Xenophone, Like your predessessor the great [i:36216ca0ea]Attic Muse[/i:36216ca0ea], your use of primary sources here give great weight to your historic account.
Very interesting post. Thank you.

In response to Xenphone's post- with comments saying that Dave perceives that we hate him. Do we hate Dave? I know that I certainly don't- I just worry about his perception of reality- and the consequences it has for other members of his community. Perhaps Dave needs some reasurance- and someone to explain that disagreement isn't necessarily persecution. :lol:

Xenophone, thank you so much, you're speaking truth for all of us. I'm sitting here crying my eyes out and I want to shake Fran, Reino, Paul, Ulrike, Josef, all our present day misled Dave's disciple, come on, see what your hearts tells you to see, you CAN be free and it doesn't take much, email me privately, PLEASE ...

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apostate
Fran, I have met you. I know you are an intelligent man.

Yes, you have met me. But can you say that you really know me? We only distributed together a couple of times, and I never really lived with you.

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apostate
I do not believe that you are free and autonomously operating because I also know how Dave works, and because I believe the account of Xenophone that the JC's have not changed at all.

Yes, you seem to believe anything that supports your campaign to tear us (and Jesus) down.

And Josh, the reason apostate won't answer the question is because he is, it appears, too ashamed to admit that he set up a website publicly declaring that Jesus is a hypocrite, a racist and a false prophet. He considers his own philosophy and life to be more loving than that of Jesus.

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apostate
Being part of something invisible Josh, one does not look fo walls of division, only actions of unification

You only need to read back to every post written under the name of apostate on this forum (and on the JC forum) to know that "apostate" is not at all interested in "only actions of unification". Quite the opposite is true. He is a very divisive man. Beware!

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apostate
Fran, both you and Kimono would do yourself a great service if you left the group and really engaged in the larger community,

Thank you for that piece of advice. So far, I have not seen the fruit in your spirit to be attractive in any way that would make me want to follow in your footsteps.

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apostate
as when it comes down to it you are benefitting the world very little compared to what you could do on the outside of the JC's.

Maybe so. But that is something for God to inform me of.

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apostate
You could bring little Fran's into the world.

I could. However, I doubt the world needs more Frans in it. What the world needs is more "Jesuses". Your idea of propagating yourself in the world sounds very arrogant to me.

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apostate
Raising children is a very rewarding experience. Don't leave it too long

I am sure it is. Many experiences are very rewarding on this planet. I am focussing on striving to do God's will in my

life. I am sure that if having my own children, or raising someone else's is part of God's plan for me, then he will reveal it to me at the right time. God is never late.

Malcom, thanks for writing to me. I must say that I find you amusing at the very least. You keep setting yourself up as an authority on what I should and shouldn't do. You little manipulator!! :o)

As far as the policy with Quakers and other churches goes, I cannot speak for what happened in the 80s, because I wasn't there. I joined in 1997, which is TWELVE YEARS after you left!! Seriously, you don't think people can learn a few lessons in 12 years that might change their emphasis somewhat?? Have you changed in the last 20 years, or are you still the same? There is a saying that if you haven't changed a major opinion in the last year, you should check your pulse because you may already be dead!

All I can speak of is my own experience, which as I said, started in 97. Ever since I was in the community, the JCs taught that "churchies" are people who worship their church organizations more than God, and that this included people WITHIN the JCs. I was taught, and I agree with it, that there can be sincere people in any organization and that we need to appreciate the good points in each organization, while rejecting that which does not help us in our relationship with God. In the last nine years, we have been involved with a few churches. Dave and Cherry introduced me to Quakers about 7 years ago, and I have had an increasing interest in what the Quakers teach. My interest in Quakerism is personal. I know of JCs who do not have as much interest as I do in Quakerism. I have never been forced to go to Quaker meetings, have not been asked by any JC to be actively involved in Quakers, and have not been told to like Quakerism. But the fact is that I do like Quakerism and my liking of it increases as time goes by. Kim and I chose to have a Quaker wedding ceremony, becuase we identified with it more than with any other ceremony (including previous JC ceremonies).

Malcom, I suggest you go to our forum and view the "Thread of Good Sayings" that I started under the "Everything Else" category. You will (if you have any sincerity at all) see that many of us quote from many different sources without having to ask permission to do so. Gees! I can't even quote the Quakers without you thinking that I am being controlled by the JCs! :roll: You really are something, Malcom!

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Malcom
Frans tells that us that he is inspired by the Quaker doctrine of the “revelation” of God being somehow inside all, that he has been blessed by this cheerful outlook on all and sundry….

In his very next posting, Fran tells us that in his nine years of experience the only reason people left the Jesus Christians was for reasons of their own personal inadequacy (much like Davids’ earlier self-serving reply to Zeusor that only those who didn’t like the “disciplines of Christ” left the Jesus Christians)….

Malcom, either you don't understand Quaker doctrine or you are purposely trying to twist my words to create a contradiction that doesn't exist. Yes, there is "that of God" in everyone. But as I have said many times (and have heard many Quakers agree with me), there is that "which is not of God" in everyone too. Understanding that there is that of God in everyone, doesn't mean that everyone is following God. No, not everyone is. In fact, most people are rejecting God.

It may be that some people left because of their conscience. Only God knows. What I said was that I don't remember anyone in the last nine years who claimed they were leaving because of an issue of conscience. Maybe some even did claim it, and I just can't remember it. All it would take is for someone to identify themselves as someone who said they were leaving over a conscience issue, and it will be all cleared up. Many posters on this thread claim to be ex-members. So, here is my challenge... anyone who disagrees with me in what I have just said, can just identify themselves and remind us of how they told us they were leaving over an issue of conscience (and what that issue was).

So, Malcom, please consider your own spirit, for I do not sense the love of God coming through what you write.

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And at the moment I am working with the Jesus Christians to do just that. Why can't you accept that? Why does it always have to be this "anyone but the Jesus Christians" attitude. It doesn't impress me at all.

I accept that. I know you are trying to follow God.

Thank you for that song quote. It does seem somewhat familiar!

"The system" can be any group we are attached to. Any time we follow procedures and traditions and leaders just from habit and allow cruelty to abide so that the system is upheld we are systemites.

I wish you all the best.

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cultmalleus
I accept that. I know you are trying to follow God.

Thank you for that song quote. It does seem somewhat familiar!

"The system" can be any group we are attached to. Any time we follow procedures and traditions and leaders just from habit and allow cruelty to abide so that the system is upheld we are systemites.

I wish you all the best.

I fully agree with you about the systemite thing. The important thing is to have that personal connection with God and make sure that we don't disobey what God is telling us personally.

The song I quoted is called "Hold to Truth". It rocks.

Thank you for your post, cultmalleus. And thank you for the well wishes. I really appreciate it. May you be continually blessed as you strive to build God's kingdom!

cultmalleus said,

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"The system" can be any group we are attached to. Any time we follow procedures and traditions and leaders just from habit and allow cruelty to abide so that the system is upheld we are systemites.

Wouldn't that describe Dave's leadership and his "system" regarding the JC "group"?

And doesn't that make Fran a "systemite"?

Fran said,

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The important thing is to have that personal connection with God and make sure that we don't disobey what God is telling us personally.

Isn't that "personal connection" subject to confirmation? And isn't manipulation of this subjective experience part of Dave's system to dominate his followers, which often leads them to believe that "God is telling" them to do what he wants?

For example, Fran has yet to point out how Dave himself has failed to obey God. Nor has she offered specific examples of when the so-called "autonomous teams" have dissregarded Dave's opinions, advice and/or rejected his ideas to go their own way.

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Josh
How can Jesus Christ not be a Christian? That makes me really curious about how you define Christianity.

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apostate
Jesus was a Jew.

You can be a Jew (by religion, I'm not talking about race) and believe Jesus was Gods son, sent by God from his pre-existence in the Glory of the presence of God the Father to sacrafice himself to make atonement for the sins of all of humanity? I'd guess most Jews would disagree with you, but to each their own.

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apostate
There is a quote which says: "How can we be loving on earth if we follow a tyrant in heaven"

That's what I'm curious about, how do you define tyrant? Is it anyone who has ultimate authority over you. I definitly belive God has that authority over all of us and it is right that he does have it. Though you've chosen not to answer if you think God does have the right to be soveriegn, I'm guessing that you don't?

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apostate

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Josh
How about you? Do you think that God has the right to, and do you think he ever would set up one person in authority over another. (I'm not talking about Dave McKay here, I'm speaking hypothetically)

Lets stick to the simple example in front of us with the whipping of the African volunteer for some sin committed. Why get into hypotheticals when we have an actual event to discuss. Do you think God set that scenario up by putting an "authority", who happened to be a JC, over that person? Do you think the person using the whip on that African's back was welding the whip FOR God? It's a simple question.

I got into hypotheticals because I came here to try and understand why some had bad times in the Jesus Christians and some have a good time in the Jesus Christians, not to judge their actions. (Not saying that that's a bad thing to do, just saying that's not my goal here) I asked a hypothetical question I thought would help me understand where you were coming from, but if you want to talk about this first then fine we can do that. But I would like to understand your thought process about Gods sovereinty anyway so maybe we could talk about that next?

What I understand about the situation is as follows (correct me if I've got stuff wrong)
A couple guys stole things from the Jesus Christians in Africa. One got caught by the police and received 20(?) lashes for stealing. The other was found out first by the Jesus Christians and offered to receive 5 lashes as punishment for stealing, or if he chose a member of the Jesus Christians would take the lashes for him and this guy wouldn't get turned over to the police to get the 20(?) lashes the other guy did. The second theif chose to take the 5 lashes himself over having a Jesus Christian take the lashes for him.

Let me start by saying, I don't think I would have handled this situation the same way, but that's not what I'm being asked. I'm being asked to judge if this was handled in a morally reprehensible way. Here's some questions to help everyone work through this on their own.

[list:39447ed516]
1. Is corporal punishment ever ok?

2. If it is ok, is it only ok for the government to use?

3. Is it acceptable for someone to plea bargain to a lesser sentance?

4. Is it acceptable to settle to a lesser sentace with the people bringing the charges against you, rather than being taken to court?

5. Was this man put into a position where he had little choice but to accept the charges and the punishment against him?
[/list:u:39447ed516]

My answers...
1. I know some people don't think so, but I do think corporal punishment is not morally wrong.

2. I think corporal punishment can be used by non-governmental agencies (ie parents, catholic school nuns etc)

3. Yes, this happens all the time, and I can't think of a problem with it.

4. Yes I think it's ok, in fact I think it's better to settle differences out of court rather than in court.

5. I can't answer this question really. I was not there and the only knowledge I have of this is what I have heard from the Jesus Christians. If it's true that the memeber of the Jesus Christians could have received the lashes and that would have been the end of it as the story has been reported, then it doesn't sound like the guy was forced into the punishment.

So my judgement is, while I probably wouldn't have done things this way, I don't think settling out of court for a lesser punishment is as morally reprehensible as it has been protrayed. Oh I should probably also let you know, I don't think it's any worse to whip someone of african decent than any other race. I noticed everytime you mentioned someone being whipped you didn't fail to mention he was african. I didn't see that as being an important point, but it seems like you might. So bear in mind I didn't take race into acount here.

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Malcom
Even your initial question Josh, hints that you are being “fed” assumptions from the word “go”….

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Josh
“Why do you guys think that you had such a hard time while in the Jesus Christians but others that are still in the group seem to be doing well and are quite happy? In your opinion what's the difference between you and them?”

Sorry about the misunderstanding. I didn't make myself clear enough. I didn't mean to say you guys weren't happy now. I meant to say that you weren't happy being a part of the Jesus Christians, while other people who are still members are happy being a part of the Jesus Christians.

I guess I kind of assumed you weren't happy being a part of their group because you ended up leaving, maybe I was wrong in assuming that. Sorry for that.

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Malcom
No doubt, the Jesus Christians will have waxed lyrical about the devotion Boyd and Sheri have displayed

I've never heard of them before, but I haven't gone to the musical sections of the Jesus Christian website to see if they've "waxed lyrical" about them. To be fair though, I hadn't heard any of your names until I read them discussing the people who posted on this forum and their own forum. Before that all I'd heard was something like... "Some ex-members seemed to continue on living by faith, but most simply backslid" (That's not a real quote, just the amalgamation of the things I'd heard before the rick ross/jesus christian flame thread fights started going on and I heard peoples actual names.)

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Malcom
(P.S. I will reply to your earlier questions directed to me, in the near future Josh! Have to go right now!)

Good. I'll look forward to it. I was hoping you were still going to reply again since most of my questions came up based on your first reply.