Thanks for your wise words Meh and Hitch - I totally agree with all the points you highlight above. Especially how it is up to us to set the boundaries. I think my reticence to speak out to these people comes from a fear that once I start I will never stop, and that I will just end up ranting!

There is still so much I am suppressing about what I feel about this organisation. I am sure I will eventually learn to express myself in a clear way to people around me about this subject, but in the meantime that is one of the reasons why I am so grateful to have a forum like this and to share things with people who have gone through the same things.

Guys, am not sure if this is just my foolish brain doing tricks, or if its truth.

I was reading Holly's remark and Hitch's response.

Quote

holly_golightly had written

When I think about the amount of chanting I used to feel that I had to do just to attend a meeting at work or have a normal conversation it reinforces how debilitating it was for me and how I created a prison for myself, with fear of what might happen if I didn't chant.


Hitch replied

And it's entirely self created. Therefore, one can also break it down and escape from it, oneself, too.

Perfect summary of the gakkai cult org., "holly_golightly." Perfect.

Swear that as I read Holly's words "I created a prison for myself", my mind did a Freudian slip and I read it as "I created a person for myself."

As in created what seemed a true self, but was a counterfeit self.

I have done this to myself.

And I have seen this done by people to themselves.

Weighing out a counterfeit self and regaining one's indigenous self can be complicated. Like finding weeds in one's yard and having to dig them out and replace them with the plants one loved before the weeks were allowed to take over.

If a cult has dictated one's clothing one has to rediscover what one actually enjoys wearing. Its complex.

holly_golightly, I understand exactly what you're saying! Once the dam breaks, it's hard to hold it back. Just a suggestion, but have you thought about writing it out, just for yourself? That sometimes helps me release some of the true venom. You can rant away there, and you don't need to worry about hurting someone's feelings (which seems important to you), you can organize your thoughts a bit, and maybe be able to decide what is important for you to say. I know you value these relationships, but we've lived in the shadows of dishonesty for so long that, for our own well-being, we need to clear them out. It's not good to hold all of that in, and really - talking to yourself (or writing to yourself) helps. Like so many of us here, there's are several boatloads of anger (and then a little more to spare) - for me, most of it is directed at the org, but there's plenty there for myself as well. If I had a nickel for every time I've asked myself how I could be so gullible and stupid, I'd be able to retire!

I go through the postings here, and I feel better about making the choice to join sgi - in fact, I no longer see that it WAS a conscious choice, because I was so programmed after a couple of months that it was inevitable. Other than the mis-fortune babies on this mb, we all took that step; the point is, though, that our vision eventually cleared and we did make a free-minded choice to leave. And it's hard, hard-hard-hard to leave, especially when nearly all of our friends are members, we have relatives who are members . . . just remember that there is a big wide world of people out there who have never even heard of sgi, Cousin Rufus or any of the related craziness.

Reach out to people who aren't members. Form new friendships where you can . . . this is really important. We're starting fresh new lives now, and we are completely empowered as to who we want in them . . . we get to repopulate our mental landscapes with the people we choose - not those who are sadly and sickly programmed for someone else's get-rich/gain-power agenda.

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corboy
Guys, am not sure if this is just my foolish brain doing tricks, or if its truth.

I was reading Holly's remark and Hitch's response.

Quote

holly_golightly had written

When I think about the amount of chanting I used to feel that I had to do just to attend a meeting at work or have a normal conversation it reinforces how debilitating it was for me and how I created a prison for myself, with fear of what might happen if I didn't chant.


Hitch replied

And it's entirely self created. Therefore, one can also break it down and escape from it, oneself, too.

Perfect summary of the gakkai cult org., "holly_golightly." Perfect.

Swear that as I read Holly's words "I created a prison for myself", my mind did a Freudian slip and I read it as "I created a person for myself."

As in created what seemed a true self, but was a counterfeit self.

I have done this to myself.

And I have seen this done by people to themselves.

Weighing out a counterfeit self and regaining one's indigenous self can be complicated. Like finding weeds in one's yard and having to dig them out and replace them with the plants one loved before the weeks were allowed to take over.

If a cult has dictated one's clothing one has to rediscover what one actually enjoys wearing. Its complex.

You are definitely on to something there, because I've made the observation that some of the gakkai cult members I've known, especially some of the so-called "pioneering" members (the originals who helped the cult org. get a foothold and start in the U.S.A.), had two separate, very distinct personalities. One, super fake gakkai cult org. face, and another completely opposite "private" or "off time" face. I've even mentioned this fact to some of them to their face(s) (pun intended), . . . . . telling them they are extremely two-faced, and asking them if they even realized it. They don't, and what's more, they didn't even want to talk about it either.

Those salaried "YOUTH!" cult org. "leader" clips posted a while back on this thread, are excellent examples as to gakkai crafted personality transplants (especially the David Witkowski clips). These kinds of hardcore full on Ikeda-bots, are a pet-peeve of mine, because I saw the same process take hold over other members when I was in. I even recognized it attempting to take hold of me and had to actively resist it. It's like a "mind virus" that slowly takes over; the degree to which it takes over usually depends on the kind of person it has infected (the circumstances that brought them to the cult org., how hard they've been manipulated, etc.).

That clip I posted again on the other page (here it is again, [www.youtube.com]), really sums up the "Cults In Our Midst" scenario (as per Singer's [en.wikipedia.org] book). I can't quite put my finger on it, but there is something there in the cult lady vendor's attitude, demeanor and behavior, that just rings false to me. It's very subtle, but it's there. An almost "automatic", "mechanical" way, in which she gets the potential "shakubuku's" to chant the magic phrase (NMRK). [Keep in mind that this is a cult org. indoctrinated trick, where they believe that you have to get someone to actually say out loud, the magic words, and then you have made a "great cause" for their lives AND yours, by planting the magic seed.]

To me, it's just so manipulative and evil. The cult vendor says, "Can I get you to chant a little bit with me . . . . " "Nam-MyohoRengeKyo, Nam-MyohoRengekyo" . . . . . . . but what they are really, really saying, is . . . . . "Let-TheCultTakeOverYourMind, Let-TheCultTakeOverYourMind, Let-TheCultTakeOverYourMind."

In doing so, you do indeed create another person and self-imposed prison. Once one has been in that prison long enough (or for too long), they might actually come to even prefer that prison, over the real world.


- Hitch

These recent conversations remind me of a posting by TaitenandProud, on page 8 of this thread - it's about missing the self we became when we were in the clutches of the Evil Empire. I don't think a day has passed since reading that when I haven't thought "That self can go fuck itself."

When you have handed your own personal power over as most of us here have, bit by bit and imperceptibly, it forms vacant spaces in our psyches (or whatever). Isn't it inevitable that we occupy those little spaces with the traits of those who control us? They're the ones with the power, after all, and by that very circumstance they demonstrate that they know more than we do. We may or may not consciously want to be like them, but the fact that they appear to be flourishing demonstrates that they are doing something "right," so we try to emulate them. It's only when they do or say something that slams us into a wall that we wake up from the bad dream.

[hitch]That clip I posted again on the other page (here it is again, [www.youtube.com]), really sums up the "Cults In Our Midst" scenario (as per Singer's [en.wikipedia.org] book). I can't quite put my finger on it, but there is something there in the cult lady vendor's attitude, demeanor and behavior, that just rings false to me. It's very subtle, but it's there. An almost "automatic", "mechanical" way, in which she gets the potential "shakubuku's" to chant the magic phrase (NMRK). [Keep in mind that this is a cult org. indoctrinated trick, where they believe that you have to get someone to actually say out loud, the magic words, and then you have made a "great cause" for their lives AND yours, by planting the magic seed.]

To me, it's just so manipulative and evil. The cult vendor says, "Can I get you to chant a little bit with me . . . . " "Nam-MyohoRengeKyo, Nam-MyohoRengekyo" . . . . . . . but what they are really, really saying, is . . . . . "Let-TheCultTakeOverYourMind, Let-TheCultTakeOverYourMind, Let-TheCultTakeOverYourMind."

In doing so, you do indeed create another person and self-imposed prison. Once one has been in that prison long enough (or for too long), they might actually come to even prefer that prison, over the real world.[end quote]

That reminds me of the story of Dracula (bear with me). The vampire can't get access to you in your home unless you invite him in, and getting someone to recite Beetle-Juice-Beetle-Juice-Beetle-Juice is tantamount to inviting the vampire into your head. So lulling, so soothing . . . so innocent. Not a "Twilight" series fan and probably a tortured metaphor but, for me, there's a similarity. Sgi is a giant spiritual vampire, just waiting to suck you in and turn you into a slack-jawed, dead-eyed creature of the organization.

No, I don't miss that person I was, not even a little bit. It's unbelievable to me that it's only been two weeks since I left the organization, and I have a lot of reconstruction work to do on the new and improved me. For me, staying in contact with the woman who sb'd me is turning out to be very positive in a kind of perverse way. When I spoke with her today, she told me that she went to a baby-shower (mostly non-sgi members) over the weekend; the weather was "the kind of weather that you chant for when you're planning an outdoor event!" OMG - not only did I hear how completely stupid that sounded, but in her words I heard that she is incapable of divorcing her thoughts from sgi for even a moment. Everything is associated with it. I mean, I appreciate the fact that planning stuff outside in WA state can be dicey, it also isn't a jesus-with-the-loaves-and-fishes miracle. Did I really say dumb shit like that? Yeah . . . afraid so.

You can attribute anything to anything. A dear friend who lives downstairs is dying of cancer; I happen to be laid off right now, so I have the chance to spend time with him. I don't see a "mystic law" connection there - I do believe in karma, though, and we've got these little karmic circles going on. It's nice just to sit there, hold his hand, tell him dirty jokes and listen to his stories . . . I think that's what he needs right now. I know in my heart that my remaining sgi friends would be nagging me to shakubuku him, to get him to chant, yadda-yadda. I am enjoying the little bit of time I have to enjoy him as a person, make him laugh, remind him that he was a pretty hot guy in his day and not concern myself with him expiating his karma. He's at peace and, as he says, he's good with his god. If that's what makes him at ease for what's coming up for him, then he's exactly where he needs to be. And I like to think that I'm a small but positive part of his day.

Here is something that may deepen the insights offered by the vampire analogy.

It is from a book, Unholy Hungers by Barbara E. Hort.

She refers to a novel by Paul Monette, Nosferatu.

"

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Monette sets his story in the town of Wismar, where everything is plentiful and perfect. One of the first inklings we have of Dracula's arrival is the emergence among Wismar's inhabitants of the hunger for more.

Jonathan....chose a pastry layered with cream and frosted with chocolate. He finished the pastry and smacked his lips, and straightened his tie in the window of the bank. And he had a sudden pang in the region of his heart..that left him with the strangest feeling. He put a hand to his billfold, in the inside pocket of his coat, and thought, with an anxious shiver, I have to have more.(11-13)

Unholy Hungers, page 16.

Now, about the two personalities, its been written that there is such a thing as a fictitious self created when one has to commute between two differen worlds.

That fictitious self can be highly effective and efficient. That may be one of the things we may miss when we leave a group or situation we know to have been bad for us.

A person who has been a veteran of the seekers scene wrote of X who is a casualty of something other than SGI. Some of what this correspondant wrote may apply to what you've reported being through.

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). The eyes can say a lot, especially to a hypnotist or someone who notices altered states. Emotionally X is on over drive, she's amped up and believes she has the "truth". Very altered, very abused.

And what you are getting isn't X herself but the indoctrination she received at the hands of her gurus.

They turned her into a sock puppet, who only says what they want her to say.

Now X isn't like this all the time, humans can't run this hot all the time, they'll burn out and die.

My bet she goes into it the moment she's in the presence of a guru figure or when she talks about spirituality – it’s context specific.

Otherwise I suspect she's tired and withdrawn like a drug addict waiting for the next hit.

You can’t be “on” all the time, you’ll eventually crash( many are in a state of exhaustion after training).

A cult personality may be highly effective--but ruthless.

One has suppressed doubt.

One isnt restrained by real world concerns for consequences or ethical considerations. All thats been entrusted to the leader of the group.

So a personality with all these ordinary restraints removed--zoom. No friction from doubt holding one back.

Whoa, corboy . . . you've hit some major nails on their heads, and explained something very clearly to me.

My friend in WA state does not work outside the house, it's been decades since she's done so. I'm not condemning that in any manner shape or form (I wouldn't mind that myself). What I am saying, though, is that sgi is the focus of her universe. She and her husband have been leaders, off and on, for years and their 20-something daughter will probably wind up producing mis-fortune babies of her own. My friend is completely surrounded and buried in the practice; she has few friends who aren't members. Having no outside attachments or influences, and because she has a couple of physical issues she rarely leaves the house more than once every week or so (hmm, chanting hasn't made them go away - she must be doing something wrong), she has had no reason to question her practice or anything about it. Because she's been a good zombie for so many years (probably 40 or so at this point) and has never done anything to raise ire from anyone, she is so conditioned to all the craziness that it's normal, so no doubts could possibly rise in her mind. There is simply no room for them.

This is Senseless's dirty little sheet-staining dream! She is completely enveloped in the practice and practitioners, subject to conditioning and reinforcement in every aspect of her life. Wow. I'm new to being taiten, so these revelations are obvious to others, but new and profound to me.

She is a perfect example of the isolation segment of the program. A poster child. Holy crap.

Yi. If most of a person's social network consists of persons sharing the same mindset, it becomes an echo chamber, constantly reinforcing itself.

By contrast, in old cultures, there was a tradition of subversive humor in relation to its 'holy folk'.



"A martyr is someone who lives with a saint."

An Austrian said that there was a stock phrase in the region where he came from.

"Our pastor is a bum -- except for his holy ordination."

In India, there was and may still be a proverb, "Only Shiva knows whether a sadhu's robe covers the real thing"

An acquaintance who was Eastern Orthodox had another folk proverb -- "Monks take the vows." The laity keep them."


In Rome, at least in Republican times, the victorious general was, for a day, the embodiment of the Spirit of Roma. But behind him was a slave who whispered 'You are but mortal."

And by ancient custom, the general's troops would march behind, and sing dirty songs at the victor's expense - a 'roast'. All this was done to appease envy which was considered a force to be reckoned with.

According to Suetonius, one song the troops sang, marching behind Caesar as he celebrated his conquest of Gaul went like this:

"Home we bring our bald whoremonger;
Romans lock your wives away!

All the sacks of gold you sent him
Went his Gallic tarts (hookers) to pay

(Caesar was notoriously promiscuous and greedy. And he was known to be vain and hated being bald. So his combat veterans knew exactly where to bust his chops)

(transl by Robert Graves.)

But in cults, there is none of this playfulness.

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meh
Reach out to people who aren't members. Form new friendships where you can . . . this is really important. We're starting fresh new lives now, and we are completely empowered as to who we want in them . . . we get to repopulate our mental landscapes with the people we choose - not those who are sadly and sickly programmed for someone else's get-rich/gain-power agenda.

Thanks for this :)