Quote
Quote
Josh
How can Jesus Christ not be a Christian? That makes me really curious about how you define Christianity.
Quote
apostate
Jesus was a Jew.
You can be a Jew (by religion, I'm not talking about race) and believe Jesus was Gods son, sent by God from his pre-existence in the Glory of the presence of God the Father to sacrafice himself to make atonement for the sins of all of humanity? I'd guess most Jews would disagree with you, but to each their own.
Quote
apostate
There is a quote which says: "How can we be loving on earth if we follow a tyrant in heaven"
That's what I'm curious about, how do you define tyrant? Is it anyone who has ultimate authority over you. I definitly belive God has that authority over all of us and it is right that he does have it. Though you've chosen not to answer if you think God does have the right to be soveriegn, I'm guessing that you don't?
Quote
apostateQuote
Josh
How about you? Do you think that God has the right to, and do you think he ever would set up one person in authority over another. (I'm not talking about Dave McKay here, I'm speaking hypothetically)
Lets stick to the simple example in front of us with the whipping of the African volunteer for some sin committed. Why get into hypotheticals when we have an actual event to discuss. Do you think God set that scenario up by putting an "authority", who happened to be a JC, over that person? Do you think the person using the whip on that African's back was welding the whip FOR God? It's a simple question.
I got into hypotheticals because I came here to try and understand why some had bad times in the Jesus Christians and some have a good time in the Jesus Christians, not to judge their actions. (Not saying that that's a bad thing to do, just saying that's not my goal here) I asked a hypothetical question I thought would help me understand where you were coming from, but if you want to talk about this first then fine we can do that. But I would like to understand your thought process about Gods sovereinty anyway so maybe we could talk about that next?
What I understand about the situation is as follows (correct me if I've got stuff wrong)
A couple guys stole things from the Jesus Christians in Africa. One got caught by the police and received 20(?) lashes for stealing. The other was found out first by the Jesus Christians and offered to receive 5 lashes as punishment for stealing, or if he chose a member of the Jesus Christians would take the lashes for him and this guy wouldn't get turned over to the police to get the 20(?) lashes the other guy did. The second theif chose to take the 5 lashes himself over having a Jesus Christian take the lashes for him.
Let me start by saying, I don't think I would have handled this situation the same way, but that's not what I'm being asked. I'm being asked to judge if this was handled in a morally reprehensible way. Here's some questions to help everyone work through this on their own.
[list:39447ed516]
1. Is corporal punishment ever ok?
2. If it is ok, is it only ok for the government to use?
3. Is it acceptable for someone to plea bargain to a lesser sentance?
4. Is it acceptable to settle to a lesser sentace with the people bringing the charges against you, rather than being taken to court?
5. Was this man put into a position where he had little choice but to accept the charges and the punishment against him?
[/list:u:39447ed516]
My answers...
1. I know some people don't think so, but I do think corporal punishment is not morally wrong.
2. I think corporal punishment can be used by non-governmental agencies (ie parents, catholic school nuns etc)
3. Yes, this happens all the time, and I can't think of a problem with it.
4. Yes I think it's ok, in fact I think it's better to settle differences out of court rather than in court.
5. I can't answer this question really. I was not there and the only knowledge I have of this is what I have heard from the Jesus Christians. If it's true that the memeber of the Jesus Christians could have received the lashes and that would have been the end of it as the story has been reported, then it doesn't sound like the guy was forced into the punishment.
So my judgement is, while I probably wouldn't have done things this way, I don't think settling out of court for a lesser punishment is as morally reprehensible as it has been protrayed. Oh I should probably also let you know, I don't think it's any worse to whip someone of african decent than any other race. I noticed everytime you mentioned someone being whipped you didn't fail to mention he was african. I didn't see that as being an important point, but it seems like you might. So bear in mind I didn't take race into acount here.