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God Is Obvious - Religion Is Suspect (Part 2/2). The Atheist Experience #566 with Matt Dillahunty and Tracie Harris: "Science is not Authoritarian. Tracie addresses the idea that scientists are atheists' prophets".

(Part 2/2)

What is The Atheist Experience?

The Atheist Experience is a weekly cable access television show in Austin, Texas geared at an atheist and non-atheist audience. The Atheist Experience is produced by the Atheist Community of Austin (ACA), a nonprofit educational corporation to develop and support the atheist community, to provide opportunities for socializing and friendship, to promote secular viewpoints, to encourage positive atheist culture, to defend the first amendment principle of state-church separation, to oppose discrimination against atheists and to work with other organizations in pursuit of common goals.

• [www.Atheist-Experience.com]
• [www.Atheist-Community.org]
• [www.NonProphetsRadio.com]



One person suggested that the moderators' atheist perspective would be modified if they took up meditation.

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Comments:
Author Hanahleia (9 days)
Buddhism espouses panENtheism, and even claims you could have a direct experience of the panentheism through meditation by silencing of the mind, a quietism, the dissolving of the subject-object duality to experience reality directly. Perhaps Matt and Tracie should take up meditation? If they could but maintain this state of anoesis, then they'd experience the colossal transformation of consciousness, the ontological shock that leads to theosophical insight.

Serge Benhayon's name came up.

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Author shimwah (6 months)
@nebula25x You make a valid point, however I know of a certain person that has an understanding that would far surpass anything these guys have witnessed or heard on a wide spectrum of topics.

(A few comments deleted for brevity-Corboy)

Author christallh24 (7 months)
@shimwah Ah, I agree with you that that's a cop out.

Author shimwah (7 months)

@christallh24 I was referring to The person I know,. Serge Benhayon from universal medicine.

He said it would be pointless to debate the existence of God, reincarnation, soul, spirit, etc... The teachings Serge presents is based on the premise that everything is energy, therefore everything is because of energy. I thought it was a cop out when i asked him why don't you invite people like Hitchens, Dawkins, Matt to your workshops for discussion. His reply was 'It would be pointless'.

Author christallh24 (7 months)
@shimwah Who cop out? Matt or this person you know?

Matt frequently says he'll talk to anyone that calls the show. That's all he can do.

For the theists that think they can represent their religion better than another believer, like Matt said here, bring your A game and call the showe /[qu/ote]

shimwah seems to post in a lot of places defending universal medicine. he seems to have gone quiet on here. a shame as i would welcome further debate with him on many issues.

Hi All

Thank you to those who have pointed out the many major flaws in universal medicine. I will keep my story as short as possible but im hoping it may serve someone else well if you ever enter a relationship with someone who is involved with UM. I began dating a girl 2 years ago and was dripped fed bits and pieces along the way. I like to keep open minded and not be judgemental but once we moved in together it became apparent that she was HEAVILY!!! influenced by the teachings of serge and UM. Things of note included are listed below and i have experienced all first hand. Please note that for Serge's followers this is a way of life and your life will literally revolve around it. It is extreme!

* No Alcohol ( classified as bad energy and anyone who drinks is frowned upon) I literally mean no alcohol in the house at all! Literally no connection with it at all.

* Certain foods have bad energy. Wheat, dairy, sugar certain vegetables and fruits, some meats. And this list is always expanding which can make meal preparation a little tricky

* Lamanated cards with symbols ( $15 each) which you sit on or over to help clear bad energy. There appears to be a card from every problem

* Excercise is out - only gentle excercise approved by serge allowed. Yoga is ok but only yoga taught by UM.

* Sporting or any other competition is heavily frowned upon

* Everything must be done in a gentle way. You may experience people from UM almost very distant and frail with their movemements. The like to "live" within themselves

* Can only be massaged in a counter clockwise motion and generally only allow UM practioners too touch them with specially approved cream designed by Serge himself. All other massages are considered bad

* Very defensive and sometimes aggressive when asked to explain their beliefs

* Serge has extreme control over his followers. As soon as something is declared bad energy the reaction is almost immediate

* Serge is the only one who has connections with the Hierachy and he passes down their messages

* Tatoos are bad and his followers are told that you take on the bad energy of the tatoo artist.

* Serge claims to be able to read peoples dreams and their past lives

* A total dismissal of all other religions and alternative health practices unless approved by serge. They are very black and white to the point of arrogance

* No rational or logical discussion can be had as you will be told you are not in a "feeling energy" but a "thinking energy". Its their way of dismissing conflict or questioning.

* Your partner may participate in Breast Massage which serge has convinced them is a way of cleansing. Some men may even be restricted from touching their partners breasts.

* Sleep time is encouraged between the hours of 9pm and 3am

* They are told what artwork and music to have in their lives. DiVinci is a favourite of his along with music from Chris James. Their homes will be full of his artwork. Including photos on their phones and computers. Serge claims to be divinci in a past life.

* Special dances to be performed to help balance your energy.

* They generally only read books written by serge. The books are very hard to understand and are written in an "energetic" way. The grammar is very poor.

* At least twice a year expect your partner or friend to attend one of his 6 day "health" retreats in Vietnam or Byron Bay. At a cost of course.

* UM believes heavily in reincarnation and that we choose our next life. Serge will be able to tell you about your past life

Dear Frodo, thank you for this.

One gets the impression from reading your description that dating or living with a UM devotee means living with not one, but three persons - the UM devotee and Serge.

Rather like a nightmarish mother in law situation.

If it isnt too painful to remember, can you recall how much you had to pay financially, to separate from the UM member (eg if you had to pay to move your belongings out, find another place to live, extra visits to a doctor for health problems, any visits you might have made and paid for if you dutifully attended UM events or went to UM practitioners to please your partner?

Years ago when this board was occuppied in discussing another cult, one reader wrote in and told us he or she moved in to share an apartment and discovered the person who owned the lease was a devotee of Landmark and proceeded to pressurise our friend.

Our friend reported having great difficulty finding an affordable place to rent, and was therefore rather stuck with this unpleasant situation until able to move out.

Another note: This clockwise massage is quite unusual. Massages and methods used in Chi Gong and Traditional Chinese Medicine and many other systems are clockwise.

Isolating devotees from all other health care practitioners is not only fear mongering -- it cuts them off from getting advice from non UM providers - and it robs them of a chance of being told whether the UM practices could be harming them - dietary deficiencies?

Mineral and vitamin deficiencies can leave some persons at great risk of increased dental caries. If UM counsels avoiding dentists, one can risk having serious dental problems arise and go untreated.

A friend of mine had stopped using flouridated toothpaste. Luckily she still went to her dentist. She was found to have a new cavity, where before she had never had cavities.

And that new cavity would have gone into the pulp and required root canal had two more months passed.

This is serious stuff.

Thanks for the questions corby. Happy to answer them as i want people to understand how full on it is. I was lucky in that i chose to never participate in any of the UM courses which was not taken very well by my partner. The house i rented was under my name so basically there was no inconvience or financial strained caused except for being bummed to have broken up with such a lovely girl who had been brainwashed by Serge. You have described it well. It is like having a 3rd person in the relationship.

I think serge likes to have his points of difference from other alternative practices. Hence if everyone else says clockwise massage technique - serge will recommend the opposite. While UM members will attend normal doctors they generally seak out medical practionioners who have studied under UM. It is always their first preference and most illnesses are put down to their bodies cleansing themselves. It can be hard sometimes to convince a UM member to see a doctor or dentist. Physios are totally out of the question. They believe that most professional health practioners do not practice gently or with enough love. This may be true but you are going to find good and bad in all walks of life. Serge is a clever businessman as he also designs vitamins and suppliments for his members. Of course he has made them in a "loving" way. So be prepared for your pantry to become over run with UM products and creams. I have no idea where or how they are made but its total crap.

Yes Fluoride is another thing that has bad energy. Going to a restuarant is hard work because of all the food restrictions. I love to live a healthy life but a little sugar and gluten aint going to kill me or cause me to have bad energy!

People must understand that if you decide to date someone or your current partner gets involved it is VERY hard if not impossible to get them to see reason in this hypocrtical and dangerous practice. I get that there are no compounds (yet) or sexual abuse so you could say this is a low risk cult but where is it going to stop. Over my 2 years nearly every 3 months serge would tell his followers some new crap and without question it would be eliminated from their life. His Dream interpretations are a classic and scary at the same time. This guy actually thinks he can interpret your dreams and tap into your past life.

You will also be strongly encouraged to particpate and become a member and if you choose to have children they will be too. I stressed this in my last posting and i want to say it again. Members of UM choose this as a lifestyle and it is all encompassing. It will affect your day to day life and thing that i hated the most about it was their negative attitude to all other belief systems. Who is this Serge guy to say he is right and everyone else is wrong!

Frodo's experiences above are an accurate description of what it is like living with someone who is obsessively involved with Universal Medicine, and very similar to my own. I might add that listening to music (apart from the mostly dreadful UM produced recordings) is generally out, too. It may not be the same for everyone, but if your partner takes Serge's teachings as gospel truth it's what one can expect to live with. Serge claims our souls rotate in an anti-clockwise motion, hence the massage. Any clockwise massage supposedly traps 'prana' in the body. Regarding medical practitioners, Serge does support mainstream medicine ( I think he's clever enough to realize that doing otherwise would be a massive red flag), however he teaches that most practitioners have not healed themselves first, so any contact they have with patients will pass on 'pranic' energy. Ideally, all medical practitioners would follow his lifestyle teachings, then they'd be better equipped to 'truly' heal patients. There are physiotherapists, dentists and psychological counsellors following his teachings, so for those students who can access them, they obviously become the preferred practitioners in their fields, but where necessary going to a standard doctor is not out of the question when illness arises. As far as massage or Yoga goes though, only UM practitioners are recommended.

One more thing: apparently the various UM massage creams, herbal supplements etc are designed according to Pythagorean principles, which Serge is able to do as he claims to have been Pythagoras in a previous incarnation.

Thanks MacReady for some of your explanations of their practices. Whilst i have tried to sit through his recorded interviews and read his books i just can't get past the first 5 minutes as it is pain staking and ridiculous. I have relied on my partner for explanations which she struggles with and then usually gets angry because I'm asking. So over 2 years i have managed to gather a basic understanding of how he works but not in depth like you have. Well done to you for being able to do it - your more patient then me!!!

As MacReady says the music is mind numbing at first and then down right annoying. It is truly awful and repetitive.

One other thing i forgot to mention was that on top of the health retreats, your partner will do at least a monthly trip to visit serge if they live within 3 hours of his clinic. Another cost of course. What is written by Macready in other posts is true in that Serge is always moving the goal posts and i saw this plenty of time in the 2 years i was with my partner. You especially notice this in the food restrictions but over time you pick up on more subtle changes in their behaviours which they are obsessive over. The members become very dependant on Serge and his word is gospel and not ever questioned.

When it comes to Serge's dream interpretations if they were made public he would be sued for defamation. His labelling and baseless assumptions of people and their past is outrageous. I don't want too reveal too much so i can protect my privacy but at the very least he is negligent as a practitioner.

So my advice to guys is - if you meet a girl and she invites you back to her place.... and in the lounge room or bedroom there is a GIANT painting of the Mona Lisa - RUNNNNN!

Hi, my name is Rod Harvey from the Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia and I’ve been a Universal Medicine student for just over five years.

Recently I came across this forum and I noticed that many comments are quite scathing about Universal Medicine, so for the sake of balance I decided to present a student’s viewpoint. I should point out that this is my decision and I didn’t require anyone’s permission to do so.

I must mention that I certainly don’t have an issue with scepticism as I was initially sceptical myself about some of the concepts presented by Unimed (Universal Medicine).

For the ‘record’ I work as a freelance copywriter and photographer. I’m married and have two adult children, four step children, eight chooks and am a step grandfather to Ralph, a fluffy white dog. I’m down to earth and have a good sense of humour…well at least I think so.

About four and a half decades ago I left school and I didn’t consider becoming a student again. Yet after five years I’m really enjoying my esoteric education…and see it as ongoing. The ‘esoteric’ is not something mystical, it’s simply living from within.

In January 2007 my wife attended a couple of Unimed presentations and I’d ask her lots of questions when she returned. One of the things that appealed to me at the time was when she explained that much of what was presented was about self responsibility.

So I decided to attend a Unimed presentation… somewhat hesitantly, after all what was I going to see? Dreadlocks, hippies, weirdo’s? Yet the people I saw were quite ‘ordinary’ (actually, I later realised they were quite ‘extraordinary’… along with everyone else in this world).

Serge, the presenter, was unassuming and spoke fluently. Much of what he said was both revealing and challenging. He presented knowledge I had never heard before (yet was somehow familiar). Even though a lot made sense there were still concepts that didn’t gel. So I sat on the fence for a couple of years until I gradually realised that my preconceptions and scepticism had been shutting me down from being open to truth.

One of those was the concept of reincarnation. Initially I was uncertain…after all where’s the proof? But I realised there was also no proof of heaven or hell, angels, life after death and many of the other beliefs around what happens to us after we die.

Reincarnation began to make sense to me, particularly when I considered karma (what goes round comes around). In other words if I do the wrong thing, somewhere there’s payback and I’ll cop it either in this life or next time around. Conversely by living with integrity I have the opportunity in this life to clear karma and move forward next time around.

Another concept I struggled through was the ‘God thing’. As a fence-sitting agnostic, my concept of God was pre-determined through my observations of various religions. After all how could there be an all loving God if the world was so screwed up, or how could a God allow women to be second class citizens within religious bodies, or wars fought over religious ideals, or inquisitions and so on…it didn’t make sense.

But through Unimed I gradually came to realise that within the great religions there are fundamental truths which had been altered by men to suit their needs. I embraced the concept that God is Love…an energy or Light that is equal within each of us (and it doesn’t need a building or a set of readings, scriptures or rituals to access). And it’s my choice to access that light or to keep it as a dull flicker inside. In other words, God is not there to save me – that’s up to me, and it’s not for me to use God as an excuse.
So that’s my take on it and the first time I have expressed it publicly. However I certainly don’t expect anyone to subscribe to how I feel about life, or Universal Medicine.

Over these five years Serge has never faltered; he has been totally consistent in the way he engages and relates lovingly to each and every person. Even if I had not accepted the teachings, I could never have questioned his integrity or any need for self gain or recognition…and he has a great sense of humour (probably even better than mine). Not once has Serge instructed or asked of anyone, he simple presents energetic truths and the choices are ours to make or not.

There have been many changes to my life. No more pubs, clubs, alcohol, junk food, biscuits, cake, chocolate and coffee. I now enjoy a gluten and dairy free diet. I have been asked how I did that. “Gradually” was my answer. Some were surprised to hear that meat, chicken and fish is still on the menu.

Initially I saw some of those changes as sacrifices or things that I was missing out on, until the penny dropped when I realised I wasn’t giving anything up - it was all about what I was gaining. I gained understanding from Unimed presentations about the energetic affects of various foods on my body. The information was presented and it was purely my choice to eat or drink whatever I wanted; so I opted for a healthier lifestyle.

I realised that I was eating for taste and comfort rather than nutrition and that some foods were ‘glugging’ me up and some were over stimulating.

As a result of the choices I made, there is now not as much of me as before. I feel more vibrant without needing grog, chocolate or coffee to give me a temporary high. I even discovered how to add extra hours to my week by eliminating hangovers. It took some time, but I’m damn pleased I stuck to it. However…each to their own and I tend to keep my new lifestyle habits to myself and only bring it up if someone who I haven’t seen for some time asks me why I look better or younger (which is pretty neat).

I’ve also learned what compassion and true responsibility really is and how to live in a way that does not harm anyone. I find that I don’t take on other’s emotional issues as before and that life flows when I’m in flow. It’s awesome!

From recognising that life is about serving others and not about me, I am also discovering what love truly is.

The students are from a cross-section of society. There are doctors, surgeons and specialists (including lung, vascular, organ transplant, eye, rheumatology), solicitors, barristers, academics, teachers, naturopaths, esoteric healers, white collar and blue collar workers…a host of occupations including university and school students. Overall the people I have met are level headed, intelligent and certainly not ‘followers’. There is no adoration of Serge…and if there was it would be quickly discouraged.

I’ve met a great bunch of people from all walks of life and I appreciate that there is not a need for students to live in each other’s pockets; yet it is a pleasure to catch up. And when we get together occasionally for a celebration and dance, as a fellow student said, “It’s fantastic to be surrounded by a bunch of happy sober fun loving people”.

The students are a group of people who are learning lessons about life and energetic integrity – yet still have their ‘stuff’ and issues like anyone else does.

I’ve seen many changes for the better within students. Many of the women have become more grace-full and feminine as a result of self-love and nurturing. Likewise, many of the male students are gentler yet still retain their male essence.

However as we know, when someone changes their life, it can be difficult for partners, relatives or friends to adapt to. Similarly, it can be difficult for the person who is making the choices to change their life when there is resistance from others.

And I should point out that Unimed does not encourage students to disassociate from other people – in fact, it’s quite the opposite. The fact is that many students decide, through free-will, to make changes to their life styles and that can affect personal relationships.

In my case there was some resistance from a couple of relatives but after a while they got over it and we all got on with it. We also noticed that party invitations dropped off when some realised we had stopped drinking (grog). That’s life.

Serge consistently encourages freedom of choice to make our own decisions…and the contention that Universal Medicine is a cult is completely false.

I respect we have our differences and naturally there will be disagreement about some (or perhaps all) of the concepts I have presented. That’s OK.

But I do appreciate the opportunity to provide some perspective to this forum.

With love, Rod

Some articles on Confirmation Bias

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Confirmation bias is a phenomenon wherein decision makers have been shown to actively seek out and assign more weight to evidence that confirms their hypothesis, and ignore or underweigh evidence that could disconfirm their hypothesis.

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Confirmation bias is a cognitive bias whereby one tends to notice and look for information that confirms one's existing beliefs, whilst ignoring anything that contradicts those beliefs.

It is a type of selective thinking.

‘Confirmation bias is the technical name for people's desire to find information that agrees with their existing view.’
Montier (2002)