Re: Eckhart Tolle "advaita"
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: March 04, 2009 01:51AM
Thats where Tim Conways article is helpful. He describes exactly how well meaning teachers can become stuck and trapped in the role.
By contrast, people in normal non guru occupations involving heavy public contact (eg physicians) have to learn to safeguard their private lives and in some cases have to learn ways to decompress so as to make the transition from job to home life.
A judge wrote a memoir and said that one thing that helped him keep a sense of perspective was that his wife would often look at him with a twinkle in her eye and tell him, 'Take out the garbage--Your Honor.'
They both had a laugh about it.
(I think the authors name was Satter and the title of the memoir was, 'Doing Justice'. Judge Satter wrote it, because he was dismayed at how very little guidance he recieved when he became a judge--no operating manual, no nothing. One of his early mistakes was selecting a robe that was too long. It looked fine when he walked around, but when he sat on his judicial chair, the skirt of the robe trailed to the floor, got caught under the chair wheels. Judge Satter found himself trapped and unable to stand when it was time for him to rise and dismiss court his first day---and when he finally did stand, he ripped the hem of his garment.
But gurus dont have the freedom to share themselves in public in this human manner. Thats what makes guru-ing such a hazardous occupation. A judge felt able to share his mistakes in a published book. Few gurus have ever done likewise, such as 'My first day as a guru, I tripped over my dhoti and fell down into the fire pit and set fire to my turban.'
Nope. You gotta be perfect.
By contrast, people in normal non guru occupations involving heavy public contact (eg physicians) have to learn to safeguard their private lives and in some cases have to learn ways to decompress so as to make the transition from job to home life.
A judge wrote a memoir and said that one thing that helped him keep a sense of perspective was that his wife would often look at him with a twinkle in her eye and tell him, 'Take out the garbage--Your Honor.'
They both had a laugh about it.
(I think the authors name was Satter and the title of the memoir was, 'Doing Justice'. Judge Satter wrote it, because he was dismayed at how very little guidance he recieved when he became a judge--no operating manual, no nothing. One of his early mistakes was selecting a robe that was too long. It looked fine when he walked around, but when he sat on his judicial chair, the skirt of the robe trailed to the floor, got caught under the chair wheels. Judge Satter found himself trapped and unable to stand when it was time for him to rise and dismiss court his first day---and when he finally did stand, he ripped the hem of his garment.
But gurus dont have the freedom to share themselves in public in this human manner. Thats what makes guru-ing such a hazardous occupation. A judge felt able to share his mistakes in a published book. Few gurus have ever done likewise, such as 'My first day as a guru, I tripped over my dhoti and fell down into the fire pit and set fire to my turban.'
Nope. You gotta be perfect.
Re: Eckhart Tolle "advaita"
Posted by:
Wanderer77
()
Date: March 04, 2009 04:11AM
I have read over these posts. And I hope what I said was of some help. The problem, it seems, is that rarely do people come forward and say: "Hey the Emperor
has no clothes", and without people knowing who this person truly is, they are inclined to idolize the Teacher. Tolle is very human. And I am aghast at how he changed--fame
really took him over and the irony that his big message is about down-playing the EGO is a bit wry and most dry...
All I can say is--he started out with very good stuff--but the fame thing just turned him into a monster--talk about giving us a very good lesson about the EGO getting us into trouble!!--but I distinguish this as the ABUSES of Ego-- not the Ego itself. I can't help but laugh when I see this BIG EGO (Eckhart Tolle) telling all you other EGOS that the Ego is bad.
Who speaks?
Why, an "Ego" who calls himself Eckhart Tolle.
Any true esoteric path teaches us to be mindful of Ego and its potential abuses. Eckhart is just $$exploiting that. Putting it on a $$mass-scale.
And placing his picture and name on everything and anything he puts out. And he does so with a scary ambition-like I said--over-stepping
anyone who may get into his way. I mean, we are talking a self-aggrandizing Bully of the First Order!
And unfortunately, I have had first-hand experience of this kind of treatment.
If he really were sincere, he'd ditch his own Ego and sign everything Anonymous--and hopefully donate all proceeds to worthy causes.
I say: stick to the true teachers: obscure monks, people like Sri Ramakrishna, Sri Aurobindo (a genius of the highest order), Mathew Fox (who cranks out many books, but is so under the fame radar, swamis and monks or rabbis, priests who speak in their places of worship every Sunday or so--and by gosh, trust your own common sense)
Also--Andrew Harvey wrote a book about his own experiences with gurus gone bad!! Very smart book--called The Direct Path--
Peace.
has no clothes", and without people knowing who this person truly is, they are inclined to idolize the Teacher. Tolle is very human. And I am aghast at how he changed--fame
really took him over and the irony that his big message is about down-playing the EGO is a bit wry and most dry...
All I can say is--he started out with very good stuff--but the fame thing just turned him into a monster--talk about giving us a very good lesson about the EGO getting us into trouble!!--but I distinguish this as the ABUSES of Ego-- not the Ego itself. I can't help but laugh when I see this BIG EGO (Eckhart Tolle) telling all you other EGOS that the Ego is bad.
Who speaks?
Why, an "Ego" who calls himself Eckhart Tolle.
Any true esoteric path teaches us to be mindful of Ego and its potential abuses. Eckhart is just $$exploiting that. Putting it on a $$mass-scale.
And placing his picture and name on everything and anything he puts out. And he does so with a scary ambition-like I said--over-stepping
anyone who may get into his way. I mean, we are talking a self-aggrandizing Bully of the First Order!
And unfortunately, I have had first-hand experience of this kind of treatment.
If he really were sincere, he'd ditch his own Ego and sign everything Anonymous--and hopefully donate all proceeds to worthy causes.
I say: stick to the true teachers: obscure monks, people like Sri Ramakrishna, Sri Aurobindo (a genius of the highest order), Mathew Fox (who cranks out many books, but is so under the fame radar, swamis and monks or rabbis, priests who speak in their places of worship every Sunday or so--and by gosh, trust your own common sense)
Also--Andrew Harvey wrote a book about his own experiences with gurus gone bad!! Very smart book--called The Direct Path--
Peace.
Re: Eckhart Tolle
Posted by:
freedom fighter
()
Date: March 24, 2009 01:23PM
i'm just reading over this old post...don't be knocking my little birdy friends. Birds are sweet creatures. They get me in a good mood everytime I'm down. Who cares what Eckhart says about them...I say they're little flying angels. Sorry, just had to defend my birdys.
FF
Quote, the Anticult
"Also, Eckhart Tolle displays his amazing ignorance of natural science, when he says BIRDS are a good example of being in the Now.
Does he know anything about birds?
They are vicious, aggressive, angry, fighting...stealing, cheating, killing...
They steal eachother nests, kill baby birds, eat other birds.
Baby birds kill eachother by pecking to death in the nest. Then sometimes the mother EATS her own dead chick.
Birds are some of the most ruthless Beings ever produced by Evolution.
Birds plan for the future by building nests as well.
Its funny how the New Agers take their IDEA of a bird and try to make it into something it is not.
FF
Quote, the Anticult
"Also, Eckhart Tolle displays his amazing ignorance of natural science, when he says BIRDS are a good example of being in the Now.
Does he know anything about birds?
They are vicious, aggressive, angry, fighting...stealing, cheating, killing...
They steal eachother nests, kill baby birds, eat other birds.
Baby birds kill eachother by pecking to death in the nest. Then sometimes the mother EATS her own dead chick.
Birds are some of the most ruthless Beings ever produced by Evolution.
Birds plan for the future by building nests as well.
Its funny how the New Agers take their IDEA of a bird and try to make it into something it is not.
Re: Eckhart Tolle "advaita"
Posted by:
MumboJumbo
()
Date: March 24, 2009 10:25PM
Quote
Wanderer77
I say: stick to the true teachers: obscure monks, people like Sri Ramakrishna, Sri Aurobindo (a genius of the highest order), Mathew Fox (who cranks out many books, but is so under the fame radar, swamis and monks or rabbis, priests who speak in their places of worship every Sunday or so--and by gosh, trust your own common sense)
Also--Andrew Harvey wrote a book about his own experiences with gurus gone bad!! Very smart book--called The Direct Path--
Peace.
Sri Ramakrishna is not someone I would recommend one follows. That's another cult for another thread!
Re: Eckhart Tolle "advaita"
Posted by:
Ruary
()
Date: September 07, 2009 01:59AM
Hi Wanderer77,
I have been reading Tolle and his works for a bit now. He was the first person to get me into 'spirituality' (this band called 'the Bees' said PON was a good read) but recently he has fuelled my own speculation as to his credibility and so I am not particularly that partial (I don't think) as to the consequence of any conclusion made (only partial perhaps to my vanities). I must say that after reading these posts, yours included, that I have further resumed my trust in his teachings and you have actually relieved some of the doubts that I had. I will forward my points in relation to reviewing your posts;
An obvious place to start is to ask for some reference of egoic behaviour, an interview or something where he is acting egoicly. It is reasonably easy to spot. I have seen a lot of stuff of his and none particularly show it ie. no defensiveness, no self aggrandisement etc. I also think that people that are free to express an openly peaceful relationship with who they are can create an impression of self aggrandisement as many of us are so self deprecating.
Perhaps you will talk of how he has sold millions of books or sells this that and the other. But has this been self serving? I don't know? I myself went and bought it through reputation and interest. I know that this is the case for many others. What I mean by referencing self serving is for instance the hours of adverts that we allow to pollute our inner space all the time (and thus ironically leads to the outer pollution of our planet in these eco curios days). And I know of Ramana Marashi, never said no to any help and encouraged people to come and get him at any hour for any questions.
I liked the way that you talked about the Wizard of Oz thing, I think it is quite accurate and amusing. But I think this is more of an eye of the beholder thing, what I mean is I know I have had my own ideas about what 'enlightenment' is, and then projected this magnanimous ideal onto the 'enlightened' figure (which is really a form of my ego/mind seeking salvation), you can see this more easily collectively in the interpretations of who Jesus Christ was. People who cling to the cross, which is after all an instrument of torture.
'I realize that sounds like a strange question. And normally, people will assume that the person having these beautiful spiritual experiences is a good person, but you know what? It's not necessarily so'
So you believe there are some innately bad people? I don't know, Jesus taught saints and sinners alike.
Anyway I could go on, but I don't even know if this is a dialogue yet. Maybe he has gone bad??? I hope you respond, kind regards,
Ruary
I have been reading Tolle and his works for a bit now. He was the first person to get me into 'spirituality' (this band called 'the Bees' said PON was a good read) but recently he has fuelled my own speculation as to his credibility and so I am not particularly that partial (I don't think) as to the consequence of any conclusion made (only partial perhaps to my vanities). I must say that after reading these posts, yours included, that I have further resumed my trust in his teachings and you have actually relieved some of the doubts that I had. I will forward my points in relation to reviewing your posts;
An obvious place to start is to ask for some reference of egoic behaviour, an interview or something where he is acting egoicly. It is reasonably easy to spot. I have seen a lot of stuff of his and none particularly show it ie. no defensiveness, no self aggrandisement etc. I also think that people that are free to express an openly peaceful relationship with who they are can create an impression of self aggrandisement as many of us are so self deprecating.
Perhaps you will talk of how he has sold millions of books or sells this that and the other. But has this been self serving? I don't know? I myself went and bought it through reputation and interest. I know that this is the case for many others. What I mean by referencing self serving is for instance the hours of adverts that we allow to pollute our inner space all the time (and thus ironically leads to the outer pollution of our planet in these eco curios days). And I know of Ramana Marashi, never said no to any help and encouraged people to come and get him at any hour for any questions.
I liked the way that you talked about the Wizard of Oz thing, I think it is quite accurate and amusing. But I think this is more of an eye of the beholder thing, what I mean is I know I have had my own ideas about what 'enlightenment' is, and then projected this magnanimous ideal onto the 'enlightened' figure (which is really a form of my ego/mind seeking salvation), you can see this more easily collectively in the interpretations of who Jesus Christ was. People who cling to the cross, which is after all an instrument of torture.
'I realize that sounds like a strange question. And normally, people will assume that the person having these beautiful spiritual experiences is a good person, but you know what? It's not necessarily so'
So you believe there are some innately bad people? I don't know, Jesus taught saints and sinners alike.
Anyway I could go on, but I don't even know if this is a dialogue yet. Maybe he has gone bad??? I hope you respond, kind regards,
Ruary
Re: Eckhart Tolle "advaita"
Posted by:
Ruary
()
Date: September 07, 2009 02:01AM
Quote
Wanderer77
I have read over these posts. And I hope what I said was of some help. The problem, it seems, is that rarely do people come forward and say: "Hey the Emperor
has no clothes", and without people knowing who this person truly is, they are inclined to idolize the Teacher. Tolle is very human. And I am aghast at how he changed--fame
really took him over and the irony that his big message is about down-playing the EGO is a bit wry and most dry...
All I can say is--he started out with very good stuff--but the fame thing just turned him into a monster--talk about giving us a very good lesson about the EGO getting us into trouble!!--but I distinguish this as the ABUSES of Ego-- not the Ego itself. I can't help but laugh when I see this BIG EGO (Eckhart Tolle) telling all you other EGOS that the Ego is bad.
Who speaks?
Why, an "Ego" who calls himself Eckhart Tolle.
Any true esoteric path teaches us to be mindful of Ego and its potential abuses. Eckhart is just $$exploiting that. Putting it on a $$mass-scale.
And placing his picture and name on everything and anything he puts out. And he does so with a scary ambition-like I said--over-stepping
anyone who may get into his way. I mean, we are talking a self-aggrandizing Bully of the First Order!
And unfortunately, I have had first-hand experience of this kind of treatment.
If he really were sincere, he'd ditch his own Ego and sign everything Anonymous--and hopefully donate all proceeds to worthy causes.
I say: stick to the true teachers: obscure monks, people like Sri Ramakrishna, Sri Aurobindo (a genius of the highest order), Mathew Fox (who cranks out many books, but is so under the fame radar, swamis and monks or rabbis, priests who speak in their places of worship every Sunday or so--and by gosh, trust your own common sense)
Also--Andrew Harvey wrote a book about his own experiences with gurus gone bad!! Very smart book--called The Direct Path--
Peace.
Re: Eckhart Tolle "advaita"
Posted by:
Ruary
()
Date: September 07, 2009 06:58PM
Hi there Wanderer,
I was just wondering if you could point me to some of Eckhart's egoic behaviour? I really can't find it, so it may be my bad? Kind regards,
Ruary
I was just wondering if you could point me to some of Eckhart's egoic behaviour? I really can't find it, so it may be my bad? Kind regards,
Ruary
Re: Eckhart Tolle "advaita"
Posted by:
Ruary
()
Date: September 09, 2009 01:48AM
Hahaahaha... sorry about that, I couldn't tell whether the message was posted so kept repeating myself. Still anticipating the response though. Kind regards,
Ruary
Ruary
Re: Eckhart Tolle "advaita"
Posted by:
Wanderer77
()
Date: September 11, 2009 11:17PM
Ruary & anyone else who might be interested:
I don't normally go to this page--it has been awhile. To provide "proof" would be to go into some very deep, betrayal stuff, and I must maintain some privacy..but it's unpleasant. And I'm sorry, there's a limit as far as details. ok?
It really just boils down to knowing a person. When they are off-stage. When they were just your friend and not "famous" or renowned, ya know?
It's unfortunate that a person's "persona" is mistaken for their true character.
It just is. There are may instances, however, where the person "walks his or her talk"--but in this arena of New Age Spirituality it is none too common.
I think the Dalai Lama is the real thing. He consistently maintains integrity and humility that is genuine--but I do not know him personally.
(but in all the instances of interviews and the like, the man resonates those virtues.) I also like Huston Smith and Gary Zukov, Robert Thurman.
They are still very grounded and human. They do not hold themselves up to that arena of "spiritual teacher".
Not so, ET.
More so than these others: ET is a money-making machine. Now I hope my old friend is being generous (he's not so much with individuals) and helping causes. I think he is. He was never an materially ostentatious type. But he is definitely on a dangerous track. And it's unfortunate. Not to say he isn't good at what he does-he's excellent--but it's dangerous to pass yourself off as this Spiritual Teacher when you yourself have clay feet. The guy is just this guy.
I tried to say earlier that there were glimpses of this "cocksure, I know it all" manner--but he really was always polite and very nice to me and fun to be with.
So I forgave it. Once he hit the big time as they say-he went overkill on his ego--ironically--as that is all he talks about-that one must diminish the ego--whoa-- he
is so much the opposite of that, but not in his Public PERSONA.
Behind the scenes...it's awful. It really is. It's just the facts of knowing someone then and now--And he would call me and chat with me and ask me to meet him for lunch and all this stuff (even in the early says of the Power of Now--back about 8 years ago or so--he was still my old friend)--but not any more. In fact, he's worse than ever. Go to his website--he has gobbildy gook about "love"--let me tell you--that guy doesn't love anyone outside of himself. And that's the truth. It's also a weird, untrue statement.
..Oh..well.. life goes on and I suggest reading those others I mentioned--and actually, I think the swamis at the Vedanta Society I attend have more spiritual wisdom--and yet remain humble and modest and ego-less. They are the real thing.
I don't normally go to this page--it has been awhile. To provide "proof" would be to go into some very deep, betrayal stuff, and I must maintain some privacy..but it's unpleasant. And I'm sorry, there's a limit as far as details. ok?
It really just boils down to knowing a person. When they are off-stage. When they were just your friend and not "famous" or renowned, ya know?
It's unfortunate that a person's "persona" is mistaken for their true character.
It just is. There are may instances, however, where the person "walks his or her talk"--but in this arena of New Age Spirituality it is none too common.
I think the Dalai Lama is the real thing. He consistently maintains integrity and humility that is genuine--but I do not know him personally.
(but in all the instances of interviews and the like, the man resonates those virtues.) I also like Huston Smith and Gary Zukov, Robert Thurman.
They are still very grounded and human. They do not hold themselves up to that arena of "spiritual teacher".
Not so, ET.
More so than these others: ET is a money-making machine. Now I hope my old friend is being generous (he's not so much with individuals) and helping causes. I think he is. He was never an materially ostentatious type. But he is definitely on a dangerous track. And it's unfortunate. Not to say he isn't good at what he does-he's excellent--but it's dangerous to pass yourself off as this Spiritual Teacher when you yourself have clay feet. The guy is just this guy.
I tried to say earlier that there were glimpses of this "cocksure, I know it all" manner--but he really was always polite and very nice to me and fun to be with.
So I forgave it. Once he hit the big time as they say-he went overkill on his ego--ironically--as that is all he talks about-that one must diminish the ego--whoa-- he
is so much the opposite of that, but not in his Public PERSONA.
Behind the scenes...it's awful. It really is. It's just the facts of knowing someone then and now--And he would call me and chat with me and ask me to meet him for lunch and all this stuff (even in the early says of the Power of Now--back about 8 years ago or so--he was still my old friend)--but not any more. In fact, he's worse than ever. Go to his website--he has gobbildy gook about "love"--let me tell you--that guy doesn't love anyone outside of himself. And that's the truth. It's also a weird, untrue statement.
..Oh..well.. life goes on and I suggest reading those others I mentioned--and actually, I think the swamis at the Vedanta Society I attend have more spiritual wisdom--and yet remain humble and modest and ego-less. They are the real thing.
Re: Eckhart Tolle "advaita"
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: September 11, 2009 11:58PM
In case anyone missed it, there is a long thread about ET on another part of the message board. In case anyone got bored due to the troll invasion on this thread, you can read this other thread and learn a lot.
One correspondant PSI Surivor, reported trouble in her workplace because her boss got into ET and brought ET affirmation cards to work and passed them around.
(This person was struggling to recover from earlier involvement in a bad group, so got very upset when the boss became heavy handed, so wrote in very strong terms.)
[forum.culteducation.com]
The first page of the thread begins here:
[forum.culteducation.com]
One correspondant PSI Surivor, reported trouble in her workplace because her boss got into ET and brought ET affirmation cards to work and passed them around.
(This person was struggling to recover from earlier involvement in a bad group, so got very upset when the boss became heavy handed, so wrote in very strong terms.)
[forum.culteducation.com]
The first page of the thread begins here:
[forum.culteducation.com]
Quote
There is a discussion on the Google listserve that raise intersting points
[i:43d54b8e6f]'A cessation of mentation as a result of intense concentration _may_ be
a precursor to Awakening in some "accidental" enlightenment
experiences (e.g. Eckhart Tolle's, or John Wren-Lewis'), or in some
very thorough systematic approaches (like the Theravada), but it is
not Awakening itself: or, put it this way, it isn't a _necessary_
precursor to Awakening. In fact, Awakening is a BREAK in any form of
samadhi-like concentration (taking "samadhi" in its lesser meaning -
for it can also mean the Result itself, in some systems). It's at
complete right angles to anything you've ever experienced or imagined.
(I say this based on your writings - you may be playing a game of some
sort, but I am responding to your words as they stand.)
It's like this: if you fix your gaze, the saccades (the little
jerkings about) that your eyes constantly unconsciously make cease,
and because the visual system normally sees things by noticing
borders, edges and differences, the visual system "whites out". (This
fact is taken advantage of in some Daoist practices, and some Dzogchen
Longde practices, if I'm not mistaken - right Namdrol?)
Since the whole mental system works in an analogous way, by noticing
differences, I believe something analogous may happen if the _whole
mental system_ is "frozen" in a concentrative state - it ceases to
experience anything at all. BUT THAT IS NOT AWAKENING.'[/i:43d54b8e6f](from)
[www.google.com]
Getting back to the practical issues:
All consuming bliss is survivable if you have someone to support you, (Ramana Maharshi had someone who brought food to him in his cave and took him in for medical care when he got sick).
In all these guru legends, they rarely talk about the family members who supported these people--or who were abandoned by them. Too often the focus is on the marvellous wisdom of the guru, but nothing is said about whether his or her family or friends had to pay a price supporting that person.
(One of the few who ever gave full credit to his family for saving his life was Gopi Krishna. Krishna was incapacitated for many years by a cripplling mental and physical ailment that befell him as a result of his strenuous yoga practice. He describes the kind of nursing care he needed from his wife, and tells how his father went mentally off balance from yoga practice and reduced his family to poverty. It was G Krishna's mother who took over the family and her son pays her full tribute--all this and more in [i:43d54b8e6f]'Living with Kundalini' [/i:43d54b8e6f]by Gopi Krishna)
Without a support system, an enlightenment experience of the kind Tolle describes could leave us homeless. The social welfare network is not as good as it was, back in the 1960s.
If enlightenment means someone else has to be your caregiver, and for an extended period of time, that's a little scary--and seekers need to know about that. And they'd better find out if their family or friends are willing to be their caretakers.
The older traditions warn us that realizing enlightenment is only the start. All kinds of deep reaction patterns still linger in one's body and central nervous system, along with social biases and traumas one has incurred while growing up.
You can have valid enlightenment and then still have to do lots of intentional work to extend that new found awareness into these blind spots and neuroses. This process takes time and cannot be rushed. And everybody needs a different approach--no one method works for everyone.
Agehananda Bharati in his book [i:43d54b8e6f]The Light at the Center: Context and Pretext of Modern Mysticism[/i:43d54b8e6f], interviewed many people who had had enlightenment experiences. Bharati had had a number of 'zero experiences' himself. He reported that enlightenment does NOT automatically endow a person with infallibility and it doesnt automatically heal pre-existing neurosis or educational deficits. As Bharati put it, if you're a nice or a mean person before enlightenment, your temperament will remain nice or mean afterwards. Enlightenment doesnt automatically cure people of sexism, phobias, nor does it give superhuman powers.
In India, Bharati met people who assumed he knew higher mathematics just because he was a renunciate monk, and, presumably enlightened. Time and again, Bharati had to tell them that was nonsense, enlightenment doesnt make you infallible, any more than mastering the piano or some other fine art. He'd still have to take classes and do the homework if he wanted to learn calculus.
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