I am very glad to have the board back. Here is a most interesting conversation from a message board that serves the needs of persons who feel damaged by having been entangled with personality disordered people.

[thepsychopath.freeforums.org]

(what follows is from the second page of this discussion)

One lone person, 'disengaged' was the lone voice of reason and critical thinking.

'Disenagaged' made a post on July 15th that suggests that there is one licensed mental health professional out there, a psychiatrist no less, who seemed to know what is going on. One wonders if this MD happened to have read a portion of this discussion thread.

(quote)Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:43 pm Post subject:

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" I was just going to let this go, but I really don't want to leave anyone with the impression that by saying I have "mixed feelings" that it should be misconstruded as meaning I am somehow angry, insulted or anything of the sort.

"I read the book only because it happened to be sitting on the desk of the psychiatrist my husband and I are seeing--who is a specialist in "cult deprogramming".

"I asked him about it and he told me he was reading it for research purposes because it appeared on one of his cult lists, but he didn't recommend it--I of course had to read it to find out why. (Understand though that the book "The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People" also appears on that same supposed "cult" list.)

I think it's better explained in Katie's own words from her book, "Losing the Moon", where she starts talking about a man who "learned to hate" on the day he personally witnessed Nazi's ripping babies out of their mothers' arms to burn them alive in a fire pit. Katie's response to this starts on page 35, as follows:

Quote:

If Someone (God, "what is"), pulls my baby from me - if that's what it takes, I'm there. Take the baby. Tear my baby from me. Throw it in the fire....My discomfort is my war with God....
You see, there are NO choices. What is, is....
But when we get to the baby thing, we're getting down to our sacred little concepts now....You take my baby from me, you're messing with the illusion of I'm the mommy, this is the baby, there's the daddy...
But tearing the baby away- that's the higher. That's the higher, because it snatches your story from you and makes it apparent in your face - nothing's real short of reality....
That's it. That's what is. That's love. That's absolutely Un-describable love. That you, God, would even give me that.
Can you know that Hitler didn't bring more people to realization than Jesus? On your knees - God. God! God! But our stories of reality keep us from the awareness of God is Everything. And God is Good. [...]

There has never been evil and there never will be. Evil is simply a story about what's not...

But I have trashed the baby when I have trashed the Nazi... I am the baby going into the pit. I am the one throwing the baby in the pit..." (end of quote from Losing the Moon)

'Disengaged resumes:

OK now, I can't even bring myself to get upset at the insensitivity, callous indifference, and possible racism of this attempt to trivialize the Holocaust. I've read neo-nazi propaganda which does a much better job, even to the point of claiming the Holocaust was completely fabricated for no other reason than to discredit Hitler.

But this is so far out in left field that I can't even identify enough to get upset. I can't see a single shred of logic, reason or sanity in any of it. I just can't.

Here's what other people had to say about it though:

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So according to Byron Katie, Nazi's mass murdering Jewish women's babies by burning them to death alive while the mothers watch, is the loving work of God.
As a matter of fact, Byron Katie says that baby killers are "higher" than the illusion of mommy.

There is something very seriously wrong with this very sick person, who is now hiding her true beliefs behind whitewashed manuscripts.


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Whenever someone blames the victims of genocide and war, that lack of compassion upsets me. What you've quoted here makes me feel ill. It's not just a red flag-- it's a big, honkin' neon red banner.


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What I've noticed about the New Age/New Thought movements is that many of its advocates can't comprehend the reality of human evil. They want to think the victims attracted the cruelty, that it's somehow predestined instead of facing the sad fact that humans have free will and can choose to do evil. The Holocaust atrocities happened because people chose to support Hitler and carry out his ideas. It had nothing to do with love and everything to do with fear and hatred of other people.
As a former New Ager, I heartily concur. Byron Katie has made such inroads with the New Age crowd because she gives them what they desperately want... a universe where all is "love and light".

But it ain't. Unfortunately. And Byron Katie exploits the heck out of this.


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Byron Katie literally says its the hand of her "God" literally creating child-rape, and the Nazi mass murder of Jewish babies by being burned alive in firepits at a train station at the end of WWII.
(So the orders of Hitler at the end of the war to murder those children, according to Byron Katie, are literally the work of the "God" of Byron Katie. Its right there in the text...which is why the text has been suppressed).

The material in "Losing The Moon" was pulled from the market and suppressed to save those type of extreme beliefs for deep initiates only. She changed to the "Bait and Switch" method.
They serve a similar purpose to the "lighter" Byron Katie metaphors like being robbed by gun and enjoying it.
Byron Katie does not believe that for herself, its only for you.

This is all a type of dark, twisted deep persuasion of the highest order.
Its meant to be close to the final step, where she sweeps away your entire sense of reality and identity, and replaces it with her own.
Just reading the book "Losing The Moon" will put you flat on your back, it will knock you out, which was clearly its intent. That is why they pulled it off the market. They probably deliver the same material now only in more "advanced" seminars, and don't write it down so they can't get in trouble.

But the intent is clear, its meant to be close to the last step in the process, where Byron Katie takes over, by sweeping away even your most cherished beliefs. Knowing most of her followers are women, she aims to even sweep away the instinct for motherhood, to destabilize your entire identity and personality, so then you only have Byron Katie left to grasp onto.
The text in that book actually needs to be reported to antisemitism authorities and Holocaust Denial and genocide reporters.


And here's what some people had to say about the rather disturbing way in which Katie "counsels"victims of childhood molestation and rape.
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I was muddling through the book and wondering when I'd get to something helpful when I read her exchange with a woman who was repeatedly raped as a child (around age 8 or 9) by her stepfather. Then the author, through a series of questions, ended up turning the blame for the rapes around on the victim, culminating in the idea that rape was the woman's way of receiving love. All this was done in front of an audience. Brainwashing and abuse in the guise of therapy. Ghastly.


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I have a HUGE problem, when in her audio book: "Loving What Is", CD #6, an incest survivor is crying and telling the terrible details of her sexual abuse. I was heart-broken. I was SHOCKED that BK coached her in the "turn-around", to say that she, the ONCE INNOCENT CHILD did "it" for love!!! That she abused herself - AND HER MALE PERPETRATOR/STEP FATHER!!!



Quote:
I listened to this book on CD and tried very hard to keep an open mind...that is, until I came to the part where this woman who had been sexually molested as an 8 year old child by her father spoke with the author. If I had been in the audience, they would have thrown me out, because I would not have sat there and permitted this woman to say and totally accept (as she went through "The Work/Inquiry") that SHE had ABUSED her father, and that SHE was WRONG since she never lied for her stepmother about this abuse (when asked to do so in a court hearing at 14 years of age), yet elected to tell the truth, resulting in her stepmother putting her out and alienating her from the family.

Perhaps the entire point of "The Work/Inquiry" is forgiveness...forgiveness of self and others. Forgiveness is important to one's health, as is self-love and gaining inner peace; however, so is validation. Validation is not about assigning blame or being right; validation is all about (as the author puts it) WHAT IS, without clouding WHAT IS with unjust self-doubt/blame, for doing so is yet ANOTHER FORM OF ABUSE! You HAVE to experience your stories in your OWN way, in your own TIME, and if need be, seek PROFESSIONAL help. You need validation in order to pursue closure. [...]

To apologize to your abusers (as the author suggests) for what they had done (the acts) is a bit sadistic. Give me a break! I can see the health benefit in offering forgiveness/acceptance only for the abuser, the person, but never for the ACT...the vicious act of child abuse.

An interesting read; however, potential for harm is quite evident in "my projection" of what this book teaches. And, this all comes from the heart of a child...a child who has grown and survived child abuse herself.


I won't respond again on this thread. It's up to each individual to make up their own mind. (unquote)

and in an earlier thread from that forum, 'Disengaged wrote:

Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 6:24 pm Post subject:

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Quote:
Katie talks about global problems like pollution and war, saying that there SHOULD be pollution and wars ... because there are. I mean really, how can you argue with that?

Disengaged wrote

Oh I can argue with that all right, because all Katie is engaging in what is called a "circular agument" which is a completely invalid form of reasoning. Her intended argument doesn't prove anything, it simply repeats itself. Also known as "begging the question" or "the fallacy of presumption"...

(Disengaged then quotes from a source describing circular arguments)

This is the most basic and classic example of a Fallacy of Presumption, because it directly presumes the conclusion which is at question in the first place. This can also be known as a “Circular Argument” - because the conclusion essentially appears both at the beginning and the end of the argument, it creates an endless circle, never accomplishing anything of substance.

A good argument in support of a claim will offer independent evidence or reasons to believe that claim. However, if you are assuming the truth of some portion of your conclusion, then your reasons are no longer independent: your reasons have become dependent upon the very point which is contested. The basic structure looks like this:

1. A is true because A is true.


Circular arguments prove absolutely nothing because they do not contain the necessary criteria required to support a logical argument, rendering them invalid. Actually proving an argument requires: True Premises + valid argument = true conclusion.

Just because something IS, it doesn't necessarily follow that it is how it SHOULD be--change occurs constantly!

Just because there are terminal diseases in this world all in itself does not constitute proof that there SHOULD be, or that that we should or even WILL die from them, because new cures are developed--all the time! AIDS is still terminal, and yet there are survivors still living who have now made it past the 20 year mark. Lance Armstrong was diagnosed with terminal cancer and given literally WEEKS to live. He refused to accept that diagnosis, fought, and not only survived, but went on to make history! I guarantee you he didn't accomplish all that by conning himself into believing, "I DON'T want my cancer to stop growing!"

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Can you stop cancer

Disenaged replied

I personally may not be able to stop cancer, however there are researchers and scientists out there who are trying their hardest, and I am fairly confident that one day they will suceed. Just because something's not possible today, doesn't mean it won't be accomplished--tomorrow!

Quote: That's the only world we get, and it's our choice to be pained by how we think it should be instead, or we can love life, even surrounded by bottom-feeders. Because those are the only legitimate choices we have.

Disenaged replied:

And who made that rule? This is like attempting to limit everything to black and white, denying that the rest of the entire color spectrum even exists. This isn't necessarily an "either or" choice. There's a whole range of emotions out there, a myriad of choices, all kinds of different ways for different people to view the world. If I don't elect to view it Katie's way, I'm choosing to be unhappy? Says who, Katie? Since when did she become the ultimate authority (ie., God)?

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Can you somehow make them stop being scumbags, or eliminate them all?

Disengaged replied:

Well, of course not. I can't possibly expect to even meet them all, but I also don't have to just accept it either. I can do something about at least SOME of them, and I DO! I expose them, and actually, I'm pretty good at it. No, I don't think I'm God, I think I'm a forensic accountant/fraud auditor and exposing scum is part of my job description. It's my passion, how do you think I developed it? There's no pain in this for me, I've turned it into a career from which I derive a great deal of satisfaction, and best of all, get paid pretty well to boot!

Now, I want scum to go away, but being as that's not going to happen, I work my hardest on taking as many down as possible, while others work on curing cancer, and together we're all doing our part to at least attempt to make this world a better place in which to live.

Quote:
Anything else is arguing with god, the universe, tilting at windmills.

Disenaged replied:

Who exactly is it that's claiming to be the authority on either God or the universe here? I'm not arguing with God or the universe because I don't believe either one has anything whatsoever to do with pollution, war, or the "evil that mankind inflicts on one another."

Now, hurricanes, earthquakes, and plagues of locusts, well, that's entirely different.

Quote:
This is total psychobabble

(Disenaged replied) It's not psychobabble because Katie is not a psychiatrist, so to me her assertions do not even qualify as "psychobabble." She's not an authority on anything or anyone, well, other than possibly Katie. Just because Katie says something doesn't make it so.

My problem with Katie is the exact same as I have with anyone who takes their own personal philosophies, speculations and conjectures and attempts to convince others that they are somehow "proven fact" using nothing more than the "smoke and mirrors" of known logical fallacies, such as; engaging in circular arguments, denying the antecedent, confirming the consequent, or entertaining paradoxes, ie., "doublethink". I simply do not trust anyone who has to resort to utilizing these types of tactics, and I can go through her book and point these out in almost every argument she makes. I also don't believe that a "one size fits all" blanket solution exists that covers everyone and all situations. Not everyone is going to become skinny by hopping on the Jared train to Subway.

But that said, so what? I have my own path which I know full well is based on nothing more than my own personal "faith"--I don't have anything that remotely resembles "proof positive" either!

Even unproven theories are often subsequently proven correct, so if Katie has found way to ease her own mental anguish and suffering, and developed it into a method to share with others in the hope that it may do the same for them--great!

Even if I argued that I don't feel her methods have a solid basis that has been generally accepted by the psychiatric profession as a whole, it also doesn't necessarily follow that she's wrong either. Giving her method a shot seems certainly preferable to continuing to suffer without even trying to do anything about it, so why not?

If it doesn't work for you, well then you can always try something else, right?

Hugs! (end of 'Disenaged's quote)



(though at the end, Dis weakened it a bit, saying BK's approach might someday be shown to be effective. Disengaged didnt think to ask, straight out, 'Where are the studies, where is the evidence in peer reviewed journals?' Yet despite Dis' polite concession at the very end of this share, it still brought out a typical pattern of invalidation from a BK'r. C)

And note the boiler plate response to 'Disengaged's robust application of critical thinking, by 'NancyCT' on July Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 6:40 pm Post subject'

"Gee Dis, I certainly didn't mean to touch on a nerve here.

(pathologizes the person who has effectively used critical thinking to point out BK not having a clinical licenseC)
I have no intention of arguing that Byron Katie is right. I was only saying it worked for me.

(Typical. And not that SYDA yoga devotees used a similar pattern of invalidating rhetoric when told in detail about the corruption and abuses in their organization--they would bleat 'Well that wasnt my experience'--as if the human cost inflicted on others counted for nothing. C)

The book was a positive influence in my life. By changing my thought patterns the way she described, I was able to view my situation in a whole new light, and was able to leave a long-term relationship in which I was being physically as well as emotionally abused. Getting out was the most difficult thing I've ever done in my life, and I needed all the help I could get. That little book may very well have saved my life.

(She's transitioned into using a method marketed by someone who has no training to be clincian, and who has people sign away their rights to sue for compensation if damaged by participaton in one of the workshops--someone who tells us to be responsible for our lives, but who works without the normal legal accountability humbly accepted by thousands of psychotherapists--who by the way also are legally required to keep complete records and safeguard patient/client confidentialityC)

Of course it wouldn't work for everyone. I've tried plenty of things that didn't work for me, even though other people thought it was wonderful. I wasn't trying to tell you that your view was wrong, I was only trying to explain why it worked for me. Sorry if I caused an emotionally-charged reaction. I really didn't mean to offend in any way..'

(again, dismissing 'Disengaged' as merely generating an emotionaly charged reaction, when what she did was use critical thinking. C)(unquote)

We should invite 'Disengaged' over here where people are actually encouraged to think properly and critically and those with an agenda are called out on their bs :)

Yes, one can be certain that initial "high" is the crack cocaine phase of The Work, engineered right into it. That is always going to wear off, they all use those methods, Landmark, Scientology...

Also, as mentioned, one cannot compare Dr. David Burns, to a person like Byron Katie. He is a medical doctor, who was around for years when CBT was being researched, and he has been a part of countless scientific studies of CBT. That is what made CBT different, they used the scientific method to try and measure what worked.

As far as Self-Esteem, in the first Feeling Good book, I think there is a section which is a little more like REBT, where he talks about not rating the self at all, which is more like basic Self-Acceptance. In his later books, he seems to have backed off that concept, maybe as its too confusing, and gets twisted into self-hatred.
But one will never see in proper cognitive therapy, the kind of twisted thought-distortions of Byron Katie. As a matter of fact, the Byron Katie turnaround, is the #1 Cognitive Distortion.
- ALL or NOTHING Thinking. (that is the #1 cognitive distortion)

also, the recent CBT stuff points to the distortion of excessive Self-Blame, which creates depression.
- Self-Blame: (you blame yourself for something you weren't entrirely responsible for).

The mendacity of the Byron Katie people is really almost unbelievable, how they turn so many things inside-out and backwards, to mess with people's minds.

David Wise who supposedly refers to Byron Katie in that book is not credible in what he says. First off, they give NO PROOF for their assertion. Nothing. They just give their own personal suggestion, and they are in a business relationship with Byron Katie as they are referring people to her website to learn about their pain seminars!!! So that is shilling and viral marketing. Its not credible.
Its a blatant FINANCIAL CONFLICT OF INTEREST. (ever notice that everyone who shills for BK is making money from it? Go figure).

Its interesting how Byron Katie posted that on her blog, (or someone did using her name), right after people are calling for PROOF that The Work does what she says it does.
She has nothing. Zero.
There is literally not one single piece of evidence that The Work does what Byron Katie says. Again, testimonials from people or business partners, are NOT proof! That is called ADVERTISING, like on late night TV when they sell you an Ab-Cruncher.

But since Byron Katie posted on her blog that The Work is a type of "therapy", then would that not mean that those who are charging for The Work, are doing "therapy" without a license?
So then, Byron Katie, and her people, according to Byron Katie's own blog, are doing THERAPY?
Without a license?

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helpme2times

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The Anticult
"The Work" by Byron Katie is not a form of actual Cognitive Therapy, notice how they do not show any links or information about ANY actual studies of The Work?
What they do is just mantion the names of the founders of Cognitive Therapy to try to gain some credibility by false association, and then some anecdotes.

I saw that blog entry and it made my heart sink.

Sure, there was an initial "high" when I first did Byron Katie's work. But that high wore off pretty quickly and I kept trying to recreate it, to no avail.

Alternatively, I am loving Dr. David Burns' book, "Feeling Good", in addition to the work I am doing with a LICENSED THERAPIST! She is helping me recover my SELF-ESTEEM, not trying to DESTROY THE SELF ala Byron Katie. Big difference! I don't think you can destroy the self anyway - short of dying.

The above post about Losing The Moon is very interesting.
They would be very very worried at BKI if that book Losing The Moon, got into the hands of a journalist in Germany.
That could be front page news, or even possibly block a person from entering the country.

Is it a type of Holocaust Denial to say the Nazi atrocities were the work of some type of bizarre "loving" God? That is denying the horrors of the crimes against humanity.
Also, there is a lot more about the Nazi's in the book Losing The Moon, all along the same lines.

One can be certain that the Nazi's and Hitler, Goebbels, and the rest of those mass-murderers, all thought they were doing the work of their "God" too.
Anyone with a shred of humanity in them, who has visited various memorials, and done some research on the crimes of the Nazi's, would be revolted by what Byron Katie is saying.

That's why they made the book Losing The Moon "disappear".
Maybe some Holocaust activists will read that book, and then get the word out.

In reality, the book Losing The Moon should be posted at some place like Wikileaks.org
The book was taken off the market, to try and expunge the past.
Byron Katie is very good at expunging all traces of her own past, her entire career is founded on the same principle.

But as shown above, its a house of cards. Basic methods of critical thinking take the entire thing down in short-order.

Its interesting how people like Byron Katie and Werner Erhard feel the need to constantly cover-up and deny their own past. But it always catches up with them.

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Gulab Jamon
Most call themselves teachers and not gurus. The way they present themselves varies depending on the individual teacher.
****** Guru means teacher. We are all Guru's because we have something to teach. I dated a hindu ex-monk for 3 years and he educated me that parents are Guru's - any teacher is a Guru. A leaf is Guru, a dream and so on.

but instead had an experience or "awakening" on their own which happens to be similar to what Advaita teaches. Both were going through a major depression and "hit bottom" right before their "revelations" happened.
****** My Guru is Advaita Vedantin and he has practices he gives disciples and does NOT want a following. The light just doesn't GO ON, you have to prep it for it to happen, but ET doesn't teach that. It's not uncommon for a spiritual path to depress you because if you are really waking up, you will see alot of ego bs your life has been, and then you start the practices to work past the depression. The light doesn't come out of depression...maybe an 'ah ha!' moment, but not enlightenment.

The problem is that people still have a tendency to put their "teachers" on a pedestal the same way one would a guru. I saw similar problems develop around some Advaita teachers where it seemed like they favored some people over others (i.e. those with money or nice homes).
****** Teacher Guru Guru Teacher, it makes no difference. Some teacheres have pride and some don't. Some want followers and fame (fake ones usually) and some don't. Advaita teachers in general, basically anyone from India who comes over here usually is appreciative of comfort because in India, there is hardly any comfort, so if someone supplies something nice, they will like it becasue they weren't raised with it. It's part of human nature, not greed. There is nothing wrong with alittle comfort. But my Advaita Guru, he loved just spending time in the garden with me and I had very little to give him with the exception of my time and sadhana.

I don't really think it's the fault of Advaita itself, though; just human nature.
****** Bingo. Human nature follows us before enlightenment and after just to a lesser degree afterwards.

Someday I'll post my own Advaita horror story here.

Please do!

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corboy
Here is a most interesting conversation from a message board that serves the needs of persons who feel damaged by having been entangled with personality disordered people.

[thepsychopath.freeforums.org]

One lone person, 'disengaged' was the lone voice of reason and critical thinking.

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(Disenaged replied) It's not psychobabble because Katie is not a psychiatrist, so to me her assertions do not even qualify as "psychobabble." She's not an authority on anything or anyone, well, other than possibly Katie. Just because Katie says something doesn't make it so.

My problem with Katie is the exact same as I have with anyone who takes their own personal philosophies, speculations and conjectures and attempts to convince others that they are somehow "proven fact" using nothing more than the "smoke and mirrors" of known logical fallacies, such as; engaging in circular arguments, denying the antecedent, confirming the consequent, or entertaining paradoxes, ie., "doublethink". I simply do not trust anyone who has to resort to utilizing these types of tactics, and I can go through her book and point these out in almost every argument she makes.

Thanks for finding and sharing this fascinating thread Corboy. Disengaged is one sharp cookie.

How ironic that anyone trying to recover from being hurt by a psychopath or narcissist would turn to BK as a route to healing.

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question lady
How ironic that anyone trying to recover from being hurt by a psychopath or narcissist would turn to BK as a route to healing.

There has been some recent discussion how certain Guru systems, carve some type of projection of themselves into the psyche of their followers, they get their followers to fuse with their Guru identity, using all sorts of techniques.

So then if a person does not deal with that damage, they will jump right from one bad Guru, to the next bad Guru.
But they might make the mistake that it was just a bad Guru wearing robes and a bad teaching.
So they jump to a smiling Love-Bomb Guru wearing a pantsuit, using different language.

But its the exact same structure.

As a matter of fact, from reading Carol Skolnicks self-published accounts of her "conversion" to Byron Katie, it does sound like she had a pre-existing schema in her own psyche for a female Guru. She rejected the Guru from Siddha Yoga, and then guess what, she "falls in love" with Byron Katie, as she describes in in great detail in various writings she promotes on the internet. (that shows she is also using her own experiences as a template to draw others in).

So its not surprising that people repeat the same Guru patterns.
Its like how those in abusive relationships can often repeat that pattern, or maybe dad was an alcoholic, and they marry an alcoholic, etc. Its what they are used to.
So in that context, someone jumping from a toxic female Guru like in Siddha Yoga, would turn to another one, just with different wrapping paper, and language patterns.

But the exact same level of exploitation and manipulation. Everyone has blindspots.

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The Anticult
As a matter of fact, from reading Carol Skolnicks self-published accounts of her "conversion" to Byron Katie, it does sound like she had a pre-existing schema in her own psyche for a female Guru. She rejected the Guru from Siddha Yoga, and then guess what, she "falls in love" with Byron Katie, as she describes in in great detail in various writings she promotes on the internet. (that shows she is also using her own experiences as a template to draw others in).

Speaking of Carol Skolnick... I was just thinking about her since I have been following her blog...

I find any number of Carol's blog entries quite disturbing, such as this one:

[[url=http://soulsurgery.blogspot.com/2008/05/difficult-facilitator.html]Focus on Facilitation: Facilitating With A Motive (a.k.a. When Facilitators Attack!)[/url]]

"When Facilitators Attack"? That sounds ominous. Carol appears to be joking, but her choice of words says a lot to me.

Consciously or unconsciously, Carol wants to EXCUSE facilitators who might mess up in some way while facilitating "the work". She says:

"You'd think that trained facilitators would always do The Work straight-up, just four questions and a turnaround, no maneuvering and manipulating the client, no cross-talk, no inventive or invasive questions...just as you'd think that doctors would never lose a patient, mothers would always do the right thing by their kids, and politicians would always keep their campaign promises.

"As we know, this is hopeless. Human beings doing their best can still be clueless sometimes."

This is scary stuff! To say "this is hopeless." No, things are NOT hopeless.

Carol is parroting Byron Katie, who uses that "hopeless" bit a lot. It's an attempt to wipe away all accountability and responsibility.

One does NOT need to lose all hope and then lean on BK and/or one of her facilitators.

It's wonderful that there ARE people in this world who believe in accountability and appropriate therapeutic behavior. I'm happy to have found this out after spending many years seeking help from "alternative" practitioners.

Recently Carol Skolnick has blogged more disturbing stuff regarding facilitation:

[[url=http://soulsurgery.blogspot.com/2008/07/be-your-own-spin-doctor.html]Be Your Own "Spin" Doctor[/url]]

According to Carol, a facilitator may "spin" a session. Of this, she says:

"Believe it or not, this happens; I've even experienced facilitators spinning me several times before getting back to the original statement, at which point I'm dizzy!"

So Carol has gotten "dizzy" from facilitated sessions?

"Dizzy" is another word for disoriented. What sane person wants to get disoriented in a session? People are turning to the work to find inner peace.

Carol actually tries to make light of it by ending her statement with an exclamation point. Like it's supposed to funny.

But causing a client to be "dizzy" or disoriented ain't funny. It's the antithesis of a therapeutic approach.

Carol's blog is a way for her to advertise her services. However, she also uses her blog to talk about problems that come up when facilitating. This shows that she has very poor boundaries. (But then so does Byron Katie.) An ethical, effective therapist draws APPROPRIATE BOUNDARIES with their client. The material that can come up in a therapeutic setting can be extremely sensitive, volatile even. A good therapist provides a container for the difficult stuff to come up SAFELY.

Sure, there can be problems even with a mainstream practitioner. But there are all sorts of checks in place to help prevent any problems. Byron Katie and her facilitators blithely ignore these checks.

As I said above, I was one of these people who had a strong distrust of mainstream approaches. I picked it up from one of my parents when I was a teenager and it stuck for quite some time. I finally opened up to non-alternative help and am incredibly glad for it. My current therapist is an absolute gem.

I say stay the heck away from the likes of Carol Skolnick, Steven Sashen, Byron Katie, Eckhart Tolle...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2008 10:20PM by helpme2times.

Gurumayi, leader of SYDA yoga, has not been seen in public for the past 5 years..about 2003.

This vanishing act is all the more grave because, in SYDA people were at that time trained to be dependent on that guru,not trained to be adult in relation to her. ccordign to a 1996 correspondance on AOL, a former devotee (who also had done EST), mentioned a particular meditation exercise practiced toward the end of the SYDA month long intensive, as practiced at that time.

Other people longed to become members of GM's inner circle, slaved away at the comparatively menial jobs, hoping they'd rise to entourage status,and were disappointed. In those days, proximity to the guru ('darshan' 'guru's grace') was everything.

One former member reveals that those who took a month long SDYA intensive were actually at one point trained to internalize Gurumayi (an abusive woman for whom appearances and beautiful clothes were everything)--internalize this guru within thier own bodies.

In the words of psychotherapy, to make Gurumayi their maternal introject.

“As the Course dragged on and the Rule of Silence was imposed, I began to fear I could really slip off the deep end, especially after the "secret" install-the-Guru-in-your-bodymeditation which did NOT feel like a loving thing to do to myself, despite everyone's doe-eyed testimonials to the contrary…”The full account from this devotee will be quoted at length below to give the full context.

It is my educated layman's hunch that if a guru were to encourage a significant number of her devotees to internalize her within their bodies, and then suddenly disappear on them, with no explanation, such abandonment would be especially drastic and could well have left them reeling.

Here, at length is the account given by the person quoted above:

[www.ex-cult.org]

The secret—install the guru in your body meditation

Subj: Another ex delurks (cont'd)
Date: 96-04-27 23:48:30 EDT
From: LifeAftrSY

Finally, after agonizing indecision, I quit graduate school and EST and moved into one of GM's ashrams. I had a distinct thought that checking into this institution voluntarily was far better than being committed to one
involuntarily, a direction I feared I was heading. Even my parents were
mildly supportive (though clearly, if cluelessly, concerned). And my state
did improve somewhat.

Unfortunately, I started to see the ashram as my home instead of a temporary way-station. I went on staff in the kitchen and limited my social life almost entirely to devotees. I devoured the Correspondence Course. I took as many courses as possible, and did more than enough seva to win the trust of the management. I took, assisted, and occasionally taught Hatha Yoga. I eventually did virtually every seva in the ashram but manage the place.

I think a lot of devotees may have seen me as a model devotee, with the one
annoying tendency of putting down my mind frequently. It took my almost ten
years to discover that this is what I HAD to do to keep myself on the "Siddha
Path".

I spent as much time with Gurumayi as possible, even going to India twice to
be around her in the "heartland" of SY. I had some very deep and tranquil
meditations at times. I hoped for the day she might pick me for something
special, bring me into the inner circle somehow, but it never happened. To
the end, I remained a gopher, and my main real satisfaction is that I got
pretty good at it.

The end of my relationship with SY was also precipitated by a nervous
breakdown. I decided to save money to take the first Month-Long Course in
Ganeshpuri, (India) and my boss at work agreed to allow me to work 12-hour days
towards that end.

A couple months before that summer, I got involved in an
affair with another devotee, and a monkey-wrench was thrown into my plans of sailing into the Month-Long Course and becoming utterly and finally purified
of this nagging sense of wrongness I could never get rid of.

The short-lived affair was unexpectedly stormy, and it continued into the Course because she was also attending it. To make matters worse, we were discussing marriage in India before the course started. I started having the wierd dissociated feeling I had when I was leaving graduate school, like I was living in a bubble of denial that I couldn't break out of.

As the Course dragged on and the Rule of Silence was imposed, I began to fear I could really slip off the deep end, especially after the "secret" install-the-Guru-in-your-bodymeditation which did NOT feel like a loving thing to do to myself, despite everyone's doe-eyed testimonials to the contrary.

I wrote Gurumayi about what was happening with me and she had her secretary tell me to meet Swami Umeshananda (the former shrink) when I got back to the States, and to do a lot of sports there too. I told everyone I was surprised and relieved at her compassion - I expected her to assign me to garden seva or something...'

Some have tried to trivialize discussions of the human and financial damage borne by those who trustfully became involved with Muktananda and, later, Gurumayi. One trivializer said that SY was a fringe movement.

By contrast, this statement appears on the homepage for an ex-SYDA discussion group on yahoo says this:

[groups.yahoo.com]

(home)

Welcome to eXSY. This forum is for people who have been (past tense) in Siddha Yoga or a similar group, people who are seriously thinking of leaving Siddha Yoga or having doubts about becoming involved, or those who may have people they know still in Siddha Yoga, or a similar organization. Posting may be on the subject matter of Siddha Yoga, Leaving Siddha Yoga, or whatever. Please note, spam is 'not' welcome here.

****There are thousands of people who have been, or still are in Siddha Yoga, or know of someone in Siddha Yoga. For this reason, it is logical for some to conclude, that there will be a 'diverse' range of thoughts, perspectives and opinions on this subject matter.******

And..SYDA is still asking folks for money, despite the guru having vanished five years ago, in effect abandoning and orphaning her devotees.

My rule of thumb in identifying a cult or a rotten relationship is that the other person demands adult loyalty from you, but is unable to reciprocate that same degree of adult loyalty when you need it—instead you’re likely to be yelled at or suddenly discarded, just as a bored child throws a toy aside and forgets it.


It is worth noting that Gurumayi, who has been leader of SYDA Yoga, has disappeared and not been seen in public for 5 years. This is no ordinary disappearance, for in the culture of SY, proximity to the guru was what mattered. Since GM’s disappearance, the organization has tried to emphasize the ‘inner guru’…but is still asking for money, anyway. More on that below.

GM’s disappearance five years ago would have had especially heavy implications for those devotees who practiced a particular form of meditation during the month long SYDA ‘intensive’—visualizing the guru—that is, Gurumayi herself—within one’s own body. For a guru to encourage followers to do that kind of internalization of her---and then vanish on them is a grave form of abandonment. It would leave them disoriented and orphaned. It should be noted that professional psychotherapists are well aware of how carefully a therapist must tread when assisting a client to transition from therapy—this process is called termination and it is professional malfeasance to dump a patient with no explanation after one has established a trustful working alliance—and one in which the therapist never presumes to be a mediator/mediatrix for God.

[groups.yahoo.com]

(posted on July 7th 2008)

Re: Does anyone know where or what has happened to Gurumayi?


The last time GM appeared in public, live, was in 2003. Many on this
list--people who have left SY--believe she has effectively retired and the
organisation has tried to keep things going without her in order to keep the
money coffers full. You won't find a lot of people interested in speculating
about what she is doing now or other SY gossip. Active posters are more
interested in their own healing process from participating--some were very
active for many years.

Buyer beware! Get out now, you won't be sorry :-).

(I hope you know Muk was a sexual predator. Do some reading at
leavingsiddhayoga.net or in this list's archives.)


Allie


--- In eXSY@yahoogroups.com, "vreggi" wrote:
>
> I have been attending the local SY ashram for a year or so now, having
> met Baba and received shaktipat from him in the 70's
>
> I'm very puzzled because Gurumayi never appears in any of the video
> material these days - sometimes we hear her voice. Even the
> intensives are run by devotees rather than her. I asked one of the
> old devotees where she was and he said she was based in NY state
> ashram but "we never really know where she is these days". The New
> Years message is also just a rehash of previous messages. No new
> material.
>
> Its kind of like she has gone into retirement but the ashram is still
> keeping up the appearances that she is still around.
>
> I wondered whether anyone knows if she still appears at satsangs every
> week or not.
>
> Maybe someone knows why she is taking a step back from the limelight
> these days.
>
> I come from the old school what darshan meant seeing the guru.
>
> It seems like a bit of a delicate subject and people at the ashram
> don't want to talk about it. I guess if you are a devotee of Gurumayi
> it doesn't matter what has happened to her but I can help being curious.
>
>
>
> Love to hear from anyone who knows about the strange disappearance of
> Gurumayi.




The secret—install the guru in your body meditation

Subj: Another ex delurks (cont'd)
Date: 96-04-27 23:48:30 EDT
From: LifeAftrSY

Finally, after agonizing indecision, I quit graduate school and EST and moved
into one of GM's ashrams. I had a distinct thought that checking into this
institution voluntarily was far better than being committed to one
involuntarily, a direction I feared I was heading. Even my parents were
mildly supportive (though clearly, if cluelessly, concerned). And my state
did improve somewhat.

Unfortunately, I started to see the ashram as my home instead of a temporary way-station. I went on staff in the kitchen and limited my social life almost entirely to devotees. I devoured the Correspondence Course. I took as many courses as possible, and did more than enough seva to win the trust of the management. I took, assisted, and occasionally taught Hatha Yoga. I eventually did virtually every seva in the ashram but manage the place.

I think a lot of devotees may have seen me as a model devotee, with the one
annoying tendency of putting down my mind frequently. It took my almost ten
years to discover that this is what I HAD to do to keep myself on the "Siddha
Path".

I spent as much time with Gurumayi as possible, even going to India twice to
be around her in the "heartland" of SY. I had some very deep and tranquil
meditations at times. I hoped for the day she might pick me for something
special, bring me into the inner circle somehow, but it never happened. To
the end, I remained a gopher, and my main real satisfaction is that I got
pretty good at it.

The end of my relationship with SY was also precipitated by a nervous
breakdown. I decided to save money to take the first Month-Long Course in
Ganeshpuri, and my boss at work agreed to allow me to work 12-hour days
towards that end. A couple months before that summer, I got involved in an
affair with another devotee, and a monkey-wrench was thrown into my plans of sailing into the Month-Long Course and becoming utterly and finally purified
of this nagging sense of wrongness I could never get rid of.

The short-lived affair was unexpectedly stormy, and it continued into the Course because she was also attending it. To make matters worse, we were discussing marriage in India before the course started. I started having the wierd dissociated feeling I had when I was leaving graduate school, like I was living in a bubble of denial that I couldn't break out of.

****As the Course dragged on and the Rule of Silence was imposed, I began to fear I could really slip off the deep end, especially after the "secret" install-the-Guru-in-your-bodymeditation which did NOT feel like a loving thing to do to myself, despite everyone's doe-eyed testimonials to the contrary.

I wrote Gurumayi about what was happening with me and she had her secretary tell me to meet Swami Umeshananda (the former shrink) when I got back to the States, and to do a lot of sports there too. I told everyone I was surprised and relieved at her compassion - I expected her to assign me to garden seva or something...'

It is worth pondering that Gurumayi has not been seen in public for 5 years. For…they are still
asking for money.

I quoted this at some length—Gurumayi’s mysterious disappearance. Because
1) They are still asking for money—and the request mentions GM has not shown her face for five years.
[www.siddhayoga.org]

Dear Siddha Yogi,
On this auspicious holiday of Gurupurnima (July 17th), with great enthusiasm,
I invite you to join me in celebrating the Guru's grace by making a special offering of dakshina. During Gurupurnima, I reflect on the transformation that the Siddha Yoga teachings, the Siddha Yoga path, and the grace of the Siddha Yoga Guru have brought in my life; for all this I experience profound gratitude.
Happy Gurupurnima.

With love,
Swami Ishwarananda
Siddha Yoga Meditation Teacher
SYDA Foundation

In the Psychotherapy and Clergy Abuse section, I posted (7-19-08)a long
excerpt from one of the AOL threads.

[forum.culteducation.com]

It gives, in detail, descriptions of how people in SY had their therapy derailed by working with SY therapists. One person got into SY through her therapist who was already a devotee and describes how thier therapeutic alliance was undermined and ended up serving the needs of the therapist.

In this section, one correspondant spoke in 1996, mind you, of 'busloads of therapists' involved.

"One of the most astonishing parts of the conference is a section entitled:
"How Can We Share Siddha Yoga With Clients" led by a panel of syda
therapists.

There is only one answer which is in accordance with the ethical
codes of the psychotherapy (psychiatry, psychology, social work)
profession(s): that is NOT to share SYDA at all. Nothing could be more
unprofessional and more damaging to a pscychotherapy client than for their therapist to recruit them into a religion.

And yet again and again, SYDA devotees who are therapists bring busloads of their clients to the ashram to meet GM. There are innumerable implications, all of them damaging to the client, to doing something so patently unprofessional as that. "

But there is a quote from one correspondant that could just as well apply to many other psychospiritual entrepreneurs out there today:

Person 1wrote :

>"In order to win and keep approval, I began to hide things about myself from my therapist and others in SY that were, to say the ast, "inconsistent" with the teachings, including my doubts about SY. After all, aren't most issues that arise in therapy mere products of negative thinking or wrong understanding? Psychological well-being took a back seat to "enlightenment"as the goal of therapy. "<

Person 2 : "

"If a therapist encourages clients to think that the issues that arise in
therapy are mere products of negative thinking or wrong understanding, he is not a therapist, he is a moralizer, a teacher, and a person who has not dared to face himself in a real or full way.

"He might as well just be saying, "oh that's hogwash, get over it." Or "don't think about that today - think about that tomorrow - after you've given more dakshina and done more slayva. After all, tomorrow is another day."

IMO BK's material is another version of 'oh that's hogwash, get over it.'

And the AOL thread talks about the brownie points earned in SY by therapists who recruited counselees in to become devotees.

Sounds familiar, eh? And on that same thread, someone made a comment that reflects the plight that may be faced by those who went to that intensive, internalized Gurumayi, per instructions, only to have her vanish in 2003--or who found themselves bitterly disappointed that she did not reciprocate their years as sevites and let them into her inner circle.

(C speculates:Persons in these predicaments might well want to go work for another human potential outfit, just the way someone who hits the glass ceiling at IBM might decide 'fuck this shit, I am going to go to another company where my talent is appreciated, share some trade secrets--or go into business for myself, so I can have others admire ME for a change.'

Except that...if you are an oh so spiritual person, you cant let yourself say, 'fuck this shit.')

Also on the AOL discussion a correspondant wrote:

"Exit counseling"? Fagetabotit. If you leave the cult you share with your
therapist-father, you lose him *and* your guru-mother, guru-grandfather,
guru-great-grandfather, and all your guru-sisters, -brothers, -cousins, and
-aunts and -uncles, Death might seem preferable, and apparently might be at least threatened if your leaving is enough of an embarrassment, if you consider the experience of Michael Dinga as described to Lis Harris.(per the New Yorker article, O Guru, Guru C)


Go read the whole thing if you want the full impact. This was not a fringe organization, ....it reportedly suborned psychotherapists.

We can only hope they no longer do this and that the therapists concerned have worked this out in their personal analyses....one hopes.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2008 11:33PM by corboy.