Quote
tsukimoto
Does anyone know what's going on with the SGIUnofficial message board? When I try to look at messages there, I keep getting a page that says it's temporarily unavailable. It's been this way for several days.

Go through the back door. Try and type in Sokagakkaiunofficial on Google search.

Nichijew

Thanks, Nichijew -- that worked!

I especially liked this message on the SGIUnofficial board. This was my experience in SGI too. If I ever had a question about something SGI did or said, the leaders inevitably took it as an attack on SGI --- when sometimes, all I really wanted was more information.

-------------------Beginning of Quote, SGI Unofficial Board-------------------------------------

SokaGakkaiUnofficial, Message #99738

Whenever I had a question for or issue with Soka
Gakkai; it was always taken as a challenge. Then, whatever leader or person I
spoke with tried to adduce my motives. Either that, or I was told it was not
important. If I raised this problem of miscommunication; I was told it was my
problem, that something about me caused this confusion.

I finally figured out that the purpose of the organization was to promote the
current campaign, to unite firmly behind achieving Daisaku Ikeda's goals. Any
question or issue that did mot contribute to the campaign was a problem. The
purpose of guidance was to push the person's buttons and get them on board with
the campaign. That is meaning of listening to members and figuring out what they
desire. That I generally wanted a straight answer to a question just did not
compute.

For a while, I tried to serve as a leader in the way they wanted; as a promoter
of the campaigns. The members' needs and wants only mattered to the extent I
could use these to get them to cooperate. This went against my grain.
--------------------------------------End of Quote-----------------------------------------------
Contrast this with Ikeda's "Daily Guidance" for March 18 (from the SGI-USA Website.)

----------------------------------Beginning of Quote, SGI-USA Website----------------------

Daily Encouragement by Daisaku Ikeda
Thursday, March 18, 2010

Let us do our utmost to sustain the wonderfully warm atmosphere of the SGI-an atmosphere where members feel free to discuss whatever is on their minds. Unless we do so, our organization will stop growing, stop developing. The SGI is a world of humanity-of the heart, of faith, of compassion. It is a world of unity and mutual inspiration. That is why it is strong. If we continue to value and promote these qualities, the SGI will continue to grow and develop forever. I want to declare here and now the atmosphere where we can discuss anything is fundamental to the SGI.
--------------------------------End of Quote------------------------------------------------

It's as if the first quote and the second quote are talking about two completely different organizations -- and actually, they are. The first quote discusses the real SGI, and the second describes a fantasy SGI that never existed -- and never will.

Oh, you go to your first meeting and the leaders and other members tell you that SGI exists for YOU to become happy and achieve YOUR goals -- not someone else's. They'll quote the Gosho about all the different kinds of flowers, how they're all different but all beautiful.

It sounds lovely, and it's just so false. The first writer nailed it: SGI exists to achieve IKEDA's goals. Leaders will pretend interest in your goals -- to push your buttons, to get you to think that supporting SGI's/Ikeda's goals will get you closer to your own goals....become one with the organization, with the guru.

The truth? Supporting Ikeda's goals will most likely take you further from your own goals, and SGI appears to have unity only because anyone who disagrees is pressured and ends up either leaving or shutting up.

Try to discuss THAT at a meeting and see how far you get.

SokaGakkaiUnofficial, Message #99738

Whenever I had a question for or issue with Soka
Gakkai; it was always taken as a challenge. Then, whatever leader or person I
spoke with tried to adduce my motives. Either that, or I was told it was not
important. If I raised this problem of miscommunication; I was told it was my
problem, that something about me caused this confusion.

I finally figured out that the purpose of the organization was to promote the
current campaign, to unite firmly behind achieving Daisaku Ikeda's goals. Any
question or issue that did not contribute to the campaign was a problem.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ikeda on SGI: " It is a world of unity and mutual inspiration. "

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was thinking about these messages -- and then I picked up the book "Controlling People," by Patricia Evans, who writes about abusive relationships. I read the back cover -- and gasped:

"Does this sound like someone you know?

--Always needs to be right

--Tells you who you are and what you think

--Implies that you are wrong or inadequate when you don't agree

--Feels attacked when questioned

--Doesn't seem to really hear or see you"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When I was in SGI, I always HATED getting guidance! The few times I did go for guidance, it was exactly as Evans describes. I've had guidance from different leaders, but the guidance always felt identical, no matter who gave it. Men, women, Japanese, white, black, young, old -- it didn't matter.

The leaders/SGI always had to be right, assumed that they knew who I was and what I thought, implied that I was wrong if I didn't agree, felt that I was attacking them/SGI when I disagreed --- and could never hear me, or understand my concerns at all.

Evans, at least in this book, was writing more about marriage, dating relationships and occasionally parent-child relationships -- but I think that what she writes is also applicable to cults, especially the idea of a psychic boundary.

This boundary is your sense of identity -- who you think you are, who you want to be, your talents, interests, values, goals, dreams, ideas, experiences, wishes, likes, dislikes, memories. Evans writes:

"Without a psychic boundary, we would be like drops of ink diffused in a pool of water--easily absorbable into other people's definitions of us, even other people's purposes. We would come to believe that they are our own, without even realizing it."

Which is exactly what SGI wants from its members. Leaders expect members to be constantly available to do a lot of unpaid busywork for the organization. Former members have posted in this thread about how they were pressured to do SGI activities at the expense of education, career goals or family relationships. Members have been manipulated to donate their emergency fund to SGI's Zaimu campaigns. Male members have been pressured to shave their beards to conform with SGI's idea of what men's division/young men's division members should look like. Young women's division members were pressured not to live with boyfriends because that wasn't the image that SGI wanted to show potential members. Gay members were told to chant to become heterosexual (until SGI figured that it was to SGI's advantage to accept gay members.)

If an SGI member has something they want to change, what will leaders say? Throw yourself into SGI activities -- you can only reach YOUR goal by working for SGI's....which is totally illogical, but serves to make members feel that they and SGI are one. "Unity" sounds like a good thing, doesn't it? The problem is, SGI's (or an abusive person's) idea of unity can be very damaging and dangerous. In this kind of unity, you become one with a person or group -- by sacrificing yourself for them, giving up anything that they don't like, no matter how important it is to you. The sacrificing only goes one way -- the abusive person or group does not have to give up anything for you.

An abusive group, parent or partner cannot accept that you may have different goals, tastes, desires, opinions than he/she/it does. You are supposed to be one with him/her/the group --- think, feel and want what they do --- and put NOTHING ahead of them.

To Ikeda and many SGI leaders, SGI members are simply one with Ikeda and the org. Oh, members can be different in terms of race, nationality, gay, straight -- in fact, that's a plus because it makes the organization look "diverse" and "politically correct" -- so long as members are unified in believing that Ikeda and SGI's actions are always right. There can be no diversity tolerated on THOSE points.

It's a very fake and poisonous unity, Daisaku. Inspiring for you, maybe, but not for anyone else.

dear All:

Man, its quiet around here so I thought I'd liven things up with the latest SGI tome, A Toynbee Analysis of the Fuji School. You may download and read it here:

[docs.google.com]

It is a self serving analysis based on Gakkai self importance and propaganda [World of Anger according to Buddhism]. Don't act surprised but it is not based on the Lotus Sutra and the teachings of Nichiren Daishonin and therefore, it is not based on The World of Buddhahood. Fortunately, there exists the Kempon Hokke to right the wrongs of this ornate rhetoric and meaningless talk [in light of the True Teachings]. E-mail me if you have any questions:

Illarraza@yahoo.com.

May Namu Myoho renge kyo and the Gohonzon for the Transmission of the Dharma spread throughout the world.

nichijew



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/2010 01:09AM by Nichijew.

I miss you guys! Where is everyone?

Well, it's been about a year now since I started to think that I was about to leave SGI, and my attendance at meetings dwindled. It took a few more months to make the final severance! My life has changed so much.

A while ago we all told about our lives since leaving SGI, as suggested by Dr.JesusEsq. I would like to brag about the latest thing I've done. Actually, it started about 1 year ago, as I was exiting SGI. I received a notification that a book was going to be published by my professional organization. The book was to contain chapters written by individual members. So I wrote and submitted an article. It was accepted to be a part of this book! The book is about to be released. As a member of SGI, it is very doubtful that I would have had the time, energy, or confidence to do something like this.

Please, write! This forum has been very helpful to me, as I'm sure it has been to others, also!

Quiet One, congratulations on the article! That's great!

Our thread has seemed to be going through a lull...it's had busy and slow periods since we began it in July 2008. Back then, I'd never have guessed that it would grow to 156 pages. I didn't expect it to go past ten. There was more to say about SGI than I thought....and more people out there who have concerns about it than I realized.

We've gotten some great information and experiences on this thread. I've learned and felt very supported, reading other people's posts.

Quote
quiet one
I miss you guys! Where is everyone?

Well, it's been about a year now since I started to think that I was about to leave SGI, and my attendance at meetings dwindled. It took a few more months to make the final severance! My life has changed so much.

[...]

Please, write! This forum has been very helpful to me, as I'm sure it has been to others, also!

Okay, you twisted my arm :^).

I am so glad to hear you are becoming comfortable with how your life has proceeded. After a time all the worries about the "bad ju-ju" from leaving SGI reveals itself to just be the typical SGI mind-feint. Live on and enjoy!

Just to stir some further discussion, onething that repeatedly bothered me a lot when I practiced was the loneliness. Sure I was surrounded by members who were chanting intentedly to their "happiness machines" for their "heart's desire", but aside for administrative or faith-based activities, there was very little in the way of "fellowship". Frankly, throughout my long practice there were maybe two people who showed what I perceived as genuine concern, the rest of the folks were too intent on either "improving their practice", doing onshitsu to other members or trying to emulate some sort of "shin'ichi yamamoto" type of persona.

If you said "lets be real here..." folks would either retreat behind their masks, or throw up an ink-cloud of quotations from "sensei", the world tribune or the seikyo times. The only time you could depend upon folks to be seeking you out was when there was some sort of movement or to collect zaimu or other money sources.

And as a "senior leader" I was urged to show my members an "unshakable spirit" and a "strong conviction to accomplish kosen-rufu". This is great on paper. In reality I had my struggles too. At the upper levels there were few who even cared to relate to one another, and often in discussion things turned into "guidance" and a half-hour of canned speeches.

Can anyone relate to that?

Wakatta1

Quote
wakatta1

Just to stir some further discussion, onething that repeatedly bothered me a lot when I practiced was the loneliness. Sure I was surrounded by members who were chanting intentedly to their "happiness machines" for their "heart's desire", but aside for administrative or faith-based activities, there was very little in the way of "fellowship". Frankly, throughout my long practice there were maybe two people who showed what I perceived as genuine concern, the rest of the folks were too intent on either "improving their practice", doing onshitsu to other members or trying to emulate some sort of "shin'ichi yamamoto" type of persona.

If you said "lets be real here..." folks would either retreat behind their masks, or throw up an ink-cloud of quotations from "sensei", the world tribune or the seikyo times.

At the upper levels there were few who even cared to relate to one another, and often in discussion things turned into "guidance" and a half-hour of canned speeches.

Can anyone relate to that?

Wakatta1

Wakatta, that sounds just so familiar! I was spending a lot of time with SGI people; they were always calling me -- but it was always about SGI. We were either planning some activity, at some activity, or chanting. Any discussion always seemed to turn into guidance, or as you say, canned speeches, talk of how wonderful Ikeda was, or quotes from the publications. Or, patting ourselves on the back -- how wonderful we were to be practicing this Buddhism, and bringing about world peace! We really couldn't seem to talk about anything else for long. Why? Were we really that programmed?

Members didn't seem to call eachother just to chat, or get together for coffee or a beer. I must say, I was as guilty of this as anyone else. I can complain that other people didn't call me for anything other than SGI matters -- but I didn't call them either. Why didn't I?

Members would gush over other members at meetings. It often felt phony and forced to me. A while back, a women's division member left a very warm message on my answering machine -- "Oh, I've been thinking of you, I miss you, please call me, yadda yadda."

I thought, "Miss me? I have not attended a meeting in more than three years. You've only just noticed that I haven't been around? If you actually MISSED me, you would have called me before this!" Why would someone call and say that they miss you, when they obviously didn't? I deleted the message and did not call her back.

Any thoughts on WHY there is so little real fellowship and friendship in SGI?

Is it that members are so programmed to focus on Ikeda that they can barely see eachother? Does the organization deliberately keep people so busy that they just don't have the energy for much besides SGI?

Is it that a lot of things that SGI says and pushes are just so phony -- that that phoniness carries over into the members' relationships with eachother? Just this whole mentor-disciple relationship -- Ikeda as your fantasy father, big brother, friend, Santa Claus -- seems incredibly bizarre to me. You're supposed to think of someone you've never met as your closest friend. It seems an odd and dangerous fantasy.

Do SGI's teachings just encourage members to think only of themselves, and to think of other people as means to an end?

Do most SGI members know, on some level, that SGI's promises are illusions -- and that if they start speaking honestly and being real with each other --- all the SGI-created illusions are going to start falling down like dominoes?

Or is it something else?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2010 11:22AM by tsukimoto.

I remember many members weren't trained as to how to create that fellowship kind of bond with each other. Old school members in Japan often felt frustrated by the neglect they saw from the leaders. The old timers wanted them to call and simply say hello, maybe meet to talk, chant. No ulterior motives, just friendship.

Like you said there could be millions of reasons why some members are really bad at caring about fellow members. Are they selfish? Do they not care? do they have poor interpersonal relational skills? I can understand that there are some bad seeds in the bunch, but I am concerned over the sheer magnitude of bad seeds.

@Tsukimoto

All excellent points.

In retrospect it seems that the motivators used by the organization, along with the examples set by the upper leadership may have a role in this. Members were encouraged to chant for 'things' and to focus intentedly on achieving this goal or another. At the core of the practice was one member and one gohonzon and nothing else except the "teacher". There was no in depth discourse and if a person asked "too many questions" it was an indicator of having weak faith.

I often wondered why NSA/SGI relationships were superficial but when there is nothing in your life besides the thing or goal you are chanting for, and the "object of worship" you are in a closed system. There are a lot of volvo owners, and there are volvo groups, however everyone who is involved is there because of their volvo and not to 'share the experience' with the other volvo owners. It seems to be a private and insular thing. You go to the volvo group meetings to find out about the volvo, not about the inconsequential life of Bill Smith, volvo owner from Pittsburg. You meet Bill at conferences, shake his hand, but there is no reason (nor are you encouraged by the volvo owner's association) to form a relationship or to have fellowship.

Multiply that by a million and you wind up with an army of disconnected people, linked only by the organizations dogma. Individual members had no value, they were just foot-soldiers in Ikeda's army. Only ask "safe" questions and for goodness sake, don't question the dogma

Leader: "Any other questions?"
Member: "Yeah, why is Ikeda any more special than anyone else here in NSA/SGI?"
Leader: "You mean 'Sensei'? It's because he is 'Sensei' is why. He is the master and we are the disciples under the principal of 'Fusion of master and disciple'"
Member: "Yeah, but suppose I don't believe in all that... what has he done for me that would set him apart..."
Leader: "If you chanted more you would understand. Instead your doubts are making you subject to Sansho Shima" and are getting caught up in 'esho funi'.
Member: "But besides writing the same tired articles in WT and ST, what does he do?"
Leader: "I'll tell you - he fights tirelessly for kosen rufu and defends the one true law. Every day he chants for us all..."
Member: "Yeah but wasn't he at the center of the split with the temple and got our organization excommunicated? What was with all that"
Leader: "That happened because in his heartfelt leadership he felt he needed to return us to the pure source of true buddhism and to break with the heretical temple (turns and spits on the floor). We need to only trust Sensei, trust sensei... (pauses) - okay everyone, lets move off this subject and do sansho and finish with forever sensei"
Member: "But...." (closest WD member scowls at the member to let them know they should zip it now)
District chief: "Ay Ay Oh! Ay Ay Oh! Shakubuku shakubuku all the way!!!! <applause>"

The point above is that the superficial "pat" answers straight out of ST and WT were simply shields to hide behind. The member gets frustrated, the other members either resolve not to ask questions or tsk-tsk that someone would ask say such outrageous things. In the end the lesson is made that "heart to heart" communications doesn't exist here, and certainly the unempowered leader in the example wasn't going to risk inserting his own take on things but instead mouthed the party line. In the end the member gets the message that they don't matter.

Wakatta1



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2010 05:59PM by wakatta1.