Thanks Misstyk. You and Corboy are providing useful information rather than opinionated rants! This is a huge relief for me.
2 points:
1. Although I agree in principle with your suggestion for an independent board of directors and a signed pledge, I veer away from over emphasis on beaurocracy. Its a fine line and I think this level of reorganisation needs more brainstorming until a nuanced formula emerges.
2. Shamar R has taken the line of least resistance and I am not sure that this is a good move. TB IS the Vajrayana. Trungpa R devised a useful schema -- he had his students on Mahayana study and practice until they had developed Samatha and an understanding of Bodhicitta. I know, I know -- he's hardly an example of a sober,monogamous democrat, but he was by far the most realised and street wise TB teacher we have experienced in the developed world. We know by now that Vajrayana/Tantra can go dangerously awry and I agree that there is a case for the graduated path. Being a long-standing Dzogchen practitioner this is a doctrinal contradiction for me, but I also know that the esoteric traditions are just that -- esoteric -- and the reason they have been kept secret for generations is because they are so easily misunderstood and mis-applied.

The Dialogue Ireland site has clearly been targeted by Rigpa people. I finally called them on it.

How to ensure ethical behavior, whether via a board of directors, contract, or some other means, is a worthwhile discussion. I think the only way to send a strong message, and also ensure compliance, is by drawing up a strict contract. You can be sure that word would spread throughout India like wildfire if a hands-off-the-students policy were put in writing with signature required, and teachers all were given briefings on the legal implications of inappropriate behavior. That would be quite a change of tune. Though that wouldn't be applicable in cases like Sogyal, who found and run their own organizations.

I don't know how one judges "most realized" in the case of someone whose behavior was out of control, and who died of alcoholism. Statements by former students also reveal Trungpa was a drug addict. That seems like an odd standard of "realization", but maybe that's just me...

RE: Vajrayana, I'll admit that at this point, I'm for throwing out the baby with the bathwater. It's extremely difficult to practice and teach such a path without falling prey to temptation, although I'm aware there are a rare few who pull it off. I can't speak about Dzogchen, but research into the sexual practices shows that it's about raising the Kundalini energy (tummo, or "Inner Fire"). That can be done via a dedicated meditation practice and guidance, as Gopi Krishna's experience shows, in "Living With Kundalini". So there's clearly more that one way to skin the cat, and if one method is producing too much human wreckage, why not opt for the safer path?

Anytime secrecy is required, it opens the door to rampant abuse. I can't see any way of reconciling the need for secrecy with the need for safety, other than chucking the whole mess out, unless some sort of accountability structure can be set up, and that, itself, would be open to corruption and abuse. As far as misuse of the teachings goes -- the cat is already long out of the bag, as so many available courses on pseudo-tantra attest. The genie can't be put back in the bottle. Besides, it's the secrecy that allows for the teachers themselves to mis-apply the tradition, is it not? I understand the whole dilemma, I just don't see an effective solution.

Just some thoughts. I think this forum provides a rare opportunity to debate these issues rationally and in good faith.

Both RR and Dialogue Ireland are currently hosting an unauthorized translation of an article which first appeared in the French magazine, Marianne.

In addition to the unauthorized translation, Dialogue Ireland is also hosting an unauthorized repost of the French original.

I have an interest in accessing the article, as I believe it contains information relevant to my own research; however, I'm curious why the legal steps necessary to repost magazine articles were not followed. Beyond that, as a non-native French speaker, I want to be assured the translation is approved by its author, so there will be as few misunderstandings as possible when working with it.

Marianne states clearly their policy on reposting articles:

“Intellectual Property

All elements (text, logos, images, software , layout, database, …) contained in the site and associated sites are protected by national and international law of intellectual property. These elements remain the exclusive property of Marianne and/or its partners. As such, unless with prior written permission of Marianne and / or its partners, you can not make any reproduction, adaptation, translation and/or total or partial transformation, or transfer to another web site any material from the site. Failure to comply with these restrictions may constitute trademark infringement a criminal offense.”

Again, my personal concern is the translation - in working with this document, I want to be assured it is a translation approved by its author, at the least. Obviously Marianne has additional concerns as to both transferring and translating the article without permission, but I believe Mary should take that up with them. Best outcome would be that Marianne approves the article's repost, Mary's edit, and the translation; however as of this moment, best I can tell, they have approved none of these things.

I received this email from Marianne's chief web editor, Mathieu Maire du Poset - he says the translation has not been approved by Marianne:

Mathieu Maire du Poset
5:29 AM (7 hours ago)

to me

Bonjour

non elle n'a pas été approuvée par nous.

Cordialement,

Mathieu Maire du Poset

[Moderator note: posting contact information is against the rules of this message board]


I will forward my email conversation with M. du Poset to whomever would like it. His email address is listed on Marianne2.fr.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2011 08:32PM by rrmoderator.

I don't think that this forum is the place to fight the battles over intellectual property rights that Dialogue Ireland might or might not have with a French magazine.
If the magazine wants to pursue that with DI that is their business and DI can respond as they see fit.

Red herring, Sile.


Regarding the safety of 'higher' practices--they are not safe, they pose risks and that should be made clear before the practitioner gets anywhere near them. The guru is supposed to be a good judge of what his student can handle and adjust accordingly--reason enough to stay away from anyone with an alcohol or drug problem.

The risks aren't ever going to go away no matter how many safeguards are put into place--we just aren't that slick--and some things, like life itself, are inherently risky. I don't think that is a reason to ban them for those who are keen to take responsibility for themselves, knowing that the risk of failure is high. We learn to walk by falling down constantly and constantly getting up.

People still jump out of airplanes knowing that they have a good chance of 'going in' one day through an unforseen conjunction of circumstances. That is an argument for knowing what you are getting into, relentless training and acceptance of the risks involved--not an argument for banning parachute jumping.

I do agree though, that predators such as Sogyal should be exposed and prosecuted, not tolerated for the megabucks that he brings to the organisation. The man's a fraud in every sense of the word.

And a rigorous system of accountability would help with clergy of all denominations who can't keep their trouser snakes under control and under their robes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2011 11:40PM by Stoic.

Rick Ross is violating copyright law by hosting the article.

More importantly to researchers and potential victims, the translation has not been approved by its author, nor by its publisher.

The translation may be an excellent one, but it needs to be approved so we know what we're discussing here, with few misunderstandings. That in fact is one reason international copyright law forbids reposting unauthorized translations.

Whether in English or French, reposting an article in its entirety, without permission, is against the law.

I suspected Sile is a creation of the Rigpa spin dept. -- now I am sure. I have to hand it to them -- they are well trained in the dark arts. Almost as skilled as Bell Pottinger who were cast into the Vajra Hell today by an investigative sting published in The Independent. The difference between the Rigpa zombies who deploy all manner of dirty tricks, character assassinations and sock puppetry -- and Bell Pottinger is that BP gets paid £1million to whitewash brutal dictatorships, while the Rigpa folk are slave labourers.

Thanks for a thoughtful and sensible post, Stoic. Food for thought.

I agree that to be forewarned is to be forearmed, and therefore there needs to be a warning label on this tradition. I'm encouraged by the appearance on the scene of an important reincarnation who is speaking out about a corrupt and abusive system, and has already enacted reforms in one of his main centers in Europe. On his first speaking tour to the West, he found some of his centers (meaning: centers founded by his previous incarnation) abandoned, and another dominated by corrupt lamas. He got several earfuls of reports of abuse of disciples. He took this all to heart, and succeeded (after being threatened with legal action by the entrenched monks) in removing the old guard and starting with a fresh crew, who he says is trustworthy and safe to study with. If you're interested, you can read more in the last several posts on the thread: Child Sexual Abuse in Tibetan Buddhist Monasteries here on RR.

Yes, the guru is supposed to be a good judge of who is ready for advanced teachings, but there are so few who have integrity and who are genuinely concerned with the welfare of their students, that they are a rarity. It's not just the ones with substance abuse problems. Predatory behavior is endemic in a number of Eastern spiritual traditions, so students need to know from the start that they must proceed with caution. Predators should be exposed for who they are, but that's difficult to do in a litigious society. The Dalai Lama says to speak out, name names, take the matter to the media and if necessary, to the police, but there was no such thing as libel law in Tibet. Filing reports or criminal charges is far from the simple matter he makes it out to be, unfortunately. It's easy to denounce someone if you're the spiritual and temporal head of the country, as the DL did with his first regent. Almost impossible for ordinary folks.

I'm curious to know how victims of Catholic clergy abuse finally managed to get their charges taken seriously, and how the current investigations got started. If the victims are children, that's a different matter than if they are adults. It's impossible to prove psychological coercion, let alone assault. All that can be done is allege "breach of fiduciary trust", as happened in the Sogyal case, and most people dismiss that as inconclusive, because it was settled out of court. In other words, the breach of trust charge is not winnable in court. If you don't have media reports or a court case to cite, everyone says accusations are lies or hearsay. So there's no way I can see, having researched this, to expose predatory clergy.

Quote
Misstyk
I'm curious to know how victims of Catholic clergy abuse finally managed to get their charges taken seriously

By filing in criminal court.

Lets keep the focus on

SOGYAL RINPOCHE

And...lets remember what a red herring was.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss SOGYAL RINPOCHE and concerns voiced about him.

People who wanted to disrupt fox hunts by distracting the hunting dogs would smear a smoked herring to get the dogs to go away from the scent of the fox or deer.

SOGYAL RINPOCHE

SOGYAL RINPOCHE

SOGYAl RINPOCHE

[www.nizkor.org]


Known as: Smoke Screen, Wild Goose Chase.

Description of Red Herring
A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:


Topic A is under discussion.
Topic B is introduced under the guise of being relevant to topic A (when topic B is actually not relevant to topic A).
Topic A is abandoned.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because merely changing the topic of discussion hardly counts as an argument against a claim.

Examples of Red Herring

"We admit that this measure is popular. But we also urge you to note that there are so many bond issues on this ballot that the whole thing is getting ridiculous."

"Argument" for a tax cut:
"You know, I've begun to think that there is some merit in the Republican's tax cut plan. I suggest that you come up with something like it, because If we Democrats are going to survive as a party, we have got to show that we are as tough-minded as the Republicans, since that is what the public wants."


"Argument" for making grad school requirements stricter:
"I think there is great merit in making the requirements stricter for the graduate students. I recommend that you support it, too. After all, we are in a budget crisis and we do not want our salaries affected."

SOGYAL RINPOCHE IS BEING DISCUSSED HERE]

Nothing else.

SOGYAL RINPOCHE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!