A person's word should be accepted based on his or her reputation for truth-telling. From what I know about Quakers, they do not believe that one should trick others by making statements which are technically true, but misleading. Integrity, honesty, fair dealings ...
none of these atributes pertain to Mckay. He is a predator and a liar. By defending him, :( quakerboy, you commit an injustice to us ex and present members. We have suffered and are still suffering and so are our families. We were duped, mislead and abused into doing Mckay's bidding.
I can only hope that you, quakerboy, are not a "real" quakerboy, but another one of his underlings, controled and manipulated by him.
Where is Greensboro, quakerboy? What are they smoking in Greenboro these days? :P

Well, interesting feedback! I've actually met some Korean Friends at our Yearly Meeting. Amazing folks! You might be surprised to know that I am a Conservative Quaker. I'm very familiar with Penn, Woolman, Fox, etc. I am also a follower of Jesus...that is first and foremost.

My biggest problem with the posters that have responded is that they question my faith based on me testifying to what I have seen and heard. As one poster said, the Quaker testimony of honesty is above all.

Malcolm...A Quaker who has approached their Monthly Meeting and has been accepted by that MM is a part of my faith community. I may not like all their theology or actions, but I have to trust in the Spirit's work through the local Meeting. I certainly don't have the want or will to contact Seoul Quakers and ask about you. That would just be pure silly in my opinion. For goodness sakes, this is only a board where folks voice their opinion...let's not make it more than that Friend.

Why would you "speak" to another Friend in the manner you have? Are you familiar with Quaker process and Gospel Order? Many of the Friends you know from the Conservative Friends group in the US are probably my friends, so I think you might want to back up and have dialogue with me with understanding, respect and compassion.

Yes, Penn was committed to Biblical principles as am I, but he put more emphasis on the Spirit and the Spirit's moving through the local gathering of Christians (i.e., the Monthly Meeting).

Your post reads more like a threat than a wish to dialogue around this issue. Might I suggest you let your words "season" before you sound off in a public forum to another Friend?

As to the fact that you would have no problem shooting N. Korean's, I will pray for you. "Carry that sword as long as you can Friend."

Moderator...you actually hit on one of my issues with the criticism of Dave. He was in the COG movement for a very short time, yet this is actually used against him over and over. From what I have seen and read, there is really no connection to the COG other than the few months Dave was a member.

As for your statement that because Dave has family issues, he does not qualify as a deacon, elder or evangelist...this shows little knowledge of conservative Quakerism. The Bible is historically NOT the primary inspiration for the believer. Don't get me wrong, the Bible is inspired, but it is the Spirit that leads us into all Truth. After all, Jesus said he would send his Spirit to lead us into Truth, not a book. For how these Truths are tested as to being from God, please see Barclay's Apology (any good Quaker can point you to that). What you write assumes that we are evangelicals...we are not...we are, in the words of Penn, "primitive Christianity revived."

Perhaps Dave has hurt some folks. I can only speak from MY experience with him and the Jesus Christians. The gentle manner of the Jesus Christians is in stark contrast to the rather tart response I have rec'd from my post. It does confirm the passage, "you shall know them by their fruits." The replies have questioned my faith, basically asserted that I am a pothead, am not the "right" kind of Quaker, etc. Given the responses here, I can only conclude that there is so much anger driving the posters that it is virtually impossible to discuss this matter further.

My suspection is that if I met any of you face to face without the ability to hide behind a computer screen, the dialogue would be different. I suspect that you are all kind people and, just as I have done in the past, been caught up in a heated discussion and lashed out because of the anonimity of the internet.

God's peace ya'll,
Craig

quakerboy:

You decided to come to this board and post and your first post was hardly warm or sympathetic, but rather little more than an ad hominem attack.

Please understand that the real issue isn't the tone of McKay's critics, but rather his behavior and the many individuals and families that he has hurt.

Press and television reports have recorded for this for some time. Ironically, McKay has courted the media, but seems unhappy when they actually report what he is doing, rather than some puff piece according to his spin.

The so-called "Jesus Christians" have repeatedly been referred to as a "cult" within media reports.

If you wish to discount the press reports and also the first-hand experiences of former members, families and McKay's own family that is your choice to make.

Again, I think it is sad that some Quakers have been taken in by McKay.

But attempting to attack the people posting here, which you have done from your first post, is not a meaningful response to the bad behavior of Dave McKay and how he has hurt people.

I agree with you that "fruits" offer meaningful evidence of a ministry and a leader.

Dave McKay's fruits include broken families (e.g. his own), bad press, constant complaints regarding his conduct and more former members that have left the group than current ones.

If you wish to ignore all this that's your choice to make, but trying to blame the people posting here won't change the facts.

Dogmother...you asked, "where is Greensboro?" Greensboro is ground zero for Southern Quakerism. We have more Meetings in Greensboro than most any place in the world. Guilford College, a Quaker university is here as is a huge retirement home for Friends. There is a great article in Friends Journal this month on Quakerism in the South.

George Fox actually visited Quakers in NC and that is mentioned in his Journal. Greensboro Quakers date back from the mid 1700's. The range of Quakerism in Greensboro runs from the more Wesleyan influenced, Friends United Meeting to the Wilburite Conservative Friends to liberal Friends General Conference folks.

The most intersting thing about Greensboro is that the underground railroad to free the slaves began here in the Levi Coffin house and the woods around New Garden Meeting. Hundreds of slaves gained their freedom through the bravery of local Quakers.

What are we smoking in Greensboro? Sadly, tobacco still rules :-).

moderator wrote: "You decided to come to this board and post and your first post was hardly warm or sympathetic, but rather little more than an ad hominem attack. "

Wow! Ad hominem attack? By stating that what some of what I read here is not true, I don't see that as an ad hominem attack.

See [www.fallacyfiles.org]

Given your implied definition, saying that something is not true is an ad hominem attack. I do not believe that is so.

Peace,
Craig

Quakerboy:

You said in your first post:

Quote

Come on folks, you're just making yourselves look foolish... And what's up with the hateful responses...is that Christ-like? What would Jesus say about this behavior.

Then you said:

Quote

My suspection is that if I met any of you face to face without the ability to hide behind a computer screen, the dialogue would be different.

These are attacks that don't deal with Dave McKay's bad behavior, but rather attempt to discredit his critics personally.

The link you offered about ad hominem attacks states:

Quote

An Abusive Ad Hominem occurs when an attack on the character or other irrelevant personal qualities of the opposition

Calling McKay's critics "foolish," "hateful" and then claiming that they "hide behind a computer screen" seems to fit within an "attack on the character...personal qualities of the opposition."

moderator....It is very important for you to "win", right :lol: ? Let's just say this...anyone who has questions about the Jesus Christians should check them out themselves and not rely on my testimony or the testimony of others. You can locate them by doing a simple google search.

Quakerboy:

Attempting to attack me personally won't change the facts, as stated previously, this type of response to criticism about Dave McKay's behavior isn't meaningful.

People curious about McKay and his group should do a Google search to locate information, which will yield a wide range of sources.

Such a search will yield the group's page, which is run by McKay and his followers, but also a subsection within this database with media reports.

See [www.culteducation.com]

There is also the first-hand experiences of former members and families posting here on this board, which offers those seriously interested a meaningful balance to the claims made by McKay and his followers.

You may choose to dismiss such sources Quakerboy, but most people seriously interested in researching the group would not.

As anyone can see that reads this thread from the beginning McKay and his followers often refuse to answer and/or avoid answering many questions. They also have engaged repeatedly in ad hominem attacks, rather than respond directly to the points raised by critics.

Start here [board.culteducation.com]

Still waiting for the evidence you have that I, as someone who has posted on this thread, has engaged in "outright lies" and "half truths" quakerboy. You obviously have spent some time listening to the Jesus Christians, how about giving EQUAL airtime to former members.

To be frank you come across as rather angry, especially when your FIRST post here makes such bold accusations. Hardly the Quaker way. To quote you, [i:816fee0d1a]"I think you might want to back up and have dialogue with me with understanding, respect and compassion"[/i:816fee0d1a].

Note how I have actually quoted you here when I respond to you. This is giving due respect to your words. I have not summarised them in any way. I have used them simply to convey a message to you that you are not doing unto us and you would have done unto you. Hardly fair in my books.

So, when you are ready to provide the actual quote where I have said anything you deem an "outright lie" or "half truth" I will be more than happy to respond. Until then, quoting you again, [i:816fee0d1a]"might I suggest you let your words "season" before you sound off in a public forum to another Friend? "[/i:816fee0d1a]

Quakerboy
I can understand your feelings about the JC's and Dave Mckay. All of us ex-members thought like you did. In fact, we thought so highly of them that we sold all our possessions, forsaking all and joined them full-time. We have all, at one stage, thought even more highly of them than you do, because we joined them, working hard day and night with them for many years and many of us in leadership positions.

I can understand it is very hard for you to see what we are saying. Unfortunately you have not walked in our shoes. Dave is an expert at showing a super-idealistic face to the world. He trains all members to show this same face to the world and to hide disagreements and problems within the community.

There is a very strong system of internal discipline and coercion in the group which is completely invisible to the outside observer and difficult to see even for a temporary live in visitor.

Do you think that people who leave David's group are headed for hell? This is what they teach and believe at the very deepest level, for the consumption of full time disciples only. However they have a layer of deception to cover this fact and they will deny this to your face.

Many JC's pray and yearn and hunger for the day that they can join "Jesus end time army" as they interpret from the Book of Revelation. They sincerely want to smite the "evil doers" with a "rod of iron", yes, killing and mass slaughtering. Do you know of their attitudes to disciplining children? "Spare the rod and spoil the child". Are these attitudes compatible with Quakerism?

Why do you think there are more ex members than present members?