Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
tsukimoto
()
Date: April 15, 2010 08:47AM
Barbara's Buddhism Blog has had two good articles on SGI -- one on the Ikeda-King-Gandhi exhibit and the other on naming the park gate after Ikeda.
In her article on the Ikeda-King Gandhi exhibit, she asks the same question that many of us have -- how can you compare Ikeda to Gandhi and Dr. King?
-----------------------Beginning of Quote, Barbara's Buddhism Blog----------------------------
Barbara O'Brien: "If you're struggling to place Daisaku Ikeda: He is the president of Soka Gakkai International (SGI), a lay Nichiren Buddhist organization. I'm sure he's a nice fella, and I'm aware that he has directed SGI into doing a lot of good work. But does he belong in the same league with Gandhi and King? I'd like to give SGI members a chance to explain why he does. "
"[buddhism.about.com]
------------------------------End of Quote-----------------------------------------------------
Response #25, from "Luisa," who says she is a psychotherapist, is interesting because it reflects the way a lot of SGI members and leaders argue.
--------------------Beginning of Quote, Barbara's Buddhism Blog----------------------------
Luisa: "Barbara, All these negative remarks about President Ikeda are off the mark. They are fear based and inaccurate.
As a Soka Gakai Buddhist and psychotherapist SGI Buddhism does not confuse Buddhism and Psychology.
President Ikeda is honored per se by members because he sees us and we see us as no lesser capacity than he or Nichiren Daishonin or Shakyamuni Buddha. We are hence no lesser than and of no less capacity I say.
The proof is that one by one each of us are in fact transforming our lives home, work and environments slowly but surely and are trully becoming happy individuals. Ultimately this is the purpose to attain fulfillement create value that is what Soka means create value.
I am sure by reading these comments above that none of these individuals who have commented negatively about the SGI or President Ikeda have ever spent a moment in reading about the history of our movement nor have they read any of President Ikeda’s writings. That we can and will and do overcome the four sufferings in life as described by Shakyamuni Buddha to attain absoulute happines is proof enough and will continue to be. Thank you! With My Deep Respect and Appreciation for these comments,
people are stirring and I am not surprised, freedom at the same time is most empowering as well as can create fear."
-----------------------End of quote------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Luisa mentions fear at the beginning and end of her comments. Why? I didn't find anything about fear in Barbara's piece, nor in the preceding 24 comments. People were just asking what exactly Ikeda has done that would make him the equal of Gandhi and Dr. King. How is that fearful? This is a typical SGI argument. If you don't agree with them, you are blind, afraid, stubborn, or something uncomplimentary. SGI members often go for a personal attack of critics rather than having good arguments to rebut their critics.
And honestly, it's SGI that uses fear to manipulate people. Leaders tell members that their lives are going to fall apart if they leave or criticize SGI.
2. She says SGI Buddhism does not confuse Buddhism and psychology. Well, who said it did? The issue was what Ikeda has accomplished. Luisa is introducing a topic that is totally unrelated to this argument, and arguing against something that nobody said! This is also typical of SGI members when they are losing an argument. Let's throw in something totally irrelevant!
Luisa is the one who mentioned that critics of SGI are fearful, perhaps of freedom...it sounds as if SHE's the one confusing Buddhism and psychology. (Or she would be if SGI were actually Buddhism.)
3. Ikeda sees his followers as his equals? Then why is he the mentor and everyone else is supposed to be the disciples? SGI members ARE of no less capacity than Ikeda -- I agree with that, but does SGI actually teach and believe that? My experience is that it doesn't.
4. ALL the SGI members are transforming their lives for the better? Really? How in the world could she know what ALL the SGI members are doing?
Many of us have seen that a lot of members seem to be struggling with the same problems year after year. Many of us have noted that our friends and relatives who are still in SGI really don't appear to be any more successful, healthy or happy than nonmembers from similar backgrounds.
Some members actually seem to be held back by SGI. The amount of time that they spend on SGI activities keeps them from spending time improving their education, advancing in a career, or maintaining good family relationships. Many of us who have left have found that our lives are better for many reasons -- less guilt and manipulation, more time for the things and people that really matter to us.
5. Critics of SGI cannot possibly have read anything by him? Well, given his penchant for using ghostwriters, I don't know how much of his work I actually have read. :-) But again, Luisa is making assumptions and attacking. She can't possibly know how much any posters have read of Ikeda's work. Most sounded very knowledgeable, I thought. But as far as she's concerned, anyone who criticizes Ikeda is just ignorant. So typical of how SGI members attack critics. Does she realize that many of us don't think much of Ikeda because we HAVE read his writings? (Again, if the writings were even actually written by him, and not the ghostwriter.)
6. She says she has respect and appreciation for these comments. I don't know, so far this does not sound very respectful or appreciative to me.
She thanks Barbara for giving her the opportunity to tell SGI critics how ignorant and fearful they really are. Well, at least she's trying to be polite.
7. And that ending -- if you disagree with Ikeda, you must be afraid of freedom. And have a nice day!
And this woman says she's a psychotherapist? Please. This is an individual who makes huge assumptions about people she knows nothing about. She speaks of respect and yet insults anyone who disagrees with her. If you question her assumptions, she tells you that you are ignorant and fearful...if you weren't so dumb and fearful, you would love Ikeda as much as she does. I just hope that she can look at her clients' issues more clearly and objectively than this.
In her article on the Ikeda-King Gandhi exhibit, she asks the same question that many of us have -- how can you compare Ikeda to Gandhi and Dr. King?
-----------------------Beginning of Quote, Barbara's Buddhism Blog----------------------------
Barbara O'Brien: "If you're struggling to place Daisaku Ikeda: He is the president of Soka Gakkai International (SGI), a lay Nichiren Buddhist organization. I'm sure he's a nice fella, and I'm aware that he has directed SGI into doing a lot of good work. But does he belong in the same league with Gandhi and King? I'd like to give SGI members a chance to explain why he does. "
"[buddhism.about.com]
------------------------------End of Quote-----------------------------------------------------
Response #25, from "Luisa," who says she is a psychotherapist, is interesting because it reflects the way a lot of SGI members and leaders argue.
--------------------Beginning of Quote, Barbara's Buddhism Blog----------------------------
Luisa: "Barbara, All these negative remarks about President Ikeda are off the mark. They are fear based and inaccurate.
As a Soka Gakai Buddhist and psychotherapist SGI Buddhism does not confuse Buddhism and Psychology.
President Ikeda is honored per se by members because he sees us and we see us as no lesser capacity than he or Nichiren Daishonin or Shakyamuni Buddha. We are hence no lesser than and of no less capacity I say.
The proof is that one by one each of us are in fact transforming our lives home, work and environments slowly but surely and are trully becoming happy individuals. Ultimately this is the purpose to attain fulfillement create value that is what Soka means create value.
I am sure by reading these comments above that none of these individuals who have commented negatively about the SGI or President Ikeda have ever spent a moment in reading about the history of our movement nor have they read any of President Ikeda’s writings. That we can and will and do overcome the four sufferings in life as described by Shakyamuni Buddha to attain absoulute happines is proof enough and will continue to be. Thank you! With My Deep Respect and Appreciation for these comments,
people are stirring and I am not surprised, freedom at the same time is most empowering as well as can create fear."
-----------------------End of quote------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Luisa mentions fear at the beginning and end of her comments. Why? I didn't find anything about fear in Barbara's piece, nor in the preceding 24 comments. People were just asking what exactly Ikeda has done that would make him the equal of Gandhi and Dr. King. How is that fearful? This is a typical SGI argument. If you don't agree with them, you are blind, afraid, stubborn, or something uncomplimentary. SGI members often go for a personal attack of critics rather than having good arguments to rebut their critics.
And honestly, it's SGI that uses fear to manipulate people. Leaders tell members that their lives are going to fall apart if they leave or criticize SGI.
2. She says SGI Buddhism does not confuse Buddhism and psychology. Well, who said it did? The issue was what Ikeda has accomplished. Luisa is introducing a topic that is totally unrelated to this argument, and arguing against something that nobody said! This is also typical of SGI members when they are losing an argument. Let's throw in something totally irrelevant!
Luisa is the one who mentioned that critics of SGI are fearful, perhaps of freedom...it sounds as if SHE's the one confusing Buddhism and psychology. (Or she would be if SGI were actually Buddhism.)
3. Ikeda sees his followers as his equals? Then why is he the mentor and everyone else is supposed to be the disciples? SGI members ARE of no less capacity than Ikeda -- I agree with that, but does SGI actually teach and believe that? My experience is that it doesn't.
4. ALL the SGI members are transforming their lives for the better? Really? How in the world could she know what ALL the SGI members are doing?
Many of us have seen that a lot of members seem to be struggling with the same problems year after year. Many of us have noted that our friends and relatives who are still in SGI really don't appear to be any more successful, healthy or happy than nonmembers from similar backgrounds.
Some members actually seem to be held back by SGI. The amount of time that they spend on SGI activities keeps them from spending time improving their education, advancing in a career, or maintaining good family relationships. Many of us who have left have found that our lives are better for many reasons -- less guilt and manipulation, more time for the things and people that really matter to us.
5. Critics of SGI cannot possibly have read anything by him? Well, given his penchant for using ghostwriters, I don't know how much of his work I actually have read. :-) But again, Luisa is making assumptions and attacking. She can't possibly know how much any posters have read of Ikeda's work. Most sounded very knowledgeable, I thought. But as far as she's concerned, anyone who criticizes Ikeda is just ignorant. So typical of how SGI members attack critics. Does she realize that many of us don't think much of Ikeda because we HAVE read his writings? (Again, if the writings were even actually written by him, and not the ghostwriter.)
6. She says she has respect and appreciation for these comments. I don't know, so far this does not sound very respectful or appreciative to me.
She thanks Barbara for giving her the opportunity to tell SGI critics how ignorant and fearful they really are. Well, at least she's trying to be polite.
7. And that ending -- if you disagree with Ikeda, you must be afraid of freedom. And have a nice day!
And this woman says she's a psychotherapist? Please. This is an individual who makes huge assumptions about people she knows nothing about. She speaks of respect and yet insults anyone who disagrees with her. If you question her assumptions, she tells you that you are ignorant and fearful...if you weren't so dumb and fearful, you would love Ikeda as much as she does. I just hope that she can look at her clients' issues more clearly and objectively than this.
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
ScoobyDooby
()
Date: April 16, 2010 01:47AM
Thanks Tsukimoto, for your last post. I read the About blog several months ago and thought the very same things.
I rarely post here but I lurk a great deal. Even though the activity has slowed down quite a bit here in the last month or so (I hope everyone is well), I still find it beneficial as it pertains to my own situation.
"Some members actually seem to be held back by SGI. The amount of time that they spend on SGI activities keeps them from spending time improving their education, advancing in a career, or maintaining good family relationships. Many of us who have left have found that our lives are better for many reasons -- less guilt and manipulation, more time for the things and people that really matter to us."
This is my situation with my wife. As a 20+ year member, I'm losing hope that she'll ever come to the realization of how much her SGI activities has taken away from our kids and I over the years, let alone that it's a cult. As a long time member was it a gradual realization that there was something definately wrong with the SGI or was it a "light bulb" moment?
I rarely post here but I lurk a great deal. Even though the activity has slowed down quite a bit here in the last month or so (I hope everyone is well), I still find it beneficial as it pertains to my own situation.
"Some members actually seem to be held back by SGI. The amount of time that they spend on SGI activities keeps them from spending time improving their education, advancing in a career, or maintaining good family relationships. Many of us who have left have found that our lives are better for many reasons -- less guilt and manipulation, more time for the things and people that really matter to us."
This is my situation with my wife. As a 20+ year member, I'm losing hope that she'll ever come to the realization of how much her SGI activities has taken away from our kids and I over the years, let alone that it's a cult. As a long time member was it a gradual realization that there was something definately wrong with the SGI or was it a "light bulb" moment?
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
tsukimoto
()
Date: April 16, 2010 05:43AM
Quote
ScoobyDooby
This is my situation with my wife. As a 20+ year member, I'm losing hope that she'll ever come to the realization of how much her SGI activities has taken away from our kids and I over the years, let alone that it's a cult. As a long time member was it a gradual realization that there was something definately wrong with the SGI or was it a "light bulb" moment?
ScoobyDooby, interesting question. For me, it was actually a combination of gradual realization and two light-bulb moments. SGI can be very hard to get away from. I was discontent for years, and maybe I'd go to fewer meetings, or even stop chanting and going to meetings for a few weeks. Yet I couldn't make the decision to quit for good. The chanting seemed to relax me, and there were sometimes activities I liked, and members that I thought of as friends.
Even in the early years, there were things about SGI that seemed off to me. I remember getting ready to go to the Worcester Convention in the late 80's. Our leaders just had to mention that convention -- and the members would be cheering and all excited. It was like someone had pushed a button, and they all responded the same way. It just seemed weird! I also became tired of the fast pace. We had meetings and activities about five out of seven days of the week. I felt even then that SGI asked too much of us.
I think that my relationship with SGI was like a troubled marriage. Your spouse can irritate you, but you still love him. You tell yourself that everyone has faults; if you found someone else, he would probably irritate you sometimes too. Just how irritated do you have to be before you file for divorce?
The first light bulb moment was when I was on vacation, in the early 1990's. This was shortly after SGI's bitter split with Nichiren Shoshu. I was visiting a city that has a Nichiren Shoshu temple -- there isn't one near where I live. For some reason, I can't even explain why, I felt that I HAD to visit this temple. I did, and had an interesting discussion with a guy who was a Nichiren Shoshu member. I'd gone in very angry, and very pro-SGI...and yet this guy made excellent points and asked questions that I couldn't answer. I also felt, "He seems nice, honest, intelligent. We both read the gosho, and chant Nam myoho renge kyo to our Gohonzons. SGI would say he is either a traitor or a dupe. I don't think he is. Why do I have to slander a fellow believer?"
I went back home with lots of questions, and over the next couple of years questioned any leader I could find. None of them had good answers. I felt that the leadership of SGI was telling a lot of lies about Nichiren Shoshu and the reasons for the split. I quit SGI -- again.
You'd think that I could have made the decision and stuck to it. Well, people go back to cheating, drinking, abusive spouses, and I eventually went back to SGI. I distrusted the senior leadership, and would not contribute any money -- but I told myself, "Well, I know the local members; they're decent people. Can't I just chant and study with them? Shouldn't I try to improve SGI, rather than just quitting?"
Still, SGI's constant demands for more and more of my time irked me. SGI had also begun pushing "Mentor/Disciple" heavily. It made no sense to me. It contradicted everything that I'd read in the Goshos. I was also reading things online like the old Buddha Jones website, Fraught With Peril, and Nichiren's Coffeehouse...learning things that you never learn at SGI meetings.
I also realized that changing SGI is like yelling at the wind to stop blowing. You can yell all you want, it's not going to affect the wind.
I had one foot in SGI, one foot out, and then in 2006, I had a medical emergency. In desperation I called two SGI members, people that I thought were my friends...and they couldn't even be bothered to help me.
That was it. The lightbulb went on and stayed on. I think that the last thread holding me to SGI was the belief that I had friends there, and I didn't want to leave my friends, my community. My crisis -- and their cold, uncaring response to it, just snapped that thread. I finally saw the truth. The group didn't give a damn about me, unless they had something that they wanted me to do. When I finally realized that, I finally could walk away and stay away for good.
Scooby, was your wife an SGI member when you married her, or did she join after your marriage?
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
quiet one
()
Date: April 16, 2010 07:02AM
tsukimoto, you always have great responses!
I had a gradual realization that I needed to leave SGI. Even in the beginning, I had doubts about SGI (then NSA), but I guess what I found positive outweighed the negative.
A couple of months ago I ran into a friend at the store, and ended up having a long conversation with him. He is not a member, but his wife is. She is a hard-core member, and his sister is also. I guess that because I'm not a member anymore he opened up about SGI. He told me that he is becoming upset at his wife's practice. She is always leaving him alone because she is at meetings. Even when they are together and having a nice talk, the phone rings and she must go and talk on the phone to members or leaders, and end the conversation with him. He said that she is rarely there for their daughter. He seemed very sad about it! Then he started to talk about his sister. He had nothing nice to say about her and her relationships with the people in her life!
I have felt a significant improvement in my relationships with others since I have stopped practicing with SGI. My relationship with my husband, who was also a member, was not as good when we were with SGI. You'd think it would be the opposite, that we would be working toward the same cause and that we'd have the same social circle. But it seems to me that SGI affects all relationships in your life, with members and non-members.
I had a gradual realization that I needed to leave SGI. Even in the beginning, I had doubts about SGI (then NSA), but I guess what I found positive outweighed the negative.
Quote
ScoobyDooby
This is my situation with my wife. As a 20+ year member, I'm losing hope that she'll ever come to the realization of how much her SGI activities has taken away from our kids and I over the years, let alone that it's a cult.
A couple of months ago I ran into a friend at the store, and ended up having a long conversation with him. He is not a member, but his wife is. She is a hard-core member, and his sister is also. I guess that because I'm not a member anymore he opened up about SGI. He told me that he is becoming upset at his wife's practice. She is always leaving him alone because she is at meetings. Even when they are together and having a nice talk, the phone rings and she must go and talk on the phone to members or leaders, and end the conversation with him. He said that she is rarely there for their daughter. He seemed very sad about it! Then he started to talk about his sister. He had nothing nice to say about her and her relationships with the people in her life!
I have felt a significant improvement in my relationships with others since I have stopped practicing with SGI. My relationship with my husband, who was also a member, was not as good when we were with SGI. You'd think it would be the opposite, that we would be working toward the same cause and that we'd have the same social circle. But it seems to me that SGI affects all relationships in your life, with members and non-members.
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
DavidM
()
Date: April 16, 2010 07:33AM
Quote
ScoobyDooby
This is my situation with my wife. As a 20+ year member, I'm losing hope that she'll ever come to the realization of how much her SGI activities has taken away from our kids and I over the years, let alone that it's a cult. As a long time member was it a gradual realization that there was something definately wrong with the SGI or was it a "light bulb" moment?
I was the same as tsukimoto, a bit of both.
My 'practice' had been quite weak for a year or two, wasn't really involved much but still had the 'not chanting enough guilt.' By chance I met a member in my area and decided to go to a meeting. Everything was very nice and warm, the members in my area I would descibe as harmless and quaint.
I then started trying to introduce a friend to the practice. We chanted together and did a bit of study, they seemed happy but it actually made me realise how little I knew. I think its common for SGI members to throw a book at someone asking questions, I was certainly guilty of it.
So me and my friend had been going to meetings for a couple of months, but they said there was always something nagging the back of their mind, something they couldn't put their finger on. Then at one discussion meetings, a Japanese girl was saying how she was trying to shakabuku her friend, she said 'I don't understand why she can't take President Ikeda into her heart', even the 'life' members went quiet at this. I'm not sure if that was because they knew you just don't say things like that when theres a possible new member present, or wether they actually thought her zealotry was warped. Either way, after that my friend started researching SGI online, they didn't like what they found. My friend found this forum and challenged me to read it, it was only 130 pages back then :) .
At first when reading my brain threw up all the usual SGI conditioned responses, 'these are evil people trying to harm buddhism, 'these people are lying, 'its all the Japanese tabloids fault!', but as I read on and on something started to change inside me. I felt how sincere the people who were posting were, I just knew they were genuine. Once I had accepted that, I could look at the more objective criticism of SGI in a completey new light. It wasn't an easy process, I cried alot, became very withdrawn, in my confusion I came on here trying to defend SGI, but thanks to the people here I realised how rediculous and foolish that was.
Thankfully I was off work at the time so I just threw myself into reading and researching, I don't think I could have 'operated' normally, maybe that was my good karma. :)
Maybe things were different for me because my practice wasn't particularly strong when all of that happened, but I was still fundamentally defensive when it came to SGI, a part of my brain was switched off, I just couldn't see the wood for the trees.
I think for a lot of members who are 'getting by' ok in SGI, its like they're on board SGI Flight 111, they think President Ikeda is piloting, but its actually themselves simply on autopilot.
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
DavidM
()
Date: April 16, 2010 08:07AM
Sorry to double post but I've been quiet recently (had some worries) but I want to get some ideas off my chest.
I've noticed SGI seems to compound the idea of 'faith' in Nichiren Buddhism and 'faith' in the SGI. Faith, in a more abstract 'non-western' sense is important in Buddhism, even more so in Nichiren buddhism. You are supposed to have faith in the Lotus Sutra, faith in the Gohonzon, all well and good.
But the word is also used in a subtle way to mean have faith in the SGI. You are not ment to question, you are supposed to have faith that: your donations will not go to Japan but will pay for essentials in your own country, your leaders are good people and will always give you good advice, SGI is doing what is best for you, what SGI tells you with regards to study is correct - there is no need to research it for yourself, all other Nichiren sects are evil and worthless, President Ikeda is doing everything he can to help you.
I think this phenomenon is highly effective in slowly breaking you down whilst making you feel you have actually obtained more. To have a lack of faith in any way shows a 'poor life condition', which means you should read more of Ikeda's writings, get guidance from leaders, and... develop an indestructible faith.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2010 08:07AM by DavidM.
I've noticed SGI seems to compound the idea of 'faith' in Nichiren Buddhism and 'faith' in the SGI. Faith, in a more abstract 'non-western' sense is important in Buddhism, even more so in Nichiren buddhism. You are supposed to have faith in the Lotus Sutra, faith in the Gohonzon, all well and good.
But the word is also used in a subtle way to mean have faith in the SGI. You are not ment to question, you are supposed to have faith that: your donations will not go to Japan but will pay for essentials in your own country, your leaders are good people and will always give you good advice, SGI is doing what is best for you, what SGI tells you with regards to study is correct - there is no need to research it for yourself, all other Nichiren sects are evil and worthless, President Ikeda is doing everything he can to help you.
I think this phenomenon is highly effective in slowly breaking you down whilst making you feel you have actually obtained more. To have a lack of faith in any way shows a 'poor life condition', which means you should read more of Ikeda's writings, get guidance from leaders, and... develop an indestructible faith.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2010 08:07AM by DavidM.
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
Nichijew
()
Date: April 16, 2010 09:03AM
Quote
ScoobyDooby
Thanks Tsukimoto, for your last post. I read the About blog several months ago and thought the very same things.
I rarely post here but I lurk a great deal. Even though the activity has slowed down quite a bit here in the last month or so (I hope everyone is well), I still find it beneficial as it pertains to my own situation.
"Some members actually seem to be held back by SGI. The amount of time that they spend on SGI activities keeps them from spending time improving their education, advancing in a career, or maintaining good family relationships. Many of us who have left have found that our lives are better for many reasons -- less guilt and manipulation, more time for the things and people that really matter to us."
This is my situation with my wife. As a 20+ year member, I'm losing hope that she'll ever come to the realization of how much her SGI activities has taken away from our kids and I over the years, let alone that it's a cult. As a long time member was it a gradual realization that there was something definately wrong with the SGI or was it a "light bulb" moment?
Dear Scooby;
For me it was nagging thoughts and contradictions that would arise from time to time after about the second year of an off again on again twenty year practice with them. I believed in the Daimoku and the Gohonzon and thought that the SGI was the only game in town. Even after the split, I was so poisoned by them against the Nichiren Shoshu that I could never be a nichiren Shohu believer. then I got my excuse to leave, encountering believers from other sects that proved to my satisfaction that the faith and practice of the SGI is not what Nichiren Daishonin taught nor was it entirtely based on the Lotus Sutra.
You are in a very difficult situation with your wife because in an ultimatum, as things stand now, she will most probably side with the SGI. If you are chanting Nam Myoho renge kyo, you might study the Lotus Sutra and the commentaries of Nichiren Daishonin, comparing them to the teachings of the Soka Gakkai and very carefully pointing out to her the contradictions between what the Soka Gakkai teaches and what the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren teach. Like a grain of sand, an irritant to the oyster, a small doubt in your wife's mind in the SGI teachings, may eventually become a beautiful pearl of wisdom.
Mark
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
tsukimoto
()
Date: April 16, 2010 09:09AM
Quote
DavidM
My friend found this forum and challenged me to read it, it was only 130 pages back then :) .
At first when reading my brain threw up all the usual SGI conditioned responses, 'these are evil people trying to harm buddhism, 'these people are lying, 'its all the Japanese tabloids fault!', but as I read on and on something started to change inside me. I felt how sincere the people who were posting were, I just knew they were genuine. Once I had accepted that, I could look at the more objective criticism of SGI in a completey new light. It wasn't an easy process,
.
I know, I used to defend SGI too. I felt uncomfortable reading or hearing anything critical of the group. This, despite my own discomfort with many things in SGI. (or because of it?)
I think that there is something within us that knows when we're hearing the truth, and when we're hearing lies. I think that that was a big part of my discomfort with SGI. I knew that the leaders, fellow members, and publications were not telling me the truth...but I didn't WANT to know it. I didn't trust my own judgement, didn't want to give up the aspects of SGI that I still enjoyed, didn't want to admit that I'd given years of my life to the Daisaku Ikeda Fan Club. I wanted to believe that I could chant and get anything I wanted. I wanted to believe that I had this circle of caring friends.
If you are listening to lies, telling lies, wanting to believe lies....you will be angry at people who tell the truth. At least, at first. When I spoke with that young man at the temple, I was initially angry. As we spoke, I could feel his sincerity. Was he entirely right about the priesthood? Maybe, maybe not -- but I couldn't feel that he was totally wrong, as SGI would insist. I began to feel that the real truth of the SGI/NSA split was somewhere in the middle.
By the time I walked into the temple, maybe I was ready on some level to hear the truth. Why would I even go to the temple and talk to anyone, if I just wanted to stay in my little SGI bubble?
David, I think you were also ready to come out of your SGI bubble when you found us. If not, you probably wouldn't have read this thread. And really, we have had some SGI supporters, Commongirl and Brightstar, who read this thread and just thought we were a bunch of whiners and troublemakers.
There's an old cliche, "When the student is ready, the teacher appears." I used to think, "Yeah, right." Now I'm thinking that there might be some truth to that. Some of us learn slower than others...we get it when we get it.
SGI has talked for years about "substituting faith for wisdom." I thought at first that this was a good thing. It meant that I didn't have to be a brilliant scholar of Buddhism to practice it and get benefit from it. Lately, it seems more ominous to me -- "Don't think, don't reason, don't study or ask questions -- just have faith that your leaders know what is good for you."
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
wakatta1
()
Date: April 16, 2010 10:12AM
All,
I can relate to folks stories of their final days with NSA/SGI, and although I can't directly tie their experiences into what I went through just prior to my "ULTIMATE TAITAN" - the underlying struggle was similar on several counts.
Consider this: You have an organization that you have trusted for as long as you can remember and have always felt that it was an anchor in your life. Through various hardships you endured and struggled to overcome problems, in many cases involving those around you which you *should have* given greater regard simply because of their connection with you - but you instead "trusted sensei". You burned many bridges on the way to "enlightenment" believing that somehow the organization's vision was clearer than yours.
Then one day you come to discover that this "great friend" has turned out to be far different than what you had ever imagined (in a bad way). Judging from it's actions - Money and power clearly was what it valued most and much if not all of what you had believed in and trusted in it turned out to be nothing but great sounding words. The Japanese say: Kangen wa gujin no yorokobasu - sweet words are a fool's delight - and you are shocked with the realization of how you have been led on. Concepts such as the "lifeblood of buddhism", boddhisattva's of the earth, the three great secret laws, etc. etc. turn out to be purely "negotiable" by the organizations "leadership" and their justifications and hyperbole prove all to be hollow. Even the "great object of worship" suddenly can be put in an xerox machine and mass produced for the sake of increasing the organizations quarterly profits and magazine circulation. How frightening and disorienting is that!
In my case however the tuteledge of the 'Gakkai actually ended turning on itself, and basically it proved to be the very basis for discarding the practice. As Nichiren told his disciples as they prepared for a great debate - "the teaching is to be given great respect, and it will be judged by the quality of the lives of those who defend it". Listening and reading the hyperbole of the Gakkai as they split with and spit on the temple was very liberating. What honorable goal was being pursued when it involved reversing the very critical tenets that bound the faith together. Something was very rotten in denmark (er... Japan). Slanders were flying one way and the other, what life condition was that other than Chikushou?
Thankfully, I realized then I was not only in the wrong pew, but in the wrong church and in the wrong state, and I got out shortly thereafter.
I recall reading in one of the gosho's - nichiren likened faith to endurance - so much of what people are attributing to their "acting too late" and regretting what was done for that kind of faith, and I personally cannot see criticizing oneself for emulating such a thing, but instead suggest that in the future more care is applied to ensure that the "endurance" is for the right cause. Clearly, giving the practice the "benefit of the doubt" is far purer than the cynical measures that SGI took in the past to protect it's steady flow of member's donations.
To go even a bit further with it, much of what I absorbed from my early experiences with Nichiren's teaching still remains intact today with me and continues to give me good stead. It is just that the organization of SGI and the people influenced by that organization had fallen far, far short of its mark, and it did that at the cost of its credibility in my heart.
So for anyone who has gotten out, good for you - but please don't beat yourself up second-guessing how quickly you "should" have figured it all out. Remember, you were in a cult and the greatest triumph with that is in simply getting clear from it fully.
Wakatta
I can relate to folks stories of their final days with NSA/SGI, and although I can't directly tie their experiences into what I went through just prior to my "ULTIMATE TAITAN" - the underlying struggle was similar on several counts.
Consider this: You have an organization that you have trusted for as long as you can remember and have always felt that it was an anchor in your life. Through various hardships you endured and struggled to overcome problems, in many cases involving those around you which you *should have* given greater regard simply because of their connection with you - but you instead "trusted sensei". You burned many bridges on the way to "enlightenment" believing that somehow the organization's vision was clearer than yours.
Then one day you come to discover that this "great friend" has turned out to be far different than what you had ever imagined (in a bad way). Judging from it's actions - Money and power clearly was what it valued most and much if not all of what you had believed in and trusted in it turned out to be nothing but great sounding words. The Japanese say: Kangen wa gujin no yorokobasu - sweet words are a fool's delight - and you are shocked with the realization of how you have been led on. Concepts such as the "lifeblood of buddhism", boddhisattva's of the earth, the three great secret laws, etc. etc. turn out to be purely "negotiable" by the organizations "leadership" and their justifications and hyperbole prove all to be hollow. Even the "great object of worship" suddenly can be put in an xerox machine and mass produced for the sake of increasing the organizations quarterly profits and magazine circulation. How frightening and disorienting is that!
In my case however the tuteledge of the 'Gakkai actually ended turning on itself, and basically it proved to be the very basis for discarding the practice. As Nichiren told his disciples as they prepared for a great debate - "the teaching is to be given great respect, and it will be judged by the quality of the lives of those who defend it". Listening and reading the hyperbole of the Gakkai as they split with and spit on the temple was very liberating. What honorable goal was being pursued when it involved reversing the very critical tenets that bound the faith together. Something was very rotten in denmark (er... Japan). Slanders were flying one way and the other, what life condition was that other than Chikushou?
Thankfully, I realized then I was not only in the wrong pew, but in the wrong church and in the wrong state, and I got out shortly thereafter.
I recall reading in one of the gosho's - nichiren likened faith to endurance - so much of what people are attributing to their "acting too late" and regretting what was done for that kind of faith, and I personally cannot see criticizing oneself for emulating such a thing, but instead suggest that in the future more care is applied to ensure that the "endurance" is for the right cause. Clearly, giving the practice the "benefit of the doubt" is far purer than the cynical measures that SGI took in the past to protect it's steady flow of member's donations.
To go even a bit further with it, much of what I absorbed from my early experiences with Nichiren's teaching still remains intact today with me and continues to give me good stead. It is just that the organization of SGI and the people influenced by that organization had fallen far, far short of its mark, and it did that at the cost of its credibility in my heart.
So for anyone who has gotten out, good for you - but please don't beat yourself up second-guessing how quickly you "should" have figured it all out. Remember, you were in a cult and the greatest triumph with that is in simply getting clear from it fully.
Wakatta
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
rattyboy
()
Date: April 16, 2010 08:24PM
During a brief escape from SGI during the height of the 'priesthood issue' in the early '90s, I was giving some members my reasons why I didn't want to practice. The several reasons I listed, similar to the many reasons posted in this forum, were ignored. Even a close friend was insisting I was having a problem with the issue of the split with the priesthood. I would be approached for guidance because of my issue with the split. I had not mentioned the 'temple issue' but felt like they were corralling me into one cause they could control even as they were losing control. I noticed more comments about members. "They're having a problem with the priesthood issue and need to chant about it". It's like when they pull the 'Devadatta card' when there is dissent. Never mind your reasons, you are this symbolic evil right now. Luckily, Devadatta changes and you can too! Yay! (claps).
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.