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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) uses the Psychology of Influence
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: July 11, 2008 12:21AM

Yes, Dr. David Burns has put together some excellent books, take from very carefully studied and researched methods of Cognitive Behavior Therapy, CBT. His material is all grounded in reality and science, yet he has an accessible style, and keeps things optimistic, while staying realistic.
There are literally decades of research studies behind that material, all published in peer-reviewed journals.

Byron Katie's various comments on psychology are extremely manipulative, and frankly disgusting. Byron Katie has no right to make any comments about "psychology" as she has chosen to remain outside of the system, so she cannot be held accountable for anything she does to people.
Wasn't she investigated in the past for doing psychotherapy without a license? And her response was something like...it was just words...so she is very savvy.

The only thing Byron Katie has to do with psychology, is the Psychology of Influence, in which she is well studied.
I agree she puts on a front to sound sorta like a pop-psych person to draw the general public, and then sweeps that away as soon as she can, so she can get into the deeper, and weirder stuff about "there is no reality" and solipsism, etc.
(another weird thing is that BK could trick many if not most psychologists and shrinks, as they are usually fairly trusting people, doctors of all types are the #1 target for professional salespeople, as they can sometimes be a bit naive about the scamps of this world. One can hope BK does not trick too many of them.)

Cognitive Therapy seems to be the ideal antidote to Byron Katie, as its about attuning one's perceptions/thoughts/cognitions as accurately and constructively as possible to reality. (in a way its the opposite to Katie, who is usually installing delusions in people, and calling it truth, while claiming there is no truth..etc...screwing with your mind, in other words.).

Cognitive Therapy has axioms in it, but they are open and not hidden. So it can get into Cognitive Science if one is interested in that, or the philosophy behind it. Its all there and its an open system, there is nothing hidden in it, as even its axioms are available, but one has to read some technical books to get at that, and that is not needed to benefit from the therapy side of it.

This has some good info.
Dr. Judith Beck is Dr. Aaron Beck's daughter, is a registered psychologist, and has some excellent books, usually written for professional therapists.

Questions and Answers about Cognitive Therapy
By Judith S. Beck, Ph.D., Director of the Beck Institute
(press link: About Cognitive Therapy)
[www.beckinstitute.org]



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helpme2times
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SusanD
I am reading a David Burns books that anticult recommended which is giving me some grounding after the months I was in BK's "unreal reality". *coughs*
Hey, thanks for reminding me about the Burns book, I want to read that too. I've just put it on reserve at my library.

Psychology really can be a wonderful thing. How could I have missed that for so long? BK actually includes some good aspects of psychology in her stuff, which contributes to people getting hooked, but then she tries to deny psychology's helpfulness elsewhere (so you will only turn to her?), such as in this groaner of a quote from "Losing the Moon":

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It's fear, ach! Labeling it fear without investigation is how it has all these lives. And that's where psychology is born, in trying to find out what this fear is. Well, it's nothing. Let's just investigate it in the beginning. Go back to the beginning. And then there's no need for psychology.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2008 12:27AM by The Anticult.

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: solea13 ()
Date: July 11, 2008 01:16AM

To me, looking back, a lot of my cult expeirience was a lesson in insane thinking. Surrendering one's individual power to another human being is sheer madness.

In this modern age there are people who accept to live live a life of slavish devotion to an individual or group ... as though they are feudal serfs instead of dignified, thinking, autonomous human beings.

One of the ways that my group did it was to claim that all current human systems were in a condition of total corruption and decay ... from the educational system which we were raised in, to the medical and scientific fields, capitalism and government.

Thus was created the notion of 'superiority' of the group, it's leader, ideals and individual members.

Thus many of us (especially in the early years) did not have health insurance, would never take medicine, not so much as a tylenol for a headache because as group members we understood the spiritual aspect of illness that doctors did not.

No matter how much we were hurting inside We would never dream of consulting a psychologist because we knew more than the psychologists about spirituality and therefore were 'superior' to them ... although all the while thinking we were really humble!!!

In turning one's back on all 'outside systems' that might have offered assistance to individual members, there was a total loss of perspective, of feedback. Being anxious or depressed, even getting sick was a result of one's own spiritual failings, rather than any problem in the way the group was run. So you ended up chasing your own tail, looking for the answers from the teachings, looking for the answers within yourself, trying to commit yourself to more devotion and more service to cure the problem.

It's truly horrible, thinking about it. All mechanics of cults are the same. Katie Byron is doing the exact same thing to those who follow her. Once you get sucked in it can take years to get out because you can't look up, can't get your head out of the water to take a breath.

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) is Antiscience
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: July 11, 2008 02:29AM

One thing Solea's post above triggered in me is something that is so easy to forget.

When anyone is caught in one of these "systems", they can't see it. For example, basically no one in a cultish system ever seems to know they are in that system, often they think they know the "truth", or that "there is no truth" etc.
One is pretty certain very few regular folks who are seriously into Byron Katie think they are in a cultish system...but those at the TOP of the Byron Katie who do it for big money know EXACTLY what is going on. That is certain.

Or some, like Scientology, joke about it being a cult.
And some admit its a cult, but its a good cult.

So it really is fascinating how that works.

One thing that is interesting is almost all culty groups bash psychiatrists and psychologists, like they are evil antichrists, etc.
For those who happen to know lots of those folks, they know that almost all of them are just regular people, and many of them are very smart and well trained, and of course some are not, just like anthing else. Some of them are drunks or incompetent, and we have to use our skills to find that out.

For example, shrinks know the drug companies are pushing their products on them and resist it, on the other hand they know they can help people. (big subject, we all know, Dr. David Burns has interesting views on this in his most recent book When Panic Attacks).

What these groups do is take something like that, and WARP it into some horror, like all shrinks are murdering criminal drug-pushers, etc. Its a horror scare tactic.
L Ron Hubbard loved shrinks and mental health people, UNTIL they said his book Dianetics was not science, and was false and dishonest. Then they all became evil to him.

So they do pathologize science, medicine, psychology, and everything else that contradicts their products.
I think it is like was said above, to draw people ONLY to them.

None of the above systems is perfect, but at least proper science has built in mechanisms of self-correction and objective testing. They are open systems.

That is the only reason Cognitive Therapy works.
No one dreamed it up by magic.They had some ideas, and they tested them in proper tests at many universities.
They tested hundreds of methods, and what worked best, is what they are now using, and its always getting better. The Beck site has links to meta-analyses of studies.
[www.beckinstitute.org]
So in 10 years, it should be even better and more refined.
That is what proper testing is about.

That is why Byron Katie has refused to scientifically test her system, while making what appear to be false medical sounding claims. The Work does NOT Eliminate Depression.
How can they get away with that? That cannot be legal?

But they work in the New Age field, and it seems no one pays much attention. But who knows, maybe the FTC is looking into it, they occassionaly do act.
Like that TV guy claiming coral calcium worked on cancer, they went after him. (then he just started selling his rip-off Miracle Cure book on TV...which gives no cures but tries to sell a website subscription...these guys never quit, like Werner Erhard).

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) YouTube video brainwashing
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: July 11, 2008 02:42AM

ALSO:

This is where Stephen Mitchell seems to come in.
Before him, Katie's books like Losing The Moon, could get her into trouble, for all the serious claims she was making. This is why they seem to have shredded all those books in their basement.

But the way Stephen Mitchell writes and edits those books now, they are done with a FINE-TOOTH COMB. They very carefully massage any claims in the books, and deliberately keep it in the New Agey self-help area which is totally unregulated, while giving a veneer of pop-psych, and pop-spirituality.
Its very very carefully done, dozens if not hundreds of revisions.

They have hidden even the eastern nonduality ideas, and just modified the language, and then lure people in slower.
There is some new book coming out, and a 2 second glance at it, seems like it is even MORE mainstream.

Its like those TM books that say..."Have More Energy and Less Stress".
Its just a trick, to use "stress" to get you to worship the damn Maharishi.
So the recent Byron Katie books are amazingly carefully written, and revised, and designed.
They seem like a superfical self-helpy new-agey thing, but they have all these other levels, done in such a way, they seem to be able to get away with it, without many people noticing.

But you have to look at it from their perspective.
Its the same as how producing, writing, directing, and making a movie...is different than watching a movie!
Byron Katie at this point is a multimedia roadshow performance, highly polished and scripted.
People who see her over and over will begin to see that, but then rationalize it.
the books are really just the FISH-HOOK, but of course, they make money too on their own.

ALSO, the Byron Katie YouTube videos are a literal TV channel at this point! You can be certain, that BKI her company, has a video editing area in the building, and they have some interns in there cutting up videos from the archives. Then Mitchell and BK come in, and suggest edits, add-ons, etc.
Then they upload them, monitor them, do new ones, deal with contracts, etc.
They are really running their own online TV channel at this point around Byron Katie.
And BK tells whoppers where she says random people are uploading them...lies lies lies.
They hired the cameramen to shoot it in the LGAT, which costs a lot of money, they had all those people sign away their rights, they edited them, etc.

Then they spend weeks selecting the right video moments, and linking them together.
Its a new type of video online persuasion, even YouTube video brainwashing.
Stephen Mitchell and the gang there would be so proud they are so cutting edge. (but its been done before in movies).

Maybe BK will come out with a CD of her singing songs...maybe she should sing...Springtime for Hitler from The Producers, as Byron Katie has said in Losing The Moon that Hitler was doing the work of her idea "God".

Byron Katie QUOTE from her book "Losing The Moon": "God is the Nazi too" (p55)


Why doesn't some reporter from Germany read that book, LOSING THE MOON, and then ask her about it? You can't say nonsense like that in Germany where it actually happened.
No wonder that book Losing The Moon was suppressed. Maybe a reporter from Germany will read the book Losing The Moon, which can be found online from a Google search.

Byron Katie statements about Nazi's, Hitler, and the Jewish Holocaust.
(Byron Katie School, Germany 2008, QUOTE: "God is the Nazi too")
[forum.culteducation.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2008 03:06AM by The Anticult.

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: Shaking My Head ()
Date: July 11, 2008 03:04AM

I didn't know anything of Byron Katie's work till someone recommended her book. The only thing I felt instinctually when I was reading it was "This is mind fu*king." And, some of the other stuff I read here about the baby in the fire and "all is good" and war is okay and everything is wonderful and it's all just a projection, and when you're dying you're laughing and when you have your legs blown off, it's still okay--I take issues with this crazy thinking. Not that I think all new age is BS, just most of it. For me anyways. In fact, alot ofl new age thinking is just turning around everything and everything is good. If you're sick, it's your fault (basically sifted down into this), If you get swindled of money, it's your fault, if your kids die in a hurricane, it's your "responsibility." I think this type of thinking is the most non-compassionate distortion of reality ever.
I met, a few years ago, a woman who was associated with a big time guru (of the 60's). She started lecturing me how the war was perfectly fine and okay and 1/2 her family is dems and 1/2 is republicans and how they don't talk politics. I wasn't talking politics but she had to interject that--how different politics are just different. I was just saying to her War is bad, for God's sake. Nothing more, nothing less. Give me a new age speel on it. Then she kissed me on the cheek (of course she had a bad head cold--I think she was subconsciosly trying to give me her "germ'). Later, I told my husband, I wish I had thought fast enough to tell her I don't want her New Age kiss of germs.
Everything appears like a kiss, but down deep, it's a germ that's being given.

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: helpme2times ()
Date: July 11, 2008 09:21PM

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Shaking My Head
Later, I told my husband, I wish I had thought fast enough to tell her I don't want her New Age kiss of germs.
LOL!

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: solea13 ()
Date: July 11, 2008 10:03PM

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Shaking My Head
Everything appears like a kiss, but down deep, it's a germ that's being given.

Wow. That's pretty deep! There is some discussion on 'memes' and 'thought-viruses' in this thread; ideas that appear 'spiritual' and helpful on the surface but that end up 'corrupting' a person's mind in a similar way that a computer virus corrupts a hard-drive.

'Shaking my Head' gave us a perfect example of the lack of compassion that can flourish within the New Age culture. For that lady not even to think about the fact that she might spread her cold germs says a lot to me. Then if you did contract a cold it would be because of your 'rigid thinking' and inability to see that 'war is fine' ... not the fact she gace you a sloppy, germy kiss!

I don't mean to bash all New-Agers or the entire 'movement'. It's just that there is that element there. About a year ago, one of the members of my group left to follow another Master. Later he felt that he was on the wrong path and he recently comitted suicide.

Well of course, there was very little compassion for that man. Of course, there is an unspoken assumption that in a way it was his own fault because that is what happens to people who leave the teaching. Bad things. Terrible things. Illness, insanity and death. A pity, but there you go. One of the casualties of the spiritual war. Some people even seemed to think that he had to do it ... he had lost his way, better get a new body and start fresh. My God!

No mention of course of the dangers of following and turning all your power over to a Guru. No mention of the indoctrinated phobias that could have caused this man a great deal of suffering. No mention of the cognitive distortions that may have led him to such a dreadful place in his life. No questioning of a system that had led him to such a terrible place in his life.

What a nightmare. "Thought viruses' can be as dangerous as physical viruses. There is no doubt in my mind about that.

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: July 12, 2008 01:46AM

Dear TAC:

FYI your mail may be full.

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Byron Katie (the Work) A Note from Helsinki, (more word tricks)
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: July 18, 2008 03:26AM

What a coincidence, and clever word trickery on the Byron Katie blog.

They posted some text from an alleged person from Helsinki, Finland, (to make it appear like its from a objective person) where again, they falsely try to link The Work of Byron Katie with Cognitive Therapy. They do this to try to gain some credibility by false association.

They post text that is nothing more than an alleged ANECDOTE from someone who is selling his own clinics and products possible LGAT seminars to people in pain.
THEY THEN REFER PEOPLE TO THE BYRON KATIE WEBSITE for more information on their seminars. A blatant salespitch and business arrangement.

"The Work" by Byron Katie is not a form of actual Cognitive Therapy, notice how they do not show any links or information about ANY actual studies of The Work?
What they do is just mantion the names of the founders of Cognitive Therapy to try to gain some credibility by false association, and then some anecdotes.

What connection does David Wise have to Byron Katie? Is he promoting his own clinic and seminars?
How long has David Wise been involved with The Work of Byron Katie?
Where are the scientific studies conducted by David Wise to show his evidence that the Byron Katie method works? (there are none, they just give an "opinion" which is just a salespitch for their own pain products).

Where is the scientific study that shows that Byron Katie's The Work has ANY effect on pain? There are no studies. The best they can get is some guy who is making money it appears from referrals from The Tork giving a personal anecdote and testimonial, which is utterly worthless. [www.skepdic.com]

But it is fascinating to watch the tricky and very careful way they use WORDS on people.
Very clever, and very tricky.

And since Byron Katie is claiming now on her own blog that The Work is Cognitive THERAPY, then does that not mean they are doing THERAPY without a license?
If its therapy, then why are there no studies, and no licenses at all?

Notice how they try to have it all ways at once? Its all word games at this point, and messing with people's minds, Bait & Switch.

The Work is not any type of tested "cognitive therapy" and the people making that statement know that, so they know what they are saying is not true. They are carefully just twisting the words to make sales referrals to their own pain clinics.
It would be interesting to see what is actually said in that book.

Byron Katie and Stephen Mitchell certainly know every trick in the book.
Get 3rd parties from Europle to claim other 3rd parties are giving a personal anecdote about The Work.
Do people really fall for those sorts of word tricks?

So according to the Byron Katie blog, then people who do The Work, are doing psychotherapy without a license?





(QUOTE from Byron Katie blog below)
__________________
A Note from Helsinki
Dear Byron Katie,

This might be old news for you, but I found that two groundbreaking Stanford University pain syndrome experts consider Byron Katie's approach the best form of Cognitive Therapy.

In the new Revised 5th Edition of A Headache in the Pelvis (pp.326-330), that came out in May 2008, Stanford psychologist David Wise Ph.D. and neurourologist Rodney Anderson, M.D. refer to Albert Ellis' Rational-Emotive Therapy and Aaron Beck's Cognitive Therapy and then write (in their italics):

"The best form of Cognitive Therapy is, in our opinion, is offered in the work of Byron Katie who provides an approach to disarming catastrophic thinking by means of a process that one can do oneself. This is the approach that we recommend."

They then describe the procedure adding: "Our description of this process is rarely sufficient to become proficient at it. We discuss this method in our monthly 6-day clinics. Information specifically about this cognitive therapy work can be found at www.thework.org and the books of Byron Katie."

Wise and Anderson are practical "in the trenches" therapists who work daily with severe pelvic pain and other chronic syndromes . They recommended Byron Katie's method already in the 4th edition of the book (pp. 298-301).

I am happy to tell that my friend Ms. Essi Tolonen will be able to make true her long-held dream -- Essi will attend the 2008 School in Germany in two weeks. Many people here in Finland are already eagerly waiting for what she will tell us about the School.

All the best to you and your wonderful work

J. V.
Helsinki, Finland

Posted by Byron Katie on July 16, 2008 11:57 PM
_______________________________________



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2008 03:37AM by The Anticult.

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) A Note from Helsinki, (more word tricks)
Posted by: helpme2times ()
Date: July 18, 2008 09:38PM

Quote
The Anticult
"The Work" by Byron Katie is not a form of actual Cognitive Therapy, notice how they do not show any links or information about ANY actual studies of The Work?
What they do is just mantion the names of the founders of Cognitive Therapy to try to gain some credibility by false association, and then some anecdotes.
I saw that blog entry and it made my heart sink.

Sure, there was an initial "high" when I first did Byron Katie's work. But that high wore off pretty quickly and I kept trying to recreate it, to no avail.

Alternatively, I am loving Dr. David Burns' book, "Feeling Good", in addition to the work I am doing with a LICENSED THERAPIST! She is helping me recover my SELF-ESTEEM, not trying to DESTROY THE SELF ala Byron Katie. Big difference! I don't think you can destroy the self anyway - short of dying.

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