Re: Eckhart Tolle, LSD, Silent Group Meetings, cult WARNING
Posted by:
Sweetface
()
Date: July 18, 2008 06:25AM
Quote
cspQuote
The Anticult
He is NOT enlightened. He might be detached from everything but money and his own Fame, but the dude is NOT enlightened. But he is good at play-acting though.
OK. Can you define for us the criteria for genuine enlightenment or give us an example of someone who is enlightened so that we can discern between those that are and are not? Thanks.
CSP: I don't mean to target you or anything, but you seem a little naive, bless your heart. The only way to spot someone is to have a similar experience yourself. I don't have a teaching, but I did research on how to raise kundalini and applied techniques all on my own, but if you read the 'masters' of vedanta like Ramakrishna or other enlightened lives (documentation is hard to find on older masters like christ and so on, but RK is one of the newest 'avatars' you can read on)... however, before I even knew of RK (1999), 18 years ago I was sold on becoming enlightened so I did 8-12 hours of yoga per day, extreme breathing exersizes, fasting, prayer and I did that for a year never missing one day. Before then, I was easily swayed by fakes, people with major charisma and even those with lots of shakti (energy) who had powers. Yes, I have witnessed powers from Yogi's. It's not until you do the practice on your own that you know the difference. And on top of that, enlightenment isn't as rare as you think. Maybe I've been lucky to know a few of those that are and they are from India who have been monks doing yoga since the age 13. It takes major spiritual austerities to bring enlightenment and even after enlightenment, you still have the same human issues we all have. As long as one is in a body, we are still human, with an ego (a small one and you can tell this by how much love they want to give, not how many books they write). You must retain ego to function afterwards, so don't be swayed into thinking enlightened people are floating on clouds with drone voices that have no humanness left, they do and they have interesting voices, not droney voices. Read Ramakrishna, he was an 'avatar' but he was still very very human with pain occasionally.
I'm not certain how RR feels about legit religions that are not culty, but to me culty is herd thinking and if you 'do' the path, you aren't following the herd. You are on your own which is how I do my own spiritual thing. I learned my lessons in cults, been there done that. Not interested, but ET is.
Re: Eckhart Tolle "advaita"
Posted by:
Sweetface
()
Date: July 18, 2008 06:42AM
Quote
cspQuote
rrmoderator
csp:
I'm sure Tolle would be laughing hysterically at my defense of him and his writings. All ego he would say. Probably true, but it is a part of me at this time, to have a strong reaction to what I judge as someone being falsely accused or grossly misunderstood. There are "gurus" out there that are doing a lot of harm to people, but I don't feel that Tolle is one of them.Quote
The reason why Tolle is harmful is because it's not true. His experience should be written as a fictional book. He is not falsely accused or misunderstood. He harms people with his book because they get deluded and think it's truth and those people are very hard to live wtih. I think people are finally waking up to his gibberish which to me, is so easy to identify. I have studied Vedanta for the last 9 years. My personal experience with kundalini and spiritual experiences were on my own in 1990-1995 when I did LOTS of spiritual practices and then I took a break. In 1999 i found out about Ramakrishna and just about fell over (again) because his life is a very good look at spiritual exerience and I felt peace over what I experienced in my 20's. No one could answer my questions about kundalini crisis (and yes, its a crisis to the western mind when you can't stand noise, have to hermit away, have 101 tempurature for a year continually with a rash all over from overheating) when I was 23, and I didn't dare talk of it unless someone remarked my yellow green concussion on my forehead at work, then i had to explain things. What I am saying, there are REAL teachers out there. They are NOT glamorous and many could care less about fame. They WILL have a practice to teach and will have no desire for you to 'follow' them or even 'defend' them. They will have no use for it. And they wont do much harm to you or your family or to the world by decieving them. I don't think there is anything really WRONG with ET, except that he is creating teachings that are 'his own'. He doesn't say, "this is really vedanta, or read the Upanishads or Gita for more food for thought." He doesn't give credit where it's due and that is a problem. He thinks he is the teaching and that is ALWAYS missing the mark.
Re: Eckhart Tolle, Egomaniac, salesman, and fraud
Posted by:
csp
()
Date: July 18, 2008 09:15PM
Quote: Enlightened individuals would never tell another to not have a practice of some kind if enlightenment was the goal.
Response: Not true. One of the greatest spiritual teachers of the 20th century, J. Krishnamurti, supported the same approach. Krishnamurti has stated that there is only one way to achieve a deep, fundamental and permanent change in our personalities, and that is through a kind of profound, spontaneous insight into our inner nature ... "know thyself". In order to cause such a change it must be without concentration because concentration involves will power and this implies ego activity. Any activity involving concentration, discipline, effort, or force will only cause superficial changes. The underlying mechanism will remain unchanged. He describes a type of "mindfulness" where insight and revelation come to the person of their own accord as opposed to meditation which rigidly follows a path, a discipline, or a method set down by others. One cannot use the ego to force itself into inactivity because the use of force implies ego activity.
Regards,
CSP
Response: Not true. One of the greatest spiritual teachers of the 20th century, J. Krishnamurti, supported the same approach. Krishnamurti has stated that there is only one way to achieve a deep, fundamental and permanent change in our personalities, and that is through a kind of profound, spontaneous insight into our inner nature ... "know thyself". In order to cause such a change it must be without concentration because concentration involves will power and this implies ego activity. Any activity involving concentration, discipline, effort, or force will only cause superficial changes. The underlying mechanism will remain unchanged. He describes a type of "mindfulness" where insight and revelation come to the person of their own accord as opposed to meditation which rigidly follows a path, a discipline, or a method set down by others. One cannot use the ego to force itself into inactivity because the use of force implies ego activity.
Regards,
CSP
Re: Eckhart Tolle, LSD, Silent Group Meetings, cult WARNING
Posted by:
csp
()
Date: July 18, 2008 11:13PM
CSP: I don't mean to target you or anything, but you seem a little naive, bless your heart. The only way to spot someone is to have a similar experience yourself. I don't have a teaching, but I did research on how to raise kundalini and applied techniques all on my own, but if you read the 'masters' of vedanta like Ramakrishna or other enlightened lives (documentation is hard to find on older masters like christ and so on, but RK is one of the newest 'avatars' you can read on)... however, before I even knew of RK (1999), 18 years ago I was sold on becoming enlightened so I did 8-12 hours of yoga per day, extreme breathing exersizes, fasting, prayer and I did that for a year never missing one day. Before then, I was easily swayed by fakes, people with major charisma and even those with lots of shakti (energy) who had powers. Yes, I have witnessed powers from Yogi's. It's not until you do the practice on your own that you know the difference. And on top of that, enlightenment isn't as rare as you think. Maybe I've been lucky to know a few of those that are and they are from India who have been monks doing yoga since the age 13. It takes major spiritual austerities to bring enlightenment and even after enlightenment, you still have the same human issues we all have. As long as one is in a body, we are still human, with an ego (a small one and you can tell this by how much love they want to give, not how many books they write). You must retain ego to function afterwards, so don't be swayed into thinking enlightened people are floating on clouds with drone voices that have no humanness left, they do and they have interesting voices, not droney voices. Read Ramakrishna, he was an 'avatar' but he was still very very human with pain occasionally.[/quote]
Response: I know the teachings of RK very well. I even visited his HQ in India in the 1980's. I traveled the eastern path for many years (including 10+ years of meditation, yoga, pranayama, Sidha powers, etc.), have had many experiences, and met many "advanced" masters on the path. Tolle is aligned with the tradition of J. Krishnamurti which is a blending of Vedanta, Buddhism and Taoism.
Response: I know the teachings of RK very well. I even visited his HQ in India in the 1980's. I traveled the eastern path for many years (including 10+ years of meditation, yoga, pranayama, Sidha powers, etc.), have had many experiences, and met many "advanced" masters on the path. Tolle is aligned with the tradition of J. Krishnamurti which is a blending of Vedanta, Buddhism and Taoism.
Re: Eckhart Tolle "advaita"
Posted by:
csp
()
Date: July 18, 2008 11:15PM
Quote
The reason why Tolle is harmful is because it's not true. His experience should be written as a fictional book. He is not falsely accused or misunderstood. He harms people with his book because they get deluded and think it's truth and those people are very hard to live wtih. I think people are finally waking up to his gibberish which to me, is so easy to identify. I have studied Vedanta for the last 9 years. My personal experience with kundalini and spiritual experiences were on my own in 1990-1995 when I did LOTS of spiritual practices and then I took a break. In 1999 i found out about Ramakrishna and just about fell over (again) because his life is a very good look at spiritual exerience and I felt peace over what I experienced in my 20's. No one could answer my questions about kundalini crisis (and yes, its a crisis to the western mind when you can't stand noise, have to hermit away, have 101 tempurature for a year continually with a rash all over from overheating) when I was 23, and I didn't dare talk of it unless someone remarked my yellow green concussion on my forehead at work, then i had to explain things. What I am saying, there are REAL teachers out there. They are NOT glamorous and many could care less about fame. They WILL have a practice to teach and will have no desire for you to 'follow' them or even 'defend' them. They will have no use for it. And they wont do much harm to you or your family or to the world by decieving them. I don't think there is anything really WRONG with ET, except that he is creating teachings that are 'his own'. He doesn't say, "this is really vedanta, or read the Upanishads or Gita for more food for thought." He doesn't give credit where it's due and that is a problem. He thinks he is the teaching and that is ALWAYS missing the mark.
Response: Tolle calls it "the teaching" not "his teaching" just as J. Krishnamurti always said "the speaker" rather than "me." He referred to himself in the 3rd person and always emphasized not to believe what he said on faith, but to test it yourself first. Same with ET.
Re: Eckhart Tolle "advaita"
Posted by:
solea13
()
Date: July 19, 2008 02:56AM
How does calling it 'THE' teaching override or contradict the point that Sweetface is making here?
"THE' teaching actually makes it sound more as though Tolle is positing his theories as absolute Universal Truths. Just like 'THE' Work of Byron Katie. You have to listen to THE teachings and do THE Work.
That way, as sweetface points out they don't have to tell you exactly where these teaching come from. Otherwise you would just go to the source and figure it out for yourself without paying for books, tapes and $1,000+ seminars/workshops/retreats or whatever.
All these guru-types use the same kind of 'Universal' lingo, as though their particular teachings are the best and most effective and as though none of them have ever heard of each other. Yeah they just 'woke up' one day and all this knowledge landed in their lap. So why doesn't God just do the same for the rest of us?
In fact it would be slightly more honest if he did say 'MY' teaching. Because it is his own version of a mish-mash of various spiritual/mystical ideas.
We can all speak of ourselves in the third person. That doesn't make a person enlightened. I don't believe that Krishnamurti was 'enlightened' either. It just makes a person sound even more arrogant and quite ridiculous, frankly.
A lot of people have 'tested it for themselves first'. That's why they're here. For a lot of people THE teachings didn't work and moreover they created problems for more than a few people up, as you can see when you read through the thread.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2008 02:56AM by solea13.
"THE' teaching actually makes it sound more as though Tolle is positing his theories as absolute Universal Truths. Just like 'THE' Work of Byron Katie. You have to listen to THE teachings and do THE Work.
That way, as sweetface points out they don't have to tell you exactly where these teaching come from. Otherwise you would just go to the source and figure it out for yourself without paying for books, tapes and $1,000+ seminars/workshops/retreats or whatever.
All these guru-types use the same kind of 'Universal' lingo, as though their particular teachings are the best and most effective and as though none of them have ever heard of each other. Yeah they just 'woke up' one day and all this knowledge landed in their lap. So why doesn't God just do the same for the rest of us?
In fact it would be slightly more honest if he did say 'MY' teaching. Because it is his own version of a mish-mash of various spiritual/mystical ideas.
We can all speak of ourselves in the third person. That doesn't make a person enlightened. I don't believe that Krishnamurti was 'enlightened' either. It just makes a person sound even more arrogant and quite ridiculous, frankly.
A lot of people have 'tested it for themselves first'. That's why they're here. For a lot of people THE teachings didn't work and moreover they created problems for more than a few people up, as you can see when you read through the thread.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2008 02:56AM by solea13.
Re: Eckhart Tolle "advaita"
Posted by:
Sweetface
()
Date: July 19, 2008 03:44AM
Exactly. Ok, even Ramakrishna who's movement brought Vedanta to the west in the early 1900's wouldn't identify as "i" but really, he would talk of his body as 'this body' but really , what person a person talks in is not the ticket on how to identfy an enlightened person, nor the tone of their voice, nor their looks, nor their behavior. Enlightened folk are not cookie cutter people. They still retain some personality or in ET's case of lack of personality - poor guy. There are so many myths from the New Age that create so much narccissism that you can cut with a knife because new agers beleive trusims and they don't do the practices themselves to have the experiences one would need to know the difference. Lets say a person did get enlighted and they said "I am the way the truth and the life." and all the audience pointed at him and said "he said I, so he must be fake." Now flip it around, just because a person doesn't say "I" and referes to THE doesn't mean he is enlightened.
Discernment is huge on the mystical path, so is experience. Your not a mystic without spiritual experience and without experience, discernment is hard to achieve. That is why some of the main prayers out there are prayers for discernment, as in Vedanta "May I see the real vs. the unreal". Eventually, thru practice, you will see the difference.
We were all naive at one time, it's ok. If we weren't we wouldn't be here discussing the warning signs.
Discernment is huge on the mystical path, so is experience. Your not a mystic without spiritual experience and without experience, discernment is hard to achieve. That is why some of the main prayers out there are prayers for discernment, as in Vedanta "May I see the real vs. the unreal". Eventually, thru practice, you will see the difference.
We were all naive at one time, it's ok. If we weren't we wouldn't be here discussing the warning signs.
Re: Eckhart Tolle, Egomaniac, salesman, and fraud
Posted by:
Sweetface
()
Date: July 19, 2008 03:59AM
Not true. One of the greatest spiritual teachers of the 20th century, J. Krishnamurti, supported the same approach. Krishnamurti has stated that there is only one way to achieve a deep, fundamental and permanent change in our personalities, and that is through a kind of profound, spontaneous insight into our inner nature ... "know thyself".
"Well good luck... How do you supposed your going to KNOW YOURSELF by not having a practice? Is it just waiting on grace? "
_____
In order to cause such a change it must be without concentration because concentration involves will power and this implies ego activity.
"Kundalini is not a superficial change, and when it ascends all the way past the 7th chakra, you are totally transformed. He can toss all kinds of terms around but he is wrong. Everyone has insight and revelation at various different levels, but it's VERY easy to be decieved by your very own ego that you made it when you didn't. I'd rather have kundalini knock me on my ass so I knew something happened, than being deluded following a schmuk that tells me to have faith in spontaneous 'knowing' by not doing anything. Really, he is pandering to spiritual laziness which America is known for. We excersize will power all the time, make it work for you.
Any activity involving concentration, discipline, effort, or force will only cause superficial changes. The underlying mechanism will remain unchanged. He describes a type of "mindfulness" where insight and revelation come to the person of their own accord as opposed to meditation which rigidly follows a path, a discipline, or a method set down by others. One cannot use the ego to force itself into inactivity because the use of force implies ego activity.
"Well good luck... How do you supposed your going to KNOW YOURSELF by not having a practice? Is it just waiting on grace? "
_____
In order to cause such a change it must be without concentration because concentration involves will power and this implies ego activity.
"Kundalini is not a superficial change, and when it ascends all the way past the 7th chakra, you are totally transformed. He can toss all kinds of terms around but he is wrong. Everyone has insight and revelation at various different levels, but it's VERY easy to be decieved by your very own ego that you made it when you didn't. I'd rather have kundalini knock me on my ass so I knew something happened, than being deluded following a schmuk that tells me to have faith in spontaneous 'knowing' by not doing anything. Really, he is pandering to spiritual laziness which America is known for. We excersize will power all the time, make it work for you.
Any activity involving concentration, discipline, effort, or force will only cause superficial changes. The underlying mechanism will remain unchanged. He describes a type of "mindfulness" where insight and revelation come to the person of their own accord as opposed to meditation which rigidly follows a path, a discipline, or a method set down by others. One cannot use the ego to force itself into inactivity because the use of force implies ego activity.
Re: Eckhart Tolle, LSD, Silent Group Meetings, cult WARNING
Posted by:
Sweetface
()
Date: July 19, 2008 04:16AM
Response: I know the teachings of RK very well. I even visited his HQ in India in the 1980's. I traveled the eastern path for many years (including 10+ years of meditation, yoga, pranayama, Sidha powers, etc.), have had many experiences, and met many "advanced" masters on the path. Tolle is aligned with the tradition of J. Krishnamurti which is a blending of Vedanta, Buddhism and Taoism.[/quote]
It's great to read on the masters. I know alot of sadhakas who love to pilgrimage and they seem to 'follow' the leader alot, guru's and love the actual externals of the path. I said to one guru of mine "If people would just do the sadhana instead of travel and read, they would get there much more quickly". But people like entertainment, they like being entertained in travels and all that but most don't like doing the sadhana until it produces real results. It's work, they'd rather believe the Guru will do it for them, or visiting a city will enlighten them, or better yet dying in a holy city to liberate them. I'm sure you've heard all the dogmatic beleifs on your travels. But even in the RK movement, 99.99 want to follow the leader, very few you will find doing the sadhana. I know that after years of doing sadhana that is ineffective that the ideas of Krishnamurti and ET will sound great because you don't have to do anything to be 'evolved' on their path, you just wait for that pristine moment.....spiritual laziness. My advice to everyone, Stop running after Guru's, stop reading books and just do your practices.
If I wanted fame, the best book for me to write would be to tell everyone to do nothing so they would continue to follow me. If I genuinely care for others I'd give the techniques and tell them like it is and let them on their way. I'm a rebirther. I had one person who was the wife of a famous pundit who traveled every 4 months to India, searching teacher after teacher to get a spiritual experience. She never found a legit guru in India who would 'give it to her' and she was vegetarian, yogini and all that, but still looking outside herself for the experience. She got rebirthed several times and finally had the experience she was looking for. She said she finally had the experience she traveled to india so many times for:why? Because breathing techniques work and they work fast, very uncomfortable on the ego, but they work. She is one of my happiest moments and she thought it was me. She bowed to me and I told her to stop, and just told her to continue doing the breathing. She did prepare for a long time in sadhana for the experience, but if finally came so there is something to say for 'preparation'. She was disheartened on her path, 1000 gurus and swami's and still no answers. She did a technique and WHAM! She didn't need to go to India much after that. Once you have real experience that transform, pilgrimage will have little value for you unless its entertainment.
It's great to read on the masters. I know alot of sadhakas who love to pilgrimage and they seem to 'follow' the leader alot, guru's and love the actual externals of the path. I said to one guru of mine "If people would just do the sadhana instead of travel and read, they would get there much more quickly". But people like entertainment, they like being entertained in travels and all that but most don't like doing the sadhana until it produces real results. It's work, they'd rather believe the Guru will do it for them, or visiting a city will enlighten them, or better yet dying in a holy city to liberate them. I'm sure you've heard all the dogmatic beleifs on your travels. But even in the RK movement, 99.99 want to follow the leader, very few you will find doing the sadhana. I know that after years of doing sadhana that is ineffective that the ideas of Krishnamurti and ET will sound great because you don't have to do anything to be 'evolved' on their path, you just wait for that pristine moment.....spiritual laziness. My advice to everyone, Stop running after Guru's, stop reading books and just do your practices.
If I wanted fame, the best book for me to write would be to tell everyone to do nothing so they would continue to follow me. If I genuinely care for others I'd give the techniques and tell them like it is and let them on their way. I'm a rebirther. I had one person who was the wife of a famous pundit who traveled every 4 months to India, searching teacher after teacher to get a spiritual experience. She never found a legit guru in India who would 'give it to her' and she was vegetarian, yogini and all that, but still looking outside herself for the experience. She got rebirthed several times and finally had the experience she was looking for. She said she finally had the experience she traveled to india so many times for:why? Because breathing techniques work and they work fast, very uncomfortable on the ego, but they work. She is one of my happiest moments and she thought it was me. She bowed to me and I told her to stop, and just told her to continue doing the breathing. She did prepare for a long time in sadhana for the experience, but if finally came so there is something to say for 'preparation'. She was disheartened on her path, 1000 gurus and swami's and still no answers. She did a technique and WHAM! She didn't need to go to India much after that. Once you have real experience that transform, pilgrimage will have little value for you unless its entertainment.
Re: Eckhart Tolle "advaita"
Posted by:
helpme2times
()
Date: July 19, 2008 08:25AM
Not sure if this has been posted yet... a brief article questioning whether Eckhart Tolle's name has been completely fabricated (likely, according to the author):
[[url=http://www.conversantlife.com/philosophy/oprahs-eckhart-tolle-meister-eckhart-and-johannes-tauler]Oprah's "Eckhart Tolle," Meister Eckhart, and Johannes Tauler[/url]]
[[url=http://www.conversantlife.com/philosophy/oprahs-eckhart-tolle-meister-eckhart-and-johannes-tauler]Oprah's "Eckhart Tolle," Meister Eckhart, and Johannes Tauler[/url]]
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