I wish I had $5 for every time I tuned out my misgivings. I'd be able to hire a chauffer/euse and swank car.

Have only just come upon the metaphor/simile of anger, dismay, doubt, revulsion, unease as being similiar to the signal system we use for vehicle traffic.

Eliminate these "negative" emotions and attitudes wholesale and there are no restraints or brakes on human eccentricity and greed.

Ever notice how people who try to jump lines are often frowned at until they get the point and stand where they belong?

Or the frowns that signal line jumpers to restrain themselves? Thats a human signal system that regulates behavior.

Keep only the smiles and remove the frowns of misgivings or exhaustion and all the guru or line jumpter has are a series of green lighs that signal go, go go grab, grab grab grab, line jump line jump.

And the fake Dharma and New Age scene is like that -- all green lights and no stop signs for bossy types

Those signals are critical to our survival. We use/receive them in every day life . . . at work, in relationships, not jumping the queue, figuring out whether someone has good/bad intentions . . . and like everything else, some of us might just be more susceptible to them than others are - sort of a reverse-Asberger's. I forget how many subtle facial expressions form that "vocabulary," but I think I read that there are thousands, and each has meaning at a primal level. It's so instinctual that we don't even know it's taking place.

I had a friend who said that every time he listened to his instincts, he did the right thing; it was listening to what his head was talking him into that got him into trouble. There's a wonderful book by Malcolm Gladwell called "Blink: The Power of Thinking Without Thinking" where he discusses this; the more information we gather, the more likely we are to arrive at the wrong decision. I would suppose that wouldn't apply to investing in the stock market, but when it comes to human relations the premise seems to hold true. I sort of went to my first sgi meeting in 2002 or 2003. I say "sort of," because I didn't even get past the lobby area of the community center; I got a weird vibe the minute I heard the chanting . . . it just didn't feel good - I couldn't get out of there fast enough. Three or four years later, I talked myself into not only staying in a meeting but joining. It didn't feel quite right at the beginning, but proceeded anyway. Before long, the bad vibe was gone, and I became a good little zombie for awhile.

Even though I admit to a certain level of new-aginess, there are certain elements of it that are a little too woo-woo; the whole thing about eliminating anger is BS. Anger can be a good thing when harnessed properly - it's the start of some of the best things that humanity has ever done. Denial of anger, negative feelings (our instincts frantically hitting the brakes on something) and a perpetual smile indicate that there's something wrong. Someone is lying to themselves when they say they don't get angry, and they are the first ones to start believing those lies. Once you start believing your own fantasies, you can be very persuasive and convincing with others - you're so committed to your untruths that your facial expressions are short-circuited -you put on your truthiness face, because you aren't saying anything you don't believe yourself. The words "sociopath" and "psychopath" come to mind.

Meh wrote:

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I sort of went to my first sgi meeting in 2002 or 2003. I say "sort of," because I didn't even get past the lobby area of the community center; I got a weird vibe the minute I heard the chanting . . . it just didn't feel good - I couldn't get out of there fast enough.

Three or four years later, I talked myself into not only staying in a meeting but joining. It didn't feel quite right at the beginning, but proceeded anyway. Before long, the bad vibe was gone, and I became a good little zombie for awhile.

This is a great example of how we can lose contact with those non verbal warnings if we remain too long in a dodgy situation.

(I say this having done it myself)

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Three or four years later, I talked myself into not only staying in a meeting but joining.

Thats a great description of how our verbal minds can be tricked into suppressing our gut instincts.

Must say once, just once, my gut did drive me to do something that turned out to be important in a group situation.

I was serving as a juror. Medical malpractice case. The judge gave jurors permission to ask questions by writing them down. The bailiff would take our written note and send it up to the judge. If the judge found the question worthwhile, he would put the question to whoever was on the witness stand being cross questioned.

I was sitting in the jury box and wondered about a certain point. Suddenly, I thought it a foolish question. Suddenly I felt a sensation in my gut, as if a small entity was shouting, wordlessly--"Ask the question."

I kept thinking the question was stupid and would make me look stupid. My gut kept giving me a sensation that the question had to be asked.

I felt like a fool, but wrote out the question and sent the note to the judge.

The judge asked the question of the physician who was the defendant. The physician proceeded to answer the question--and revealed additional information. This additional information provided by the defendant proved to be very imporant.

That was one of several other factors that contributed to the jury's decision to aquit the physician.

Research has barely begun, but scientists have found that the human gut is so rich in neurotransmitter receptors that they have termed it 'the second brain'.

So far, PET scans are only designed to focus on the brain that is in our heads.

When we can create a PET scan that can measure activity in both the gut transmitters and the brain, perhaps we may discover that the gut may play a role in certain kinds of decision making.

For now, all we can do is note how very many people report they have rarely or never felt sorry trusting their guts.

Most of us are taught early on that trusting our gut isn't reliable or dependable . . . trust the facts that are put before you. Facts (even the best of them) can be fuzzy and open to interpretation. And not nearly as factual as we'd like to think. Corboy, you changed the course of someone's life by following what you gut was telling you - no small thing. We need to develop more confidence in those feelings. Nearly every time I've listened to my head instead of my tummy, it's turned out to be a poor decision.

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meh
I sort of went to my first sgi meeting in 2002 or 2003. I say "sort of," because I didn't even get past the lobby area of the community center; I got a weird vibe the minute I heard the chanting . . . it just didn't feel good - I couldn't get out of there fast enough. Three or four years later, I talked myself into not only staying in a meeting but joining. It didn't feel quite right at the beginning, but proceeded anyway. Before long, the bad vibe was gone, and I became a good little zombie for awhile.

Fascinating insight. I've seen that "weird vibe" reaction from many extended family and friends, growing up in the gakkai cult org.. I've even seen people completely stunned silent about it when they first see it (the chanting, particularly the more wild, frenzied kind) and then later, in private, like some kind of delayed reaction hours or days later, completely freak out about it (like they couldn't hold it in anymore).

Hell, I've even experienced that same kind of transient "weird vibe" reaction when I saw certain salaried gakkai "leader" Ikeda-bots chanting, with their eyes popping out, head bobbing up-n-down, body shaking, etc. (Hi, Ethan Gelbaum!). I also experienced it a lot, and more frequently, when I went on tozan, everything was ratcheted way up, openly encouraged and more extreme during cult retreat pilgrimages.

When you are inside the cult org., you just kind of condition yourself to try to ignore it and, after a while, it all starts to kind of just roll off your back (at least it was that way with me). But, still, . . . . there are those moments . . . . . . when it pops up again.


- Hitch

It was a dramatic shift for me when I moved from the southwest to the Philly area. ABQ and El Paso were very laid back; people were enthusiastic in their way, always applauding and encouraging, etc, but it wasn't until Philly that I saw such high energy and the frenzied version of chanting. Krg was highly interactive, almost a call-and-response format, people getting up in middle of someone's recitation of an experience and doing a weird hands-in-the-air-grinning-manically-spinning-with-joy kind of happy dance. It was just freaking weird; I'm kind of a quiet person, and these public displays of rabid enthusiasm just made me so uncomfortable. Before I moved out here, I rarely missed krg; in the three years I've been back, I probably hadn't gone 10 times - it was just too bizarre for me. I grew up in the 60's and 70's and have a pretty high tolerance for weirdidity, but this stuff was over the top.

It's funny - my son did come to a new year's day krg with me; he's a stone atheist, but came because it was also my birthday and he knew it would mean a lot. I dragged him out right after gongyo - I was too embarrassed for him to see the circus that was upcoming. Maybe that's when the veil actually started thinning for me a bit, seeing it a bit through his skeptical eyes.

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meh

I talked to the friend that shakubuku'd me today; we've been friends for many years, and long before I signed on, so we have a lot in common outside the organization, and we talk nearly every day. I'm progressively more stunned at some of the total crap that comes out of her mouth. I've been laid off for awhile, and it's tough surviving on unemployment which will go away since the sequestration has removed extensions. I got a little panicky a couple of weeks ago, and suddenly realized that I'm eligible for social security. No mystic voice whispered this into my ear, by the by, I just realized it all by my very own self. I was originally told that it would probably be two months before I'd start receiving benefits from them. I had a surprising phone call today, and they said I would begin receiving them next week. When I told my friend about it, she said "well, I'm sure it's from chanting." Honestly, I thought she was kidding - I chuckled and told her that I wasn't sure how to respond to that. She petulantly changed the subject with her next breath. Perfect example of the utter blindness these people have . . . good things can only come from chanting, and if they do (especially to someone who's left the org), well, we just won't talk about them. I'm kind of surprised that she didn't tell me that I'm lucky that I'm receiving it at all, since not chanting should create a totally suck-filled life.

Apologies for the late reply to this but I am just catching up and this struck a chord with me. The feeling of not having to do daimoku or all the other rituals in order to solve our problems is very empowering I think - thank you for reminding me of this. I remember, quite soon after I left the organisation I attended an interview and got the job without a scrap of chanting (one of my first successes without daimoku) and it was a wonderful feeling. The more I do this, the easier it gets to use logic and planning rather than the magical thinking, and the more independent I feel. When I think about the amount of chanting I used to feel that I had to do just to attend a meeting at work or have a normal conversation it reinforces how debilitating it was for me and how I created a prison for myself, with fear of what might happen if I didn't chant.

I can also relate to what you were saying about your friend attributing your success to chanting. I still have a couple of very dear friends who I want to keep in touch with and a very loved close member of my family, who are all heavily involved in the organisation and I do find that they will still talk to me about the benefits of chanting or how they are trying to tie a goal that they want to an ongoing SGI campaign. I find this very difficult to respond to as I have already explained how I don't want to be in SGI, how when I was in it I ended up feeling suicidal and how I am much happier now I am out of the organisation. I don't want to keep repeating myself but I think I am going to have to be a bit more clear as they don't seem to be getting the message. It makes me feel that they are still trying to plant seeds in the hope that I will come back - but it aint happening.

Holly_golightly, fortunately, the couple of friends I have that are still in the org are generally pretty respectful of my wish not to discuss the organization - it's the primary force driving their lives, though, and of course the topic comes up. When I first made the decision, they tried to talk me out of it, but when I made it clear that my decision was final they backed off on it. I do get the sense sometimes that the woman who sb'd me is kind of waiting for something bad to happen to me so that she can say "hah! You stopped practicing and that's why your life has turned to crap" but I may be misjudging her. That remains to be seen. When she starts nattering on about all of her so-called benefits, I generally remain silent or try to change the subject. There seems to be no point in arguing or defending my position . . . when it comes to sgi, all of the slippery logic, superstition and other attributes of die-hard members block their ears and they are not capable of understanding what I'm saying. They cannot hear it. And I know too well myself that as recently as a couple of months ago, I would've been the same way in terms of hearing anything critical about the entire Cousin Rufus Circus.

And the liberation and empowerment of owning our own successes (and even failures) is amazing. The idea that "taking responsibility" by chanting for an outcome is twisted and silly; I don't believe any more that chanting "enough" will have any influence over anything, other than draining time and energy away from taking practical action. What the hell is "enough," anyway? I guess it means that you chant yourself into a mental space where you believe that however something turns out, the mystic law has something to do with it. If the desired outcome occurs, you're a good little zombie - if you don't get what you want, it means either your practice is weak or that you're being protected from something you aren't aware of (but you still better chant more, study harder, make that connection with the Great Oz). There's no getting away from it. All good is attributed to the mystic law, anything negative is because you are defective in some way. It's absolutely no different from Christian beliefs where you're punished by a deity for being naughty. It's crippling.

In "Women Who Run With the Wolves," Clara Pincolla-Estes discusses the need we have to find our pack, and how we can run from pillar to post trying to find a group where we feel comfortable, safe and an appreciated member of the pack. Sgi is extraordinarily clever in helping us to feel that way . . . they have figured out how to shape-shift into what we think we need them to be. It seems easy at first . . . those little bits of ourselves (the ones who are warning us that this may not be such a great idea) are easily silenced, because we are encouraged to discuss our tribulations with leaders who, of course, can explain those doubts away. We trust them - they tell us their lives are so much better than they were before they started practicing; we believe them of course . . . they are convincing because their belief in the truth of what they're saying is unshakable. That's how you become a leader. I honestly believe that the leaders, on a local level at least, absolutely believe every word they say; I don't think there's an ounce of deliberate deception on their parts. If they're acting, then Hollywood is overlooking a large pool of very talented people.

It's endemic . . . not just as far as sgi is concerned, but in so many human groups - my former in-laws (who were catholic) despised me because I was not. Think of almost anyplace you've worked, and you'll recognize that same company-line thinking - those employees who accept everything their company does no matter how egregious. Group-think is every-freaking-where. I've usually recognized it in other places, but was completely blind to it when I was a member of sgi. Now I'm even more acutely aware of it in places I never thought about before. Those people who will only shop at Whole Foods, vegans, colonic-addicts . . . they're all selectively choosing which flavor of bull-cookies (love that expression) is their favorite and buying into it, finding evidence to support the superiority that they believe is attached to their particular flavor. Since it's human nature for us to be a part of a group, the best we can do is to find a pack that supports us as we are and doesn't encourage us into unhealthy behavior.

Hang tough. The thing that we are ultimately responsible for is our own happiness. Although we can try to be respectful of the beliefs of others, we are entitled to the same respect and it's up to us to set the boundaries. If someone was carrying on a conversation on any other topic, you might feel okay with saying "ew, I really don't want to talk about that"; we've been so bullied by das org, though, that that isn't acceptable when it comes to discussing sgi. It is acceptable. You don't have to be angry or nasty about it, and you don't need to defend your position. I know that you value these people, but they need to understand your value as a person, too. They wouldn't ear-bang someone at work about that stuff, and they don't have a right to force a conversation in a direction you aren't comfortable with!

Just some random points that I wanted to add my own thoughts to:

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meh
It's funny - my son did come to a new year's day krg with me; he's a stone atheist, but came because it was also my birthday and he knew it would mean a lot. I dragged him out right after gongyo - I was too embarrassed for him to see the circus that was upcoming. Maybe that's when the veil actually started thinning for me a bit, seeing it a bit through his skeptical eyes.

I can relate to so much of what you are and have been saying. I was always embarrassed to have any of my friends actually see, much less attend, a cult org. meeting. I had no problem telling anyone I was a "buddhist" (or so I thought at the time), but for me to share what actually was going on . . . . . I was very hesitant.

Just like you said, deep down, I too, knew it was part freak show & circus.

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holly_golightly
I remember, quite soon after I left the organisation I attended an interview and got the job without a scrap of chanting (one of my first successes without daimoku) and it was a wonderful feeling. The more I do this, the easier it gets to use logic and planning rather than the magical thinking, and the more independent I feel. When I think about the amount of chanting I used to feel that I had to do just to attend a meeting at work or have a normal conversation it reinforces how debilitating it was for me and how I created a prison for myself, with fear of what might happen if I didn't chant.

This is one of the most insidious things about the gakkai cult org.. It imperceptibly takes over and starts to control your life, where everything you do or don't accomplish, is no longer your "own." The gakkai cult has programmed into members' heads, the default doublethink position that they MUST have the help, permission, and blessing of the cult org. for any and everything that happens in their life.

"It allows you to own your successes . . . " (as the cult vendor says at the 0:26 sec. mark [www.youtube.com]) --> No, it tricks you to think that you "own" them. You don't. The cult org. does. And the cult org. will use that fear and addiction to pull the cult shackles, that you aren't aware of, tied to your limbs, just like a marionette puppet.

Members become so dependent on others thinking for them and are regressed back to being like a child, paralyzed by fear and uncertainty, needing the "guidance" (cult speak) on what to do next. Chant, work for Cousin Rufus, go to the cult org. "leaders" for guidance, chant some more, work some more for Cousin Rufus, get more "guidance", . . . . ad lib and repeat as necessary until you "magically" get what you wanted (or not, in which case the "guidance" will be changed accordingly to spin and explain it away).

I equate the whole process to this clip [www.youtube.com]. The Oracle Addiction. In the case of the gakkai cult org., the oracles are the magic paper, Cousin Rufus and cult org. "leaders" (big & small).

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meh
Although we can try to be respectful of the beliefs of others, we are entitled to the same respect and it's up to us to set the boundaries. If someone was carrying on a conversation on any other topic, you might feel okay with saying "ew, I really don't want to talk about that"; we've been so bullied by das org, though, that that isn't acceptable when it comes to discussing sgi. It is acceptable. You don't have to be angry or nasty about it, and you don't need to defend your position. I know that you value these people, but they need to understand your value as a person, too. They wouldn't ear-bang someone at work about that stuff, and they don't have a right to force a conversation in a direction you aren't comfortable with!

Agreed, 100%.

I surpassed my tolerance threshold with the gakkai cult org., long, long ago. I like your phrase about being "bullied." Spot-on description.

So much of what you say, I agree with wholeheartedly and strongly so.


- Hitch

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holly_golightly
When I think about the amount of chanting I used to feel that I had to do just to attend a meeting at work or have a normal conversation it reinforces how debilitating it was for me and how I created a prison for myself, with fear of what might happen if I didn't chant.

Quoted again, for truth.

And it's entirely self created. Therefore, one can also break it down and escape from it, oneself, too.

Perfect summary of the gakkai cult org., "holly_golightly." Perfect.



- Hitch