Sorry, I just noticed a big mistake in my above post.

It should have read, "...from a set of unpublished and uncopyrighted notes that were written by a former counselor for the Wellspring Retreat."

They were neither published nor copyrighted. I studied those notes thoroughly when I was in therapy, and then "tweaked" and adapted them in order to apply them to the JC cult.

Also, I did that as well with sections of this interview. I have decided that now is the time to show all of you this. I always planned on doing so, and have decided that the stars are aligned properly tonight.

I doesn't matter if we're talking about a high-school class project or a modestly-successful NRM: the group dynamics, the social-psychological influences and the internal and external mechanisms of control are roughly equivalent from situation to situation. And the comments and experiences are a constant, too.

In other words, I could be reading you the testimony of a former member of the Twelve Tribes cult, but in a certain context and in such a way that if you didn't know any better you'd think that I was reading you the testimony of an ex-Jesus Christian. See what I mean? They're all kind of interchangable like that. Lots of similarities, common experiences.

I'm trying to, and have been trying to, how the commonalities between groups and demonstrate that in a sense none of them are unique. A high-control, abusive group is a high-control, abusive group by any other name. They're all cults.

[www.twelvetribes-ex.com]

The Community maintains its own criteria for judging fruit which states “Judge a tree by its fruit. If the fruit is rotten the tree is rotten.” They proclaim that the Twelve Tribes are for everyone and that those who fail to respond will suffer physical and spiritual death. Community members believe that Yahshua only grants protection to them. Because people can’t implicitly obey Elbert Eugene Spriggs some have committed suicide. Often young adults leave their parents to join the Community. The man and wife relationship is repeatedly destroyed. Although the Tribes outwardly promote personal relationships, these friendships are not allowed to develop or flourish even between married couples. Many married couples surrender their home (to the Tribes), remain in the Community 5 or 10 years and then get kicked out or they may decide to leave which reduces them to zero financially, spiritually and emotionally. This scene plays out quite often in the Twelve Tribes. What kind of shape are these people reduced to after contact with the Community? This is the visible fruit.

[forum.culteducation.com]

The JCs maintains its own criteria for judging fruit which states “Judge a tree by its fruit. If the fruit is rotten the tree is rotten.” They proclaim that the JCs are for everyone and that those who fail to respond will suffer physical and spiritual death. Community members believe that Jesus only grants protection to them. Young adults leave their parents to join with the JCs. The man and wife relationship is repeatedly tempered with, as well. Because people can’t implicitly obey David McKay some have attempted suicide. Some ex-members have reportedly committed suicide. Although the JCs outwardly promote personal relationships with non-members, these friendships are not allowed to develop or flourish. Many remain in the JCs 5 or 10 years, or for however long, and then get kicked out or they may decide to leave which reduces them to zero financially, spiritually and emotionally. What kind of shape are these folks reduced to after contact with the JCs? This is the visible fruit of the Jesus Christians.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2011 08:04AM by zeuszor.

Many remain in the JCs 5 or 10 years, or for however long, and then get kicked out or they may decide to leave which reduces them to zero financially, spiritually and emotionally. What kind of shape are these folks reduced to after contact with the JCs? This is the visible fruit of the Jesus Christians.

It can be a long and hard road to recovery. In most cases the cult has dominated their adult lives.

If they need any inspiration then look no further than Malcolm, Kevin and Apostate who now live happy and fruitful lives.

The road to recovery requires huge bravery. The bravery to stand up and say.... NO DAVID!

It's a step into the unkown for many of these people.....

[www.youtube.com]

Quote
Apollo
If they need any inspiration then look no further than Malcolm, Kevin and Apostate who now live happy and fruitful lives.

Salut!

Thank you for your kind observations, Apollo and Zeuszor.....although I suspect that Stoic would be a far more "inspirational example" than I....

I was fortunate enough to have been there early enough to have been able to witness some good in McKay....a once warmly humane man, able to offer considerable insight into the sort of commitment that "faith" actually necessarily entailed.....that's his lust for power has killed off the very traits that once attracted people to him, is an old story now...

Pardon me for my absence of late....having been distracted ....just can't help but enjoy the pressing news of Gadaffi's long deserved demise....

Here's the virtually unknown inspirational example who wrote 'Steppin Razor' and taught all the Wailers to sing:


[www.youtube.com]


Talking and singing:

[www.youtube.com]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2011 07:40PM by Stoic.

Oh so cool. Irie-I. Thanks for that, Stoic. This is a cool version here:

[www.youtube.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2011 08:30PM by zeuszor.

[forum.culteducation.com]

The Jesus Christians should use their own criteria to judge themselves. If they did they would disband and everyone would leave today.

[www.twelvetribes-ex.com]

The Twelve Tribes should use their own criteria to judge themselves. If they did they would disband and everyone would leave today.

;-)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2011 10:49PM by zeuszor.

Quote
Stoic
Here's the virtually unknown inspirational example who wrote 'Steppin Razor' and taught all the Wailers to sing:


[www.youtube.com]


Talking and singing:

[www.youtube.com]

I remember watching this on TV, on SNL when I was a kid. It was my first exposure to reggae music, this Eddie Murphy sketch. Still hilarious after all these years.

[video.google.com]

"Wait, I thought they were gonna do Day-O!" This still cracks me up.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2011 11:42PM by zeuszor.

I had retired almost two years earlier, so it would not matter if they continued to attack me, so long as the others could branch out, take on new names, create their own web sites, produce their own material (as well as using whatever material from me that they wanted, on the understanding that they were just pushing the message and not the guy who wrote it).

Hmmmmmmmmmm it'll be interesting to see in five years time if we're talking about various cults who are offshoots of the Jesus Christians. We may need to create a new thread titled ''Offshoots of the Jesus Christians''.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2011 12:03AM by Apollo.

We all know that the JCs will never change as long as DM is the sole uncontested leader. DM may write new teachings or they may live in new places or they may wear their hair different or wear different clothes (or they may "graduate") but the basic theme will always be obedience to DM and his teachings. DM exercises sole unchallenged control over the JCs with no one to keep him in check. DM promotes the idea of checks and balances in his teachings, and that no one person should ever exert sole leadership of a religious movement or community, but his own lifestyle runs contrary to his teachings.

[forum.culteducation.com]

Elbert told the story about how God chose Billy Graham to be an apostle and raise up communities but he chose to defile his conscience in the pursuit of world renown as an evangelist. Gene said that Billy Graham loves power and fame more than his calling. In talking about Billy Graham, Elbert gave a really good definition of himself as he loves power and acclaim. In making these statements we are not interested in seeking revenge or trying to be a disgruntled ex member but to inform people so they can make a choice based on facts. We know that the Tribes will never change as long as Elbert Eugene Spriggs is the sole uncontested leader. Spriggs may write new teachings or they may live in new places or they may wear their hair different or wear different clothes but the basic theme will be obedience to him and his teachings.

[www.twelvetribes-ex.com]

They might be talking about either Spriggs or McKay. Presented in a new context, and with some adjustments, these could just as well be the words of a former Jesus Christian, down to the Billy Graham adulation.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2011 12:12AM by zeuszor.