the Han river in the early dawn, and training the scope on the North Korean soldiers in the distance, across the way….but anyway, mercifully owing to my strict religious beliefs I have restrained myself from picking any of them off to date, (…..well okay except for the half dozen who had the misfortune to superficially look a little like David McKay…..)


Oh, we musn’t jest must we!!


Sweet loveable family guy “Mal”

Dear Ash,

Again you have had the gumption to post here in a “hostile” environment, so I thank you for the trouble you have taken. Naturally, as everyone on this site has “been there and done that” in relation to your current engagement with the Jesus Christians, there gets to be a “world weariness” to the criticisms aired. While you need to do, what you genuinely believe God to be asking of you, everyone here is likely to assure you that there is nothing worthwhile you that could do in the JesusChristians, that you couldn’t be doing externally to it!

As you are probably aware David has been “negotiating” in “all earnestness” with those external to his organization for longer than you have had breath on this earth. Regrettably there are some who now regard “encouraging him to change” with a little cynicism. Perhaps though you would be prepared to act as a go-between here, and ask David (for the sake of a practical example to discuss) why he is no longer a member of any of the Medowie Churches and what became of the mass conversions of JC's to Catholicism? These of course, are the specific examples of “unethical behaviour” that I have just made mention of to Craig (Quakerboy) which I would personally be interested in discussing with you….(you’ll see I’ve as always, drawn the worst conclusions about it all but I’m sure that you’ll be able to correct me!)

If you look back in the pages of the postings you will find that I asked another practical question of Fran (Why the Quakers were just so many “brain-dead” churchies during the time I was member of the JC’s and what had led to the new policy revelation in relation to them)……Fran’s feeble attempt at evasion (He wasn’t in the group at that time….(and apparently doesn’t dare to anger David by asking about a matter that he knows can only cast the JC’s in an unfavourable light)) tends to confirm the adverse impression many people on this forum already hold about dialogue with David or any of the other “leaders” in the JC.

(You will see I was criticized many pages earlier for suggesting a "constructive dialogue" might be possible between existing and former members…..criticism I acknowledged to be accurate once I read what had been the response to the postings of the members of this forum on the JC site......(might it be different post-David???))

If you blatantly ignore this request Ashwyn, or simply attack my right to ask this of you, (I’m not “good enough” to deserve a response)….well some people might be led yet again, to think the less of the JC, and of you for it.

Let’s begin with this one example, shall we?....

(Although, until the many, many detailed incidents of “unethical behaviour” (abuse of administrative process through rigged voting, illegal expulsion of members David has decided he has had enough of, the abuse of the grievance process, deliberate alienation of family, deliberate demonization of those external to the group, extortion of property and person (Betty’s Father in Kenya and Joes Mother in the States, fraudulent misrepresentation, etc) are addressed, the only “constructive solution” we may be able to reach (by way of compromise) is that I’ll go to the expense of providing the mill-stone if you’ll at least supply the rope! (Matthew 18:6) )

Malcolm..just wanted to clarify. I have not met Dave. Some of the Young Friends in our Meeting actually met the Jesus Christians at the Young Friends International Gathering.

That Gathering is comprised of Friends from all branches of Quakerism. It is a place to share, discuss, debate and fellowship. So, it is not unusual for folks to bring "their" literature and share it with others. That is what happened there.

I would hope that the Quakers are not Dave's first love. You know where I'm going with that, yes? :)

Stay away from those N. Koreans Malcolm! And save some kim chee for me.

Peace,
Craig

Hello Quakerboy. I am Ashwyn's mum, tho he is not able to refer to me in that way, as a practising member of the jcs.

I pray for Ashwyn, Dave, the jcs community, and their friends and families every day. I pray that the current members will all grow beyond the need to put Dave's word before Jesus', and come to follow the one Lord.

I also pray for ex-members, who have achieved that freedom and growth.

The universal consensus I have found on this forum is that wrenching oneself from the jcs community may be a step of enormous difficulty, but is a clear step towards healing and wholeness of oneself, one's faith, and hopefully one's family.

love,
Kate

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[i:bb7890224a]Kidney Donation Sabotage Attempt
At the moment, we have bad news to report from Canada. Ash had been approved to donate a kidney to a woman with kidney disease, and the operation had been scheduled, when someone complained to the hospital that Ash was a member of the notorious Jesus Christians, and the operation was called off... at least temporarily. Ash and his recipient never hid the fact that they were Jesus Christians, and the transplant coordinator, biologist, ethicist, psychologist, social worker, and surgeon allpassed him as fit to donate. A date was set and then this came up.

We have some ideas about who notified the hospital, but it's pretty hard to
prove, and they are protecting their source. The saddest part is what this
means to the woman who had her hopes lifted that she would be receiving a kidney. Please pray that we triumph over these hateful gossips who are trying so hard to undermine what we have been trying to do.




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[i:bb7890224a]Basketball comes to Takatifu Gardens

Joe has constructed a backboard and basketball hoop so that local youths can learn and practice basketball in the grounds adjacent to Takatifu Gardens. Who knows? Maybe in the next Olympics Kenya will field a basketball team as good as their running teams!

During the Easter holidays, the regular Saturday afternoon running club has been replaced with games like poison ball, three-legged races, and human wheelbarrow races. Up to 80 children attend each week.

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[i:bb7890224a]"A Tale of Two Cities"

Dave and Ash have been holed up in a hotel room in Canada waiting for Ash's operation to take place. While there they have been able to catch up with a lot of computer type tasks.

Ash has just about completed a new scoring system for all of the articles on the Internet. When it is installed (hopefully in the next few days), anyone who scores an average of 70% of the total points for all of the studies in any one study book will be entitled to a hard copy study book of their choice as a prize. So watch for it!

In the meantime, Dave is pushing on with an Easy English translation of Charles Dickens' "A Tale of Two Cities". He has reported that it is harder than either Shakespeare or Tolstoy to translate into Easy English, although he is hoping to complete the task using only a 1400-word vocabulary.
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[i:bb7890224a]Family Visits

Both Karl and Gidraph visited their families this month, and both families expressed joy that their sons are doing something so positive and meaningful with their lives, even though there is no monetary reward for the work that they do.
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