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Re: Universal medicine
Posted by: shimwah ()
Date: February 25, 2012 10:34AM

shimwah says:
February 14, 2011 at 9:18 pm
Alice Bailey continues her work as Serge Benhayon of Universal Medicine. It amazes me the ignorance surrounding this work and the scare mongering that results.

Hey, that's me alright. Thanks for the highlight corboy! I stand by the comment.

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Re: Universal medicine
Posted by: HerbertKane178 ()
Date: March 10, 2012 01:31AM

Are you saying he believes he is reincarnated from her? I was told by someone else he thought he was Leonardo da Vinci and was in contact with the reincarnation of a Elvis, a 13 year old girl!

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Re: Universal medicine
Posted by: MacReady ()
Date: March 17, 2012 01:31AM

Serge claims to be the reincarnation of Alice A. Bailey, Leonardo Da Vinci, and Pythagoras. In a recent interview he claimed to be one of the 'hierarchy of ascended masters' not merely in 'clairsentient' or psychic communication with them, which is how he previously claimed he sources the information he presents. He claims human beings originated from Mars and Venus (where we existed in non-physical bodies as 'beings of light' from memory). He claims that we were never meant to physically manifest on Earth and will one day return to our intended state of 'beings of light' but only when we take responsibility for the way we live and follow his teachings, otherwise we're condemned to keep repeating physical existence via reincarnations on Earth until we get it right. He claims that the folly of all human history is due to the influence of four disincarnate spirits called the Lords of Form, and that all religions, spiritual teachings and alternative healing modalities (Yoga, meditation etc) apart from his are the work of the Lords of Form. He claims the Lords of Form have legions of 'entities' - astral spirits and cosmic beings which they use to influence mankind in various negative ways, the general result of which is crime and other harmful, abhorrent behavior. Along with Elvis Presley's reincarnation he also claims to know where Hitler's is, and has also claimed that Shakespeare's reincarnation has been in attendance at his workshops. He recently claimed to know all the mysteries of the universe, but not in scientific terms, he can only relay how such information relates to human existence.

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Re: Universal medicine
Posted by: trackandfield ()
Date: March 17, 2012 03:46PM

Hey MacReady thanks for such a clear and concise summary of Serge's claims, seeing them presented directly like that really highlights their absurdity. Also shows that in terms of basic structure UM is very similar to Scientology and other cults that use metaphysical entities to coerce people..

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Re: Universal medicine
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: March 17, 2012 10:04PM

Quote

Along with Elvis Presley's reincarnation he also claims to know where Hitler's is, and has also claimed that Shakespeare's reincarnation has been in attendance at his workshops.

If he actually makes these claims..

Making such extravagent claims might be a way to assemble and perhaps create a docile audience.

This is just guess work on my part. We have to wait until former UM participants feel able to visit here and describe for themselves.

Here is why these seemingly wild claims about reincarnations may be useful in creating a docile audience.

Skeptics are annoyed enough to hit the 'close' button on the UM websites or annoyed enough to leave the room. Right there, this sifts out potential dissidents.

Those who remain are too polite to leave, or who are not troubled by extravagent claims. Result: a malleable audience.

These extravagent claims, if Serge is actually making them, may have still another effect.

The wild claims (Elvis, Shakespeare, Hitler, Lords of Form) dont put any burden on those who think they're nonsense.

Because..the mainstream world will agree this is nonsense.

If you're a skeptic, go to a talk or read a book or hear a video where this stuff is peddled and you think its hilarious, you can find plenty of people who will laugh right along with you.

But..lets look at people who find these claims (whether offered by Serge or by anyone else) exciting and intriguing.

First, a lot of these ventures do have an effect of making people feel better--at first. New group of people. Some shared group meditations, deep breathing, a nice group converstation afterwards with some tea and biscuits -- a lot of us are lonely and tense and will respond very well to a well organized reception of this kind.

Bang.

Persons who feel a bit better and are also intrigued or thrilled by wild claims of reincarnations may find themselves feeling part of a special mission..special and perhaps burdened at the same time.

THey're feeling better, yet fear they will be ridiculed if they talk openly about how interesting this stuff was, and that it made them feel better. So they keep it a secret from their outsider friends and co workers. This makes em feel special, custodians of something so significant that the outside world just will not understand. They will be more dependent on their new buddies in UM

Keeping secrets isolates us.

Suppose people dare confide their interest and excitement to friends and family.

A by product might be discord. A person might come home from an introductory talk, all fired up and meet with concern or (worse) scorn from skeptical friends or mates. All too often, this may cause the new recruit to end friendships with the skeptics and become yet more dependent on the intense and exciting world they've just found.

If ridiculed, they may feel resentful, break away from their real family and friends and decide only UM is trustworthy and that it has some special truth that generates demonic persecution from the outside.


And remember, most of these ventures start out making people feel better. If someone's been a bit lonesome or depressed and feels some relief, he or she will be reluctant to question it. Theyre more likely to get resentful if skeptical friends laugh at em.



These are the kinds of claims are 'attention grabbers'.

But, one of the rules of genuine search for verifiable evidence based truth is extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Two, in evidence based inquiry (science!--science is what created the computer you are using this very moment to read all this) in evidence based scientific inquiry, one starts out not by claiming something is true, but....by stating a hypothesis that can be proven wrong.

One cannot prove or disprove that Serge or anyone else is Elvis' reincarnation.

Ditto for Shakespeare's reincarnation. And ditto for claiming to know where Hitler's reincarnation is.

One cannot dis-prove such allegations.

One cannot disprove the existence of "Lords of Form".


So what you get are a dust ball of claims that cannot be disproved and thus the kinds of ideas that never go away. Thats why they keep showing up in new forms. the kind of stuff that collects like dust in corners. Evidence based inquiry sifts away stuff that cannot disproved and concentrates on problems that can be as hypotheses that can be proven wrong.

The claims reportedly made by Serge are standard re-writes of Theosophical and other systems that make unproveable claims. That is why versions of these systems keep showing up in new packages.

Theosophy in its present form was launched by Mme Blavatsky and Olcott in the 1870s and generated lots of spin offs, Alice Bailey being one of them. (Rudolf Steiner was another)

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Re: Universal medicine
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: March 17, 2012 11:07PM

The Usefulness of Making Wild Claims--Another Member's Analysis

"Many salespeople and sects do this, as it gets rid of critical thinkers up front"

In a discussion of a different group (which also makes odd claims about Hitler) a member of our message board, The Anticult, wrote this.

[forum.culteducation.com]

Quote

Its interesting that Desteni is using what many other sects and salespeople use, sometimes called an "idiot test". That is, right in their first materials, they put in some crazy material, to screen out critical thinkers, and screen-in those who will believe basically anything.

Like fake channeling Gaddafi or Hitler.
This means Desteni is filtering potential members up-front, as if a person believes that nonsense, they'll believe almost anything.

Many salespeople and sects do this, as it gets rid of critical thinkers up front, and gives the sect people who will apparently believe almost anything.

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Re: Universal medicine
Posted by: HerbertKane178 ()
Date: March 18, 2012 10:17AM

Quote
MacReady
Serge claims to be the reincarnation of Alice A. Bailey, Leonardo Da Vinci, and Pythagoras. In a recent interview he claimed to be one of the 'hierarchy of ascended masters' not merely in 'clairsentient' or psychic communication with them, which is how he previously claimed he sources the information he presents. He claims human beings originated from Mars and Venus (where we existed in non-physical bodies as 'beings of light' from memory). He claims that we were never meant to physically manifest on Earth and will one day return to our intended state of 'beings of light' but only when we take responsibility for the way we live and follow his teachings, otherwise we're condemned to keep repeating physical existence via reincarnations on Earth until we get it right. He claims that the folly of all human history is due to the influence of four disincarnate spirits called the Lords of Form, and that all religions, spiritual teachings and alternative healing modalities (Yoga, meditation etc) apart from his are the work of the Lords of Form. He claims the Lords of Form have legions of 'entities' - astral spirits and cosmic beings which they use to influence mankind in various negative ways, the general result of which is crime and other harmful, abhorrent behavior. Along with Elvis Presley's reincarnation he also claims to know where Hitler's is, and has also claimed that Shakespeare's reincarnation has been in attendance at his workshops. He recently claimed to know all the mysteries of the universe, but not in scientific terms, he can only relay how such information relates to human existence.

Hi MacReady, thanks for this post, really useful. Do you have a link to the interview? Would love to read the whole thing

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Re: Universal medicine
Posted by: MacReady ()
Date: March 18, 2012 02:43PM

Corboy - I tend to feel much of what you wrote above is probably quite accurate. I should note that while I do not subscribe to UM's theories, I do write from experience here. My exposure to UM came via acquaintances who are deeply involved for several years and who take what Serge presents as absolute truth. I have read several of Serge's books, listened to countless hours of interviews and audio presentations and having attended several workshops to check it out for myself, I have actually met him. As you say, one can no more disprove Serge's claims than he can prove them, and I'd speculate that the majority of people who are deeply involved are often disillusioned, vulnerable and seeking spiritual meaning in life. They firstly find the tangible elements of UM ('esoteric' yoga, meditation, massage etc) quite pleasant and relaxing. Then they meet Serge and find him to be a disarmingly charismatic, charming and down to earth person. The fact that he presents this material in a seemingly matter of fact (despite the convoluted terminology) and often light-hearted manner helps to lower resistance to the more bizarre claims he makes.

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Re: Universal medicine
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: March 18, 2012 10:00PM

Macready, someone like you will be a huge help to others who have been in UM.

Macready and Herb: There is a book worth your time, and written by an Australian who studied charismatic leaders of groups.

Oakes also and sympathetically interviewed followers. He found they were not passive. They were searching to better their lives. Doubt and misgivings plagued them. Many times they did leave when they had found what they were looking for -- or failed to find it.

Oakes found that the charismatic leaders need their followers.

In another discussion, someone on this message board wrote, "They raise their own spirits by raising the spirits of their followers"

One could say "They give themselves hope by giving a feeling of hope to their followers."

Prophetic Charisma by Len Oakes. It is on Googlebooks.

[books.google.com]

Oakes was himself in a commune (Centrepoint in NZ), led by a charismatic leader, Herbert Thomas Potter. He met and married someone in the group. He acknowledged that he benefitted from his time there.

But he had some misgivings early on and chose, with his wife, to leave. Some time later the leader of the group self destructed. He wrote a book about that.

[www.amazon.com]

Oakes became an academic and clinician in clinical psychology and studied twenty charismatic leaders. (Others, such as Barry Long, refused to be interviewed and Long, who had never met Oakes accused Oakes of living a meaningless life)

Oakes also interviewed persons who were in the groups who described the feelings, the energy, what they and the group could accomplish with the uplift of charismatic leadership.

They were also heartbreakingly eloquent about the dangers.

Oakes is especially valuable in that he traces how charismatic leaders develop and learn charisma. He identified a fairly typical trajectory. All were 'avid students of social manipulation.'

And all twenty of the leaders he interviewed could not enjoy adult peer relationships and often did not have the peace or serenity they projected outwards as part of their awesome public personae.

All were risk takers, and learned how to stay on top of all that went on in their groups. They could talk their way out of awkward situations and learned how to identify even the slightest bit of hesitation in an adversary or potential recruit and then, throw that person off balance.

'A common manipulative strategy used by leaders in this study was an argumentative style that was calculated to subtly shift the ground of any discussion from whatever matter was being talked about toward some area of an opponents personal insecurity. In this technique, the leader observed the process of an opponent's conversation and identified some point of hesitency and uncertainy. This was not always a flaw of logic or error of fact; the conversation may have been on some topic about which the leader would have known little and been unable to detect such a mistake. Rather, it was more likely to be some personal unsureness on the part of the opponent, that the leader's exquisite social perception targeted.

'...Typically what was said (by the leader) was an observation that the opponent seemed to be "a bit steamed up about this" or was "finding it hard to say what this is all about." In this was, the opponent was invited, sympathetically and seductively, to expand upon the very point of weakness.

'Or the leader claimed not to understand what was meant at a particular point, perhaps even saying that the opponent was not making sense.

'This usually lead to a further exposure, and then another, until the opponent stumbled over his words and began to look uncomfortable. At thsi point a well time dismissive glance from the leader was all that was needed to intimidate, the other person being glad to have the subject changed to how he might redeem his soul or however...'

(Oakes, pp 89-90)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2016 10:26PM by corboy.

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Re: Universal medicine
Posted by: HerbertKane178 ()
Date: March 19, 2012 01:46AM

Quote
MacReady
Corboy - I tend to feel much of what you wrote above is probably quite accurate. I should note that while I do not subscribe to UM's theories, I do write from experience here. My exposure to UM came via acquaintances who are deeply involved for several years and who take what Serge presents as absolute truth. I have read several of Serge's books, listened to countless hours of interviews and audio presentations and having attended several workshops to check it out for myself, I have actually met him. As you say, one can no more disprove Serge's claims than he can prove them, and I'd speculate that the majority of people who are deeply involved are often disillusioned, vulnerable and seeking spiritual meaning in life. They firstly find the tangible elements of UM ('esoteric' yoga, meditation, massage etc) quite pleasant and relaxing. Then they meet Serge and find him to be a disarmingly charismatic, charming and down to earth person. The fact that he presents this material in a seemingly matter of fact (despite the convoluted terminology) and often light-hearted manner helps to lower resistance to the more bizarre claims he makes.

How do your aquaintances react to challenges to their views? Or do you not challenge them on it?

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