I'm not being evasive. I said that I was a mental health professional and that "no" I have not submitted a peer reviewed research paper on Tolle. However (for whatever it is worth) I've published many peer reviewed papers in scientific journals in the field of traumatic brain injury and in particular behavioral medicine.

Again ... you and others in this forum are making very pointed criticisms and claims about Tolle's teachings and specifically about the inherent psychological danger of his methods. The burden is on the accuser. My question (and don't be evasive) is what proof do you have of this danger? How many cases are documented? Has anyone taken legal action against him regarding his teachings and techniques? Until you can provide scientifically valid evidence that his teachings are harmful and/or provide case study examples then the accusations are baseless and invalid.

csp:

"Mental health professional"?

Please be very specific.

You are a clinical psychologist, psychiatrist, forensic psychiatrist?

What specific education, training and professional standing do you have?

Are you saying it is your job is to evaluate clients through examination regarding the psychological damage done by large group awareness training (LGAT) or seminar training through people like Tolle?

"Traumatic brain injury"?

How does that subject specifically relate to evaluating the effects of an LGAT, group or controversial seminar leader like Tolle?

You seem to be misleading people on this thread regarding your specific qualifications to make judgments about Tolle as a professional.

Of course you are free to offer a personal testimonial as a Tolle supporter, but not a professional assessment.

Quote
csp
I'm not being evasive. I said that I was a mental health professional and that "no" I have not submitted a peer reviewed research paper on Tolle. However (for whatever it is worth) I've published many peer reviewed papers in scientific journals in the field of traumatic brain injury and in particular behavioral medicine.

Again ... you and others in this forum are making very pointed criticisms and claims about Tolle's teachings and specifically about the inherent psychological danger of his methods. The burden is on the accuser. My question (and don't be evasive) is what proof do you have of this danger? How many cases are documented? Has anyone taken legal action against him regarding his teachings and techniques? Until you can provide scientifically valid evidence that his teachings are harmful and/or provide case study examples then the accusations are baseless and invalid.

That's interesting.I'm not here to commence legal proceedings and nothing I have said merits legal action against me. I can make personal statements as to why I see inherent contradictions within Tolle's writing, especially within an internet forum. My statements are not professing to be a "guide to enlightenment" either, just personal feelings. Now I know that you're not singling me out and obviously I can only speak for myself. "Over 2 billion sold" whether it's burgers or books are NO proof of nutrition either. Perhaps Tolle should provide "scientifically valid evidence" that his writings are indeed "enlightening". Of course he'll just say to BE the experiment yourself, find out for yourself. So, until "a guide to spiritual enlightenment" can live up to its claim, perhaps Tolle's writing is invalid. And what about "A NEW EARTH?", that's a fairly grand claim; that a book can be a vehicle to a "new" earth. A new earth? what's wrong with THIS earth?

More analysis forthcoming soon.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2008 05:09AM by Hugh Manatee.

You keep asking me questions about myself, but I'm not answering until you answer the questions I posed regarding evidence or case examples that Tolle's teachings are dangerous to the mental health of people. Why can't you answer this simple question? Tolle is innocent until proven guilty.

csp:

OK.

It seems that you have no meaningful professional standing to make any sort of mental health assessment regarding the potential risks or impact of Tolle's teachings.

You are here as a Tolle supporter and apologist, not as a specifically qualified mental health professional offering any credible expert opinion.

Just wanted to have some clarification concerning your supposed credentials.

Thanks for the evasions. This type of response brings us to the common sense conclusion that must have no relevant professional standing on this issue, or you would just answer the questions plainly.

There is a method of mindfulness practice that has been developed and researched by professionals who have submitted it for research:

[www.umassmed.edu]

Professor John Kabat-Zinn's bibiliography and academic qualifications are given here.

If someone is a mental health professional, they are accountable for the safety of their clients. If a mental health professional recommends somoeone or something as a resource, that referral resource meet the current standard for care. The aim is for the referring therapist to care for the well being of the client--to maximize benefit, minimize risk and only to recommend therapeutic modalities that meet the currently accepted standard of care.

It is also incumbant on health care and mental health professionals to avoid conflict of interest ( the term here is 'dual relationships')by not trying to proslytize patients or clients into to a political project, ideology or religious belief system in which the therapist has a personal investment.

If a mental health professional happens to dig ET or some other spiritual practice, that is fine, but it must remain in the sphere of the therapists private life and not be recommended to clients.

If a patient and therapist happen to both be members of the same spiritual community, this must not be permitted to compromise psychotherapy. In a situation like this, the therapist must seek outside input from colleagues who are objective and may need to refer the client elsewhere. All of this is covered in courses on boundary ethics and legal guidelines taught in good clinical programs.

If a therapist refers a client to a spiritual teacher favored by the therapist, and the client meets with harm, the guru often escapes consquences, for guru-ing
is not regulated by law. The referring therapist, who is in a profession regulated by law, is liable for any harm might occur.

A case of this kind is described here:

[www.culteducation.com]

If a mental health professional recommends a spiritual teacher as a resource, it may be very difficult for a client to express skepticism or decline to become involved---clients feel themselves dependent upon the therapist, a well known phenomenon termed 'transferance.' Transferance is a re-enactment of the parent child power imbalance. Properly handled, it makes therapy possible. Mishandled, transferance can lead to a re-enactment of the original scenario in which the client was mishandled by parents. This latter outcome is to be avoided by therapists carefully monitoring boundaries and never but ever proslytizing and by usually mentioning little about their private interests.

A therapist is in a position of tremendous power and must recognize this. Transferance does not go away if a therapist denies its power and the burden of responsibility by claiming to practice an egalitarian approach. If the power of transferance (and the temptation of therapist counter transferance) are denied, the dynamic goes underground and cannot be monitored.

One Zen Center in our area even added a special item to its code of ethics: members who were therapists were warned to be on guard not to use their connections at the Zen Center as a place for seeking clientele. That is the length some do go to keep boundary ethics absolutely clean.

And this is as powerful an application of mindfulness--the power of now in the therapeutic relationship--as one can find.

Quote
csp
I'm curious. What motivated you to read all his books and watch numerous CDs?

I can't say much about Oprah, but I've seen, read and listened to enough of Tolle and others that have been around him that he does "walk the walk." Should he be a full-time hermit? I'm really not sure what people expect him to do or not do in terms of writing and/or public appearances. He did not initiate contact with Oprah. She called him and he accepted the 10-part internet series format. He has some insight into human nature, the ego and how it can tie into our spiritual pursuits that he wants to share. Seems quite reasonable to me. I have much more of a problem with being pounded into submission by pharmaceutical ads on television 24/7.

As for the Course in Miracles ... Tolle makes very little mention of it in his writings. His two main reference points are Buddhism (mindfulness) and Jesus. The reason for the latter is that he is speaking primarily to Westerners and their reference point is Christianity. That and any other spiritual or religious references he makes are to help explain Universal Truths which cut across many religious traditions and spiritual pursuits.

His comments regarding communism, holocaust, etc. do not contradict the reality of "now." They occurred in the now. His point is that these were both examples of large scale manifestations of the ego.

What motivated me? curiosity. The more I listened and read, the more I kept discovering inherent contradictions. I'm a bit of a sleuth and so I continued to watch his popularity flourish along with his bank account. Spiritual materialism? no problem, he's "free" to do as much....for now. No, he doesn't "walk the walk", as a Tolle seminar, in my opinion should NOW be free. Free not only of financial gain but free of words as well. Just pure silence, as it speaks louder than words, or so I'm told. Now, I'm a little concerned for your well-being csp as you confess to being "pounded into submission by pharmaceutical ads on television 24/7". Why not FOLLOW ME and ditch that TV as it would appear that Tolle is doing little for you. NO...do NOT follow me, follow your heart! Granted that Tolle mentions ACIM little in his writings but reference IS made, and he refers to it on his Findhorn Retreat CD as well as a couple of others.

What do you mean by "universal truths"?

"words reduce reality to something the human mind can grasp, which isn't very much. Language consists of five basic sounds produced by the vocal cords. They are the vowels a, e, i, o, u. The other sounds are consonants produced by air pressure: s, f, g, and so forth. Do you believe that some combination of such basic sounds could ever explain who you are, or the ultimate purpose of the universe, or even what a tree or stone is in its depth?"
-Eckhart Tolle, A New Earth; p.27

why should these "mere sounds" be capable of conveying "universal truths?" That's rather absolutist and presumptious wouldn't you say?
1. Thought 2. binary, yes/no signs 3. letters of the alphabet 4. words 5. Sentences/meaning 6. Thought received

who's to say that they CAN'T explain who you are? why Tolle of course, as he purports to tell you about "Awakening to your life's purpose" (from the cover of A New Earth). Yet again, another, amongst MANY inherent contradictions in his writings. As he will be one of the first to tell you that "you don't HAVE a life, you ARE life", therefore, he CANNOT purport to "awaken" you to that which you already are.

"Nobody can tell you who you are. It would just be another concept, so it would not change you."
-ET, A New Earth; p.189 Yet he purports to tell his audience and the world about awakening to their "life's purpose?"

What better way to attempt to create a "new earth" than through Oprah Winfrey's invitation to explain what cannot be explained?

"the TV's hidden agenda becomes control of you by putting you to sleep, that is to say, making you unconscious."

but what if the TV is making you unconscious to ego, form, content, structure, concepts, and ideas? is the "control" justified?

what better way to allegedly lull people into enlightenment via the constant drone 20khz hammering away at them?

I think that Mao could resonate with the Tao were he here NOW.

"Instead of trying to be the mountain, teaches the ancient Tao Te Ching, 'Be the valley of the universe'. In this way, you are restored to wholeness and so "all things come to you."
-ET, A New Earth; p. 216

the "all things come to you" assuages the materialist that prosperity is just around the corner....it worked for Tolle so why not me?
I can hear a communist/capitalist Chinese sweat shop operator repeating that to some unfortunate child.
"be the valley of the universe, where the sludge and shit flows. In this way my child....all things will come to you. BACK TO WORK!!!!!!!" Tolle's philosophy must provide some comfort to those who can afford his retreats etc, but to those who labour under intolerable conditions it is HIGHLY impractical, if not an insult. He keeps his mouth shut regarding current human rights abuses. Never mind the "past" Eckhart, which of course "was" now.

granted he also offers "yet there is enormous and still largely unexplored potential in the medium of television"
fair enough.

As far as "large scale manifestations of the ego" in relation to communism (funded by capitalists!) are concerned, yet ANOTHER contradiction. Were they NOT also manifestations of its victims becoming the "valley of the universe" the lowly ones, stripped of ego?

So which IS it!?!? exquisite, divine, suchness of the perfect eternal ONE "advaita" moment or not?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2008 09:21PM by Hugh Manatee.

Quote: No, he doesn't "walk the walk", as a Tolle seminar, in my opinion should NOW be free.

Response: So who pays for the auditorium and travel expenses? I'm sure that venues in LA, SF and NYC are not cheap. Is he supposed to pay for these out of his pocket or should people coming to listen help?

Quote: Free not only of financial gain but free of words as well. Just pure silence, as it speaks louder than words, or so I'm told.

Response: He does include times of silence during his talks. Also, if you've viewed videos of his retreat talks he only speaks for 1.5 hours per 24 hour day. The rest of the day is supposed to be spent in silence, walking in nature, etc. Also, Tolle repeatedly states that his words are only signposts and not to identify too strongly with his words.

Quote: Why not FOLLOW ME and ditch that TV.

Response: I don't watch TV at home. But when I am at other people's houses I notice that 80% of ads are pharmaceutical.

Quote: What do you mean by "universal truths"?

Response: Universal Truths are in their deepest essence the living reality of God, out of which the consciousness that is ennobled to this learns to read and understand the universal wisdom of the Creator.

Quote: Who's to say that they CAN'T explain who you are? why Tolle of course, as he purports to tell you about "Awakening to your life's purpose"

Response: This is nothing new and has been similarly stated by everyone from the Gnostics to Buddha. Like Quantum physics (e.g. contradictory wave and particle properties), when you get to a certain level of explanation it starts to become contradictory. Zen Buddhists capitalized on this with their Koans.

Quote: He keeps his mouth shut regarding current human rights abuses.

Response: True that he doesn't address humanitarian issues directly. However, he has repeatedly stated that "non-conflict" or "non-resistance" are not incompatible with standing up for one's rights, etc. Maybe you haven't read or listened to enough of his books and tapes. If someone is doing something wrong to you or others you can intervene, say something, protest, etc. but be vigilant of "identifying" with these actions. One can be both silent and still within and at the same time taking the necessary action. It is hard to explain if you haven't experienced it, but I have. One is completely silent (no thoughts whatsoever), but when the thought is required it comes to the surface, action is taken and the mind immediately returns to silence. It all happens very automatically and exactly as it should, but there is no personal identification or maintenance with the thought or action.

csp:

You seem like a true believer.

But Tolle does appear to be running a business for money.

He produces a comercial product, which is for sale.

Oprah is also in business.

A true believer might be too strong a word, because like Krishnamurti, I'm not sure if people are going to be able to get from A-B with his methodology. His personal authenticity is (in my opinion) undeniable (like that of Krishnamurti), but that doesn't mean he is able to create a situation or method to get people to the level of consciousness about which he is speaking and living from. That's tough work ... especially in a culture of quick fixes and easy gratification.

He has written books that have touched a nerve and sell well. I'm not really sure what he is supposed to do about that. I don't think (from what I've seen) that he had this level of popularity or money as a goal. I do know that he has strongly resisted having any sort of group or followers around him because he said that it could turn to an ego-based situation very quickly. He does stay very vigilant of himself in this regard and I'll continue to watch and listen to him for any movement by him toward ego. So far ... I haven't seen any which is a real testament to his state of consciousness and vigilance.