Truth_Seeker_78:

Thanks.

See [www.culteducation.com]

This subsection has information about recovery from cults.

Also see [www.culteducation.com]

This is the Books page. Two books that might be helpful are "Bounded Choice" and "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse".

One comes from a secular perspective and the other from a biblical perspective.

See [www.amazon.com]

Also see [www.amazon.com]

I hope this is helpful.

Hello again to the forum.

I have recently added another video to my YouTube channel where Mike Vinson is now stating that those without the cult-group literally "hate" the group, and also, he states that there are those who want to literally physically crucify members of the group.

Here is a transcript of the audio from a recent Atlanta December 2012 conference:

Female voice: "We're not getting beaten or nailed to the cross, but, we're having different kinds of tribulation..."
Mike Vinson: "Well yeah you know, we're not getting beaten and nailed to the cross literally..."
Female voice: "Not yet"
Mike Vinson: "But we are figuratively beaten. Every time we open our mouths, they're, they're coming down on us y'know. Babylon believes nothing we say and they do hate us..."
Female voice: "Our own household and our own house..."
Mike Vinson: "People who think that they're not hated, the only reason you're not hated is because you haven't been put in a position to have to stand on what you believe! Cause when you are, when you're in that position, they're going to hate you. The world hates Christ. If you're Christ, you're hated..."

Just a side-note at this point, the world "Babylon" is IWWB-speak for people who are not in the group, be they orthodox Christians, Muslims or atheists.

In contrast, here is some audio from another bible-study where Vinson says there are those who want to literally physically crucify members of the IWWB group -

Mike Vinson: "We do NOT try to do anything about the person without the body of Christ who slaps us on the face or who wants to put us up on the cross and literally physically crucify us. We can't do anything about those things, that is all God's work in our lives and we just have to accept it..."

Link to YouTube where the audio can be heard: [youtu.be]

A question to Rick if he is reading this would be whether this kind of rhetoric ("they do hate us," "they're going to hate you," "If you're Christ, you're hated" etc) is typical of cult-groups who seek to isolate their members inside the group and distance them from outsiders. It certainly seems engineered to do just that but I have little experience in dealing with cults.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2013 03:30PM by Truth_Seeker_78.

Mike Vinson continues to flame his family members live on bible-studies. There is no more revealing thing than the way a man interacts and speaks about his family, in my opinion.

Here are the YouTube links, for those interested in hearing this man:

[youtu.be]

[youtu.be]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2013 10:45AM by Truth_Seeker_78.

Just an update to the IWWB (iswasandwillbe) cult headed up by Mike Vinson. I am the original poster, but had to change my username to log back into the new forum.

As some may recall, IWWB member Robin Korevaar came onto the forum here to defend father Mike and the IWWB group. However, what instead took place was that he ended up indicting the group as a cult, with Rick Ross giving his assessment of the group based on Robin's responses as: "a classic cult."

Robin Korevaar has now been expunged from the group (forcibly removed and now shunned) because he did not accept the authority of Mike Vinson and his hatchet man Mitch Kuhn.

As I understand it, there was some robust discussion as to whether the IWWB members are following "Christ" or the IWWB elders/leaders. Those who said they are following "Christ" and not the IWWB leaders (Mike Vinson, etc.) were deemed "rebels" and "diseased branches" and asked to repent, or to risk being removed from the group. Korevaar said he was following "Christ" and has now been removed from the group, along with a number of other people.

Korevaar wrote to me after this had taken place and admitted he wasn't as knowledgeable about all of this as he had first professed.

Robin sent out an email to well over 30 recipients where he said the following:

Quote
Robin Korevaar
It is absolutely mindblowing to me to hear all kinds and types of accusations that there are being made towards us ... your former brothers and sisters ... people who you spent years and years of fellowship with .... by your leaders.

Just listen carefully to that sermon and then think hard for yourselves if it is true what is been said about the people that where kicked out, or left themselves, not wanting to undergo this “loving Matth 18” treatment. Over the years, many came and many went ... many of them did not leave Scripture, they did not leave Christ, and Christ did and does not leave them ... abiding in Christ is something completely different then abiding in IWWB and the ones claiming leadership .... yet .... I get the feeling many seem to think abiding in IWWB = abiding in Christ.

Much more was said, but this is the crux of the matter. Korevaar is still looking at matters in a very black/white manner but I am glad he is now out of the group and can begin the healing process.

Cheers

Hi - I just received a private message from a person and I have tried replying but I am not really sure if the person received it or it was sent. I ticked the box "copy to my sent items" but it did not show up.

The message was regarding the fallout with Robin K and Mike Vinson. The person said they have a family member who just joined and that they heard a completely different story. Well, that's to be expected isn't it? Mike and his band of elders will spin anything to make it sound like they are the epitome of Christian values when in truth they do/say/act as they please.

I have audio on my soundcloud page where you can hear Mike Vinson and his elders reviling gay marriage, homosexuals, other Christian groups, their family members etc. Here is the link: soundcloud.com/iwwbexposed

Anyway, my reply to the person who private messaged me is as follows:

Hi ______. Yes, you can read the entire letter if you wish to do so. Firstly, check my blog page iwwbexposed.blogspot.com

I have links to audio/video and more there which indict Mike Vinson as simply another ex-WWCoG (world-wide church of god) member who has repackaged many of Herbert W Armstrong's teachings and then gathered a small army of fellow believers around himself and declared that he has the "truth" to the exclusion of all other Christian ministries and groups.

Mike is an unstable person in my opinion and shows signs of being borderline mentally ill. He has estranged his family (his own adult kids) over his doctrines and the manner in which he demands absolute conformity to his way of thinking.

Anyway, on my blog you will find a post there titled "another implosion at IWWB" which details the history of Mike kicking people out of the fellowship and then lying through his teeth about it afterwards. He has done this with his own children and continues to do it with members past and present.

Here is a link to that post:
[iwwbexposed.blogspot.com]

I do have Robin's email address but I am not in a place to give it out. When I met Robin (online of course) he was brainwashed and would defend Mike and IWWB at every turn. I eventually got sick of his denials and blocked him on FaceBook, only to hear through the grapevine later that he had dared to say that he was not following Mike and Mitch and the other IWWB elders but rather Christ personally, and not exclusively via the agency of IWWB.

Bear in mind that Mike declared his own son to be: "not part of the body anymore" because his son would not get in on the IWWB bible-studies.

For this "sin" Robin and a few others were expunged from the group and labelled as "rebels" who would not submit to leadership.

One of the IWWB elders (Mitch Kuhn) even went so far as to say that to speak with Robin is the same as having sex with a pig and shooting your ejaculate into the animal. Yes, I know this sounds too crazy to be the truth but I have it all on audio and have posted it live via soundcloud for the world to see/hear. These guys (IWWB) are off the chain in their delusions.

Anyway, perhaps if you forwarded me your email, I can message Robin and he can then make contact with you?

Thanks for reaching out and sorry to hear about your family member getting involved. Please point your family members to my blog for some first hand information about this man and his so-called "ministry."

A "cult" is a mental dysfunction which is not limited to religious and spiritual institutions. It's a product of the mind which is not exclusive to "religious nuts". I believe it's reasonable to believe in there being one truth....the problem arises when you claim ownership of it. Speaking more philosophically, the Truth doesn't call itself the Truth. It just is. The Truth is not concerned about us vs. them - a common product of the cult mindset.

I'm a former member of IWWB. I was with them for close to 8 years. I resonated deeply with the spiritual ideas/teachings and still do. But i think i may have been more transparent than most of them about existential struggles and grappling with the spiritual work. The church focuses so much on the tribulation of the saints. I was very honest about my struggles and confusions and very open publicly about them. I eventually became very mentally unstable in front of everyone for various reasons - but primarily because of my struggles with spiritual realities (i had spiritual understanding, but no spiritual power - which, to them equated as having no spiritual understanding). But it should also be known that in tandem with that i related still deeply with the teachings, i often spoke to others and we shared in a perceived unity and agreement in the Spirit. My mental state got worse and worse, and publicly so, and i was eventually removed for this. Had i kept those things private i would still be, according to them, a member of the body of Christ.

Actually, one of my sources of mental anguish was how if i was struggling with something it was as if i was not one of them....but when they saw me in tandem and in unity then suddenly i was one of them....i was going to be used of God to "save many alive." I was grappling with all of these strange and confusing things and even pointed out this contradictory confusion a couple times. I don't write here to accuse anyone. Ever since i was young, i've always put great focus on being fair with those around me....i never want to depict something inaccurately....that's not my intent to smear. In my first paragraph i mentioned that the cult is a mindset. I believe its unintentional. It's not done with malice. I don't know anything about other cults, but i'd imagine IWWB is more difficult to perceive as a cult on the inside because it has so many elements which are polar opposite of cult behavior. In this thread there has been mention of black and white vs. grey areas. The cult mindset of IWWB is a grey area....but i now know that the cult mindset is part of the story.

IWWB is very benevolent for the most part. You never felt like things were crooked or dysfunctional. The great love i received, the countless hours of others helping me. The beautiful times i shared with others. Anybody on the outside judging IWWB as a black and white cult would not be able to fathom that the love often shared would be the same as the love they've shared in their social networks, family, friends. The truth is that the spiritual teachings of IWWB are a bit unique, but really not as unique as believed. When i was removed, i began researching Gnosticism. I couldn't believe my eyes. The spiritual teachings of IWWB mirror so heavily so many of the Gnostic Christ readings. In my last 6 months with IWWB I could not shake my revelation that many of the truths of IWWB were actually spread out all over the world. You even have very popular (not persecuted) philosophers/thinkers now espousing the legitimacy of the free will myth. The myth of free will is practically a cornerstone in IWWB teachings.

I will confess that i was difficult many times in IWWB - I was emotionally volatile at times - but this volatility didn't seem to have a clear source....i would just explode in anguish and not really speak or write coherently. These were very very rarely ever attacks towards any person It's obviously a long story...but in the end i was given the following assessments:

1. I'm not one of them and never was and that essentially God is not saving me right now
2. I'm antichrist because i felt they couldn't perceive what was wrong with me
3. I was a God-hater
4. I'm too self-centered
5. I'm trying to divide and scatter the church
6. I'm manipulating everyone
7. I'm pretending to be having my experience.
8. I'm mocking everyone

I'd say that 95% of this really threw me for a loop, but i kept my mouth shut. I was removed and was agreeable with the decision. In my mind i was overwhelmed by the accusations....but while it was happening i believed them. I was already suffering from dissociation - i trusted them so much and was always quick to acknowledge my blindness (going back to the transparency thing). So here i was delivered the most devastating pile of accusations someone could receive, all publicly, and all shrouded in being delivered with love to me. But i did not disagree with them at first....i trusted what they said and attempted to soul search in even deeper torment for weeks.

Most cults operate with a single leader. IWWB operates with a group of elders and Mike Vinson. There's no crafty amount of verbiage which can take away the reality that Mike Vinson really is the last say on a matter. Sure, he discusses things with the multitude of counselors - but he definitely runs things. I try to be fair and accurate in my depictions - and i'm being fully honest on this reality. Do others elders run things or make decisions sometimes? Yes, but there's never anything that happens in the church that Mike doesn't touch. So it would be unheard of for there to be an issue going on and for Mike to not speak up. Unconsciously, we always kind of waited for his input. There were elders...and then there was elder Mike. But i do not see it as intentional cult behavior....i don't think he believes he is pulling something on anyone. Everything is actually rigorously backed up by Scripture. It's the cult experience of the mind shared within a group of people sharing the same cult experience of the mind - this is not just a cult "group". I don't see Mike as a vindictive cult leader - rather, i DO see cult mindsets in the group now.

When you look at the Bible, Christ is actually kind of like a cult leader. He's changing the minds of the entire creation into His mind. This was actually kind of a rebuttal in the church to cult accusations. But one of the most glaring evidences of cult behavior was the constant and very emphatic focus on keeping the unity - that Mike and others are an overseer of the flock. In every last matter, the primary focus was unity. On the surface, this makes sense. Why would you not want unity? If you were an employer and you had employees, you'd want there to be unity in your business, right? The problem is deeper, though. Many in the church don't agree with everything the elders or Mike decide. But there's a kind of fear with vocalizing any concerns. And if they are vocal, i've heard stories of someone trying to be divisive for even going there. In a spiritual community, Christ can't be divided....if it's actually Christ, right? If someone is preaching a false doctrine and the elders are going to kill it, the "elect can't be deceived" (a verse oft quoted). So if someone is removed from the fellowship they were never elect. If the whole basis of the group is an elect group in preparation for salvation of the world would it even be possible to be scattered? What if someone were removed for false doctrine and accused of never being one of them and then later the church realizes their error (which they are known to)....will that person removed still be against the body of Christ? I'll explain this better below:

In the event of one member being removed a few years back, the elders took him to task publicly, the church followed the elders - we were keeping the unity, right? But then the elders realized they were wrong (not a black and white cult characteristic)...and so then now the church realized they were wrong - we were keeping the unity, right? Oh, but then the elders realized they were actually right the first time - oh, and then we all followed in line - we were keeping the unity, right? Regardless of if the final decision was a good one or not - the group think mentality here was anything but spiritual. It was, to put it somewhat simplistically, fear of being outside the group. In IWWB you're given to feel you're very unique (not boasting per se) and have a special understanding of Christ....and, i will admit to this day that it actually is very unique in more respects than not. But you're also faced with this new fear which comes with that - that if you leave the group or are kicked out you're treated like a heathen - that you've lost the truth - the most incredible gift in the world - that you basically are just in the worst possible place if you're not in the group. A few years ago i experienced a major flood on top of many other stressors at once. I had an emotional breakdown. I was scolded by the group and told to not have pity on me just because i'd just experienced what i did. I was called a lunatick. But with the ex-member story at the beginning of this paragraph - when Mike had made the wrong decision about a matter i actually remember noticing that while he did "repent" he followed it up with the reason why he did what he did. And one of the elders chimed in saying something like, "Mike had been traveling for two days and was just utterly exhausted and was not in the right frame of mind."

What i've come to see is that this church negates really all spiritual insight by trying to take ownership of what they see. They somewhat self-consciously allude frequently to how the world will find them arrogant to say they know the truth. They very well may know the truth or a lot of it - but to then create this us. vs. them mentality is, i believe, twisting the words of Christ. It's putting way too much emphasis on the division that Christ alludes to. There are far more scriptures referencing the virtue of not having arrived and having need of more than there are of being hated and of there being a division in the world. IWWB will say that their realizing their need of more is what makes them unique. There are many in the world that could hear an IWWB teaching and agree with any or all of it. Suppose someone outside of the church agreed with one part of it. Is this not hearing the voice of Christ, according to them? What if they hear it incompletely? Are they half hearing? The very definition of unity in IWWB is being able to come to agreement. The ones that stay along for the ride are considered faithful - nevermind the secret dysfunction they may be hiding.

So what are the generalized histories of IWWB members. Alarmingly, a good percentage come from World Wide Church of God (a cult). I don't know why this is, really. But this reality, in and of itself, is really concerning when you think of it. That so many members of an old cult would now be in this group. I actually asked an elder what the through line is of the members. He said that most people in the church are very weak people (in the virtuous sense), they come from a place of suffering a lot in life. In the scriptures, it is often quoted how they are the base and weak of the world that Christ uses. The chiefest of sinners. This is all very comforting, as i also related, to feeling like i was worthless and that my life meant nothing. In a conversation with an elder towards the end, i remember he said something to me like, "You know, what if we're wrong? What if none of this is true? Well, then if it's not we will be happy we were faithful." If you pull something like this apart, it is full of Biblical errors. In the Bible, Christ is the way, truth, and life. If Christ is what you believe in, then it's not your prerogative of if you're wrong....Christ would be what is Right. What this statement seems to indicate is a subconscious belief in the system that's been created - with its doctrines and worldview - rather than a true focus on a spirit of Truth. IWWB will call out "Babylon" churches which have "statements of belief". They say this is wrong because you can't divide Christ into doctrines. And yet, within IWWB there really are doctrines....very many of them....but it will be simplified, saying "The entire Bible is our statement of belief." If that elder realized he could be wrong then why was i publicly told when i was removed that their church is for people who KNOW they are sons, who KNOW they are Christ, who KNOW they're being judged, who KNOW the truth. It's fine to say you know the truth - but to accuse me of not belonging because i struggle with faith and belief in a very proactive sense seems to kind of destroy their confidence for me. It makes me feel like what they have is very tainted....that it is, god forbid i say it, actually kind of self-righteous and arrogant. Maybe i'm able to see this because i see the same things in myself.

Here are a few doctrines which IWWB teaches that are actually not as clear or direct in the Bible as all the other doctrines they teach. Yes, spiritual things are hidden, but i've wondered about these doctrines if they actually hold the weight that IWWB gives them above other doctrines:

1. Those in the first resurrection will be what purifies the rest of mankind in the second resurrection. The book of Revelation is very muddy and vague on this topic and never outright says this. A verse (not 4 or 5 or 6) which is quoted often is Obadiah 1:21: "And saviors will arise on Mount Zion" - emphasizing the plurality of Christ's salvation plan. Any other verse, if used, is just not clear on this. They will say that the sum of the word says this - but i'm not fully convinced.
2. If we are following Christ and being as he is in the world we should therefore call ourselves Christ. Believing that you are spiritually Christ is one thing. Emphasizing this and using it to create an us. vs. them incitement to be hated of all men by calling yourself Christ is another - and i don't feel it's a spiritual reading of the Bible. Even Christ said I AM. The spirit of Christ says this. The spirit of Christ does not try and distinguish himself from others. I totally believe it's possible for people to hate you for following Christ - but to smear this in, emphasize it, use it as a form of validation is....not....really...Christ. At least i don't believe it is.

Here are a collection of negative statements i have received while in the church and still a member:

1. I don't trust you. If you struggle with finding truth then you are against it.
2. Who knows, you may be a Judas Iscariot, i mean i don't know..
3. You're killing and drinking the blood of the prophets - after i confessed to a member that i felt/was concerned they might hate me.
4. You are a lunatick (referencing Bible)

Anybody in the church would vouch for my focus on finding Truth. But i struggled a lot feeling like i wasn't a son of God - that i didn't really belong - despite the fact that i was relating on so many levels and loved the fellowship in many ways. Often i was told that this is normal for those who are sons....to be taunted by Satan, "If you be the son of God..." I was told that i shouldn't publicly talk about that struggle so much because they receive those taunts often enough. But when i was removed i was told the very things that they always claimed were Satanic taunts. It seems rather clear why i might fall into deep confusion.

When i was removed from the church i was deeply afflicted....and, interestingly, relieved. It's been a crazy process of surveying the past and picking through the rubble - it's a very complex matter. I believe they have a lot right - and i'm starting to gather that what they get wrong they get very very wrong. But this kind of thing is actually forewarned in the Bible of happening - those saying they are of Christ actually being the synagogue of Satan. I'm not making this accusation or really even believe it. But if i or someone else were to tell them that they would say that it's self-righteous and arrogant and blind.....but if they say it about other churches then it is ok....they are just misunderstood. They will say we are the only group that looks like a cult in many ways but actually isn't. This issue is far beyond IWWB - it's a problem in mankind.