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12 years ago
buffman
I don't know anything about PSYCH-K besides that they do muscle-testing aka applied kinesiology. Sounds like yet another form of ideodynamic movement as they call it in hypnotherapy. Ideodynamic just means "automatic," as in unconscious or involuntary movement, and applies to movements that cannot be controlled consciously as well as to movements that don't seem to be consciou
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"
12 years ago
buffman
@Anticult, Maybe I'm living under a rock, but I haven't seen a lot of this activity going on in NLP besides Tony Robbins who does more of a standard LGAT format (with a lot of NLP techniques thrown in of course). Seems to me that most NLP trainers are poorly organized and don't really do a good job with sales amidst a handful of hardcore salespeople. Can you give some specifi
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"
12 years ago
buffman
Some of NLP is new, some is repackaged. NLP doesn't create supermen (hard work creates supermen! lol), and many of the claims to NLP have been greatly exaggerated. That said, sometimes "magic" does happen and a technique (speaking primarily of the self-help/therapeutic techniques) does work amazingly well...but never 100% of the time. Personally I find the distinctions of NLP ve
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"
12 years ago
buffman
Oh ok. I thought your post was in reference to me saying that SoM can be used for basically manipulative or therapeutic ends. I agree regarding those who sell incredibly expensive LGAT and NLP trainings. I can't comment on Stever Robbins as I don't know much of anything about him specifically and how he does business.
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"
12 years ago
buffman
Are you saying that I'm trying reframe NLP to manipulate newbies? I was just stating what I actually believe. QuoteThe AnticultIt also gets so tiresome, to hear the same little games being played by the NLPers, year after year, trying to reframe NLP using persuasion tech derived from NLP, and related practices. They just do that to try and manipulate newbies, who are the only ones who ar
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"
12 years ago
buffman
Fair enough. Personally I'm just trying to figure all this stuff out myself, having gotten introduced to NLP from Tony Robbins--whom I wouldn't recommend. But I have found many distinctions and classic techniques from NLP helpful. The story goes (and who knows if this happened this way) that the sleight-of-mouth patterns or "conversational reframing" were discovered by Robe
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"
12 years ago
buffman
I'm pretty cynical about NLP as well, but I do think there are useful models of therapeutic techniques in NLP as well. It's not all ruthless persuasion/sales/seduction. For instance the UK publisher of NLP books has a large section on psychotherapy and counselling:
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"
12 years ago
buffman
It's the American capitalist way. Take something free (e.g. potable water) and make it X-treme! Bonus points for stealing the culture of those you've oppressed as a nation. "X-treme Warrior Water!" Now in 128oz size for X-treme thirst! Only $9.99. What Ray did with his plastic death lodge is a particularly dangerous and ruthless example of this larger trend.
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"
12 years ago
buffman
Quotecorboy... That same story can be emancipatory if used by a someone genuinely interested in your well being but can turn into trance inducing poison if used by an ego driven leader who wants to get into your head and impregnate your inner life with his or her image and parasitize your inner garden with their crabcrass. A real guru or true helps you see what naturally grows in your inner g
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"
12 years ago
buffman
In hypnotherapy, analytical or hyper-intellectual clients are notoriously difficult to lead into trance--even when the client wants to change but changes only intellectually and not emotionally. The recommended technique is to elicit confusion, usually through some sort of wordplay. This can work well in a therapy context, but clearly is problematic in a manipulative context. Manipulative groups
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"
12 years ago
buffman
@Yakaru, Something I've observed is that each of us has different potential vulnerabilities to authoritarian figures and coercive groups. James Ray looks like a fool to me--he can't even spell correctly, let alone understand Buddhism, Christianity, or quantum physics. Yet I fell for Tony Robbins--similar to Ray in many ways--while others have always seen Robbins as a cheeseball sa
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"
12 years ago
buffman
NLP and persuasion courses are not the only places to learn about metaphor. Poetry and literature teachers have long known how to analyze metaphors, as have teachers of rhetoric and media studies. Contemporary biblical criticism and progressive Christian theology/hermeneutics can also teach one about how to read a text. Charles Faulkner's NLP audio programs on metaphor seem non-manipul
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"
12 years ago
buffman
James Arthur Ray's quotation from Emerson's "Self-Reliance" is an essay about independence and free-thinking: (Link via "RayShouldPay" on Twitter, an alias of the Salty Droid: ) This is of course an utter inversion of Emerson's message in self-reliance. Ray is effectively saying "think for yourself--as long as what you think is that I am the savior
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"
12 years ago
buffman
There is one light being shined down on the darkness in all of this--the spotlight that has been trained on the shadowy figure of James Arthur Ray. The light of the law and of critical analysis of these LGAT gurus is helping to illuminate the enormous corruption and darkness in the New Thought Get-Rich-Like-God schemes. Pink Floyd may be of more insight than Genesis here: "Shine O
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"
12 years ago
buffman
James Arthur Ray is out on bail and Tweeting, trying to reframe being in jail as part of a greater good. From : QuoteVery few understand that it's the dark that creates and gives birth to greater light. Read the book of Genesis again. about 2 hours ago via txt It's the experiences of the darkness that bring clarity to the light about 4 hours ago via txt Ray is
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"
12 years ago
buffman
From : QuoteVery few understand that it's the dark that creates and gives birth to greater light. Read the book of Genesis again. about 2 hours ago via txt It's the experiences of the darkness that bring clarity to the light about 4 hours ago via txt Ray is trying to reframe his homicide charges and time spent in jail as a good thing, and he himself as the bring o
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"
12 years ago
buffman
Why can't this judge see that the deaths of these three people (four if you count Colleen Conaway) had nothing whatsoever to do with a sweat lodge, but everything to do with psychological manipulation?
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"
12 years ago
buffman
Also, Tony Robbins specifically works with people who are suicidal in his Unleash the Power Within seminar. He asks the audience "who here is suicidal?" I saw 7 or 10 hands go up at my UPW, out of about 2000 people. He only worked with one woman, and got her to link suicidal ideation with faking an orgasm. Supposedly this was a metaphor for how anyone can change their state "in an
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"
12 years ago
buffman
QuoteThe AnticultThe WORST are the ones like Byron Katie and others, where they actively take people with untreated serious trauma in their past, and they trigger and magnify their PTSD, and the person completely falls apart, gets all their money stripped from them, and then is kicked to the curb, usually literally. As in, when they start to flip-out and have a mental breakdown, they literally ki
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"
12 years ago
buffman
Whether or not the rumor is true, childhood abuse of animals is a known precursor to adult psychopathy/sociopathy:
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"
12 years ago
buffman
This would be a good time to mention again that James Arthur Ray literally ripped off many of Tony Robbins' techniques as well as exact stories word for word and gesture for gesture, as in this video where Ray tells a story about "Wolfgang Puck's": Even the pictures of James Ray look like Tony Robbins, as you can see by comparing photos from this blog article by the Sal
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"
12 years ago
buffman
@Penelope, Conveniently ignoring their own teachings of personal responsibility is indeed a feature found in many of these bogus New Wage "teachers." It's also a symptom of something called malignant narcissism. Here's an excellent list of 20 traits of malignant narcissism I just found on Google (from ). How many of these traits can forum members spot in James Arthur Ray
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"
12 years ago
buffman
Regarding compassion, it's a tricky subject when dealing with professional persuaders and known sociopaths. I find the concept of "idiot compassion" from Chogyam Trungpa a useful distinction (note: Trungpa was a controversial character and involved in numerous sex scandals, but at least he was honest about them). From an interview with Pema Chodron: QuoteIdiot compassion
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"
12 years ago
buffman
Fascinating research, @helpme2times. An additional danger of A.B. Curtiss' advice is that someone reading such advice who is currently taking psychopharmaceutical medication for depression or bipolar illness might decide to abruptly cease taking their medication. Compliance with medication protocols is a very common problem for those with depression and bipolar. Cutting off medication all
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"
12 years ago
buffman
QuoteHope...how they twist small kernels of valid methods and teaching to get the most out of their customers financially, without any accountability and without disregard for the well being of other people. ... In the end, the instigator, like so many others that so many here are familiar with, instead of maybe taking a look at their own behavior, asks what we are so afraid of, why are we host
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"
12 years ago
buffman
QuotePenelopeDoesn't James Ray say "balance is bogus"? Yup--again and again and again.... Another reason why I-BS should be the proper acronym.
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"
12 years ago
buffman
The 2005 IBIS site said "The Institute of Balanced and Integrated Spirituality (also known as IBIS) is a non-profit spiritual organization incorporated in Nevada."
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"
12 years ago
buffman
You hit the nail on the head. These guys are so driven by greed they literally can't understand why someone would do something ALTRUISTIC like helping others to avoid their scams with no desire for compensation in any way whatsoever. QuoteThe Anticult... Schirmer and Vitale cannot comprehend why everyday people would expose scams on their own time, simply because they believe its the dec
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"
12 years ago
buffman
Notice that known investment scammer David Schirmer is trying to reframe intelligent and courageous criticism as murder, meanwhile James Arthur Ray is IN JAIL PENDING A MURDER TRIAL. Who's the murderer? And with an appeal to a literal interpretation of the bible? Are you serious? "Some of the filth and utter trash said about James Ray on the internet by people who don’t know him, don
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"
12 years ago
buffman
I trust that the Universe will give Mr. Ray what's coming to him. QuotePenelopeI think the police in Arizona probably want to be thorough so they can make a strong case, but I think the San Diego PD need to re-examine Colleen Conaway's case. It was ruled as a suicide, I'm not sure how they can prove otherwise, but the behavior of JR and his staff after Colleen's death is v
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"
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