Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
tsukimoto
()
Date: August 19, 2009 03:43AM
Quote
tsukimoto
Wakatta, I was not in Chicago -- I'm from further east, but the kaikon story seemed to happen the same way in a lot of cities. Local members would donate money and spend much time painting, cleaning, stripping floors, you name it -- because they so wanted a kaikon (community center.) Despite this, the senior leadership made decisions that totally bypassed the people who actually use and maintain the centers. Some communities worked hard to fix up a building, only to have it snatched away -- for reasons that nobody would explain. Or, they'd find themselves stuck with a small, run-down building in a bad part of town with little parking. Right, it's our mission to improve this bad part of town; never mind the safety and convenience of the SGI members who are actually using the center.
It's the same logic that had senior leaders thinking it would be a great idea for all the members in outlying areas to drive six or eight hours to have a big meeting in Boston or New York City in midwinter. They just have no clue how great the distances really are in North America -- how far we actually have to drive, how bad, or nonexistant public transportation is, the problem of parking in cities. In Tokyo, you can just take the subway everywhere. The leaders just don't understand. As long as the money is coming in, there's no incentive for them to try to understand.
I agree that the priesthood/SGI split was a huge turning point. SGI had always insisted, prior to that, that we follow the high priest because he had "kechimyaku" -- some special transmission of the law that had been passed down, starting with Nichiren, to his successor Nikko -- and then on and on from each high priest to his successor. Then in the 1990's, SGI decided that Nikken Abe, the current high priest didn't actually have kechimyaku. The previous high priest, Nittatsu, had actually died without publicly designating his successor. Nikken insisted that Nittatsu had chosen him. Nobody could prove it either way.
I think Ikeda simply decided that he'd reached critical mass by 1990. He was popular enough, SGI was big enough, the overseas members rarely saw priests anyway. He could do as he'd probably planned all along -- rid himself of these pesky priests who kept trying to tell him what to do. So he did.
So, suddenly, the all-important kechimyaku no longer mattered. Perhaps Nikken had never really had it anyway. Maybe lay people could have kechimyaku. For the most part, we just rolled over and said, yeah, sure. Why? Why not? To most of us, priests were these bald Japanese guys in long gray robes. Our SGI leaders, especially at the lower levels, were people like us, who lived in our communities, had jobs and families and homes like the rest of us. We spent a lot of time with them; they seemed like friends and practically family. So sure, if they said the priests were corrupt, lying parasites, and the head priest wasn't even legit --- why would we question our friends? Who could even pronounce kechimyaku anyway, much less explain it well?
Ikeda knew us so well. He knew that most of us would obey authority figures, like SGI lay leaders, and do as our SGI friends did. He knew we'd listen to people who seemed like ourselves and be inclined to believe the worst of people who were "different" than us, like the priests. He distracted and titillated us with tales of the priests' corruption, including Nikken's alleged solicitiation of prostitutes in Seattle. Oh, the evil priesthood who betrayed our trust, he had us outraged, emotional, whipped to a frenzy! It was a battle of the good, pure-hearted followers of Sensei, versus the wicked Nikken. We bought it, as he knew we would.
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
wakatta
()
Date: August 19, 2009 07:43AM
Quote
tsukimotoQuote
tsukimoto
Wakatta, I was not in Chicago -- I'm from further east, but the kaikon story seemed to happen the same way in a lot of cities. Local members would donate money and spend much time painting, cleaning, stripping floors, you name it -- because they so wanted a kaikon (community center.) Despite this, the senior leadership made decisions that totally bypassed the people who actually use and maintain the centers. Some communities worked hard to fix up a building, only to have it snatched away -- for reasons that nobody would explain. Or, they'd find themselves stuck with a small, run-down building in a bad part of town with little parking. Right, it's our mission to improve this bad part of town; never mind the safety and convenience of the SGI members who are actually using the center.
It's the same logic that had senior leaders thinking it would be a great idea for all the members in outlying areas to drive six or eight hours to have a big meeting in Boston or New York City in midwinter. They just have no clue how great the distances really are in North America -- how far we actually have to drive, how bad, or nonexistant public transportation is, the problem of parking in cities. In Tokyo, you can just take the subway everywhere. The leaders just don't understand. As long as the money is coming in, there's no incentive for them to try to understand.
I agree that the priesthood/SGI split was a huge turning point. SGI had always insisted, prior to that, that we follow the high priest because he had "kechimyaku" -- some special transmission of the law that had been passed down, starting with Nichiren, to his successor Nikko -- and then on and on from each high priest to his successor. Then in the 1990's, SGI decided that Nikken Abe, the current high priest didn't actually have kechimyaku. The previous high priest, Nittatsu, had actually died without publicly designating his successor. Nikken insisted that Nittatsu had chosen him. Nobody could prove it either way.
I think Ikeda simply decided that he'd reached critical mass by 1990. He was popular enough, SGI was big enough, the overseas members rarely saw priests anyway. He could do as he'd probably planned all along -- rid himself of these pesky priests who kept trying to tell him what to do. So he did.
So, suddenly, the all-important kechimyaku no longer mattered. Perhaps Nikken had never really had it anyway. Maybe lay people could have kechimyaku. For the most part, we just rolled over and said, yeah, sure. Why? Why not? To most of us, priests were these bald Japanese guys in long gray robes. Our SGI leaders, especially at the lower levels, were people like us, who lived in our communities, had jobs and families and homes like the rest of us. We spent a lot of time with them; they seemed like friends and practically family. So sure, if they said the priests were corrupt, lying parasites, and the head priest wasn't even legit --- why would we question our friends? Who could even pronounce kechimyaku anyway, much less explain it well?
Ikeda knew us so well. He knew that most of us would obey authority figures, like SGI lay leaders, and do as our SGI friends did. He knew we'd listen to people who seemed like ourselves and be inclined to believe the worst of people who were "different" than us, like the priests. He distracted and titillated us with tales of the priests' corruption, including Nikken's alleged solicitiation of prostitutes in Seattle. Oh, the evil priesthood who betrayed our trust, he had us outraged, emotional, whipped to a frenzy! It was a battle of the good, pure-hearted followers of Sensei, versus the wicked Nikken. We bought it, as he knew we would.
Tsukimoto,
I thought about snipping the quote and responding to part of it but I couldn't bring myself to touch a word. You are spot on with it all. I was a senior leader and saw every bit of what you have listed - at first I was disappointed and told myself it couldn't be but there were so many coincidences. As time went on I saw it all across the top leadership. Good leaders getting replaced by Japanese "Kids" who supposedly were so close to "Sensei". Functions and movements that became more and more about busy work. Pac Man Shakubuku, the choral movement, youth conventions, it goes on and on. Through it all was the drumbeat of "gotta get that zaimu", "world tribune subscription dollars", "seikyo times dollars", special issue pamphlets for special study, only $10 per copy, and by the way, you gotta have it. <shudder>
Wakatta
SGI members, fundraising and real estate speculation TAX-FREE
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: August 19, 2009 10:03AM
The information about SGI and fundraising and real estate, is absolutely critical.
Its brilliant.
This same story has been told many times about SGI so far.
First, SGI overcrowds a local SGI center, in some run-down place.
They then get everyone hyped-up, to buy a new local SGI center, like barnstorming. So people give lots of money, and high-end (richer) SGI members could literally gives thousands, or tens of thousands of dollars. They raise a fortune, as local people think they are doing something for the local SGI.
But all that money goes right to the top of SGI. Every freaking penny, you better believe it. Every dollar goes right to the top.
And then SGI goes and buys some run-down old mansion/building in a bad area of town, and they need almost no money for the downpayment.
They then get the SGI members to work for free, and fix-up the place, and make it nice. Free labor.
Then the value of that real estate can go up like crazy, and SGI can resell the building if they want, or just hold onto it, and borrow money against it, for more investing.
That is called real estate speculation and real estate investing.
SGI learned that in Japan, and it appears that is EXACTLY how SGI made their BILLIONS.
So they have applied the same model to the USA.
And since they are a "religion" all of those capital gains are TAX-FREE.
That is one of the ways SGI got their HUNDRED BILLION.
That is happening in almost every city. Its SGI real estate speculation and investing, tax-free, with no labor costs.
A brilliant business strategy that worked in Japan, and works in the USA.
SGI crying poverty to extract a fortune from local SGI people, when SGI appears to be literally the wealthiest sect/cultish group on earth.
SGI is going to keep doing this forever, they are a very dangerous and worrisome sect, as they are very skilled at what they are doing.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2009 10:09AM by The Anticult.
Its brilliant.
This same story has been told many times about SGI so far.
First, SGI overcrowds a local SGI center, in some run-down place.
They then get everyone hyped-up, to buy a new local SGI center, like barnstorming. So people give lots of money, and high-end (richer) SGI members could literally gives thousands, or tens of thousands of dollars. They raise a fortune, as local people think they are doing something for the local SGI.
But all that money goes right to the top of SGI. Every freaking penny, you better believe it. Every dollar goes right to the top.
And then SGI goes and buys some run-down old mansion/building in a bad area of town, and they need almost no money for the downpayment.
They then get the SGI members to work for free, and fix-up the place, and make it nice. Free labor.
Then the value of that real estate can go up like crazy, and SGI can resell the building if they want, or just hold onto it, and borrow money against it, for more investing.
That is called real estate speculation and real estate investing.
SGI learned that in Japan, and it appears that is EXACTLY how SGI made their BILLIONS.
So they have applied the same model to the USA.
And since they are a "religion" all of those capital gains are TAX-FREE.
That is one of the ways SGI got their HUNDRED BILLION.
That is happening in almost every city. Its SGI real estate speculation and investing, tax-free, with no labor costs.
A brilliant business strategy that worked in Japan, and works in the USA.
SGI crying poverty to extract a fortune from local SGI people, when SGI appears to be literally the wealthiest sect/cultish group on earth.
SGI is going to keep doing this forever, they are a very dangerous and worrisome sect, as they are very skilled at what they are doing.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2009 10:09AM by The Anticult.
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
Rothaus
()
Date: August 19, 2009 01:50PM
Hi wakatta
I must say that since the late 90s I never really believed that "kechimyaku" story anyway. Historically documents that were to prove this claim were "rediscovered" in 1488 by Nikkyo, a priets at Taiseki-ji. Also the Dai-Gohonzon was pulled out of the hat quite late in time. In his book "fire in the lotos" Montgomery claims that at the time this was not of a great importance as it only mattered to those temples who based their founding on Nikko, one of Nichirens Disciples. So it could be argued that Taisekiji wanted to claim its leadership amongst the Nikko temples. Apparently there was no big difference in teachings to the rest of the Nichiren temples. It most be noted that Nichiren Shoshu as a scholl was founded in the beginning of the 20th century and not all Nikko temples became part of Nichiren Shoshu some decided to stay with Nichiren Shu which was formaly founed at the end of the 19th century. Before that one basically had just Nichiren Temples with different doctrinal tendencies. The tasiseki teachings which make it different that most Nichiren temples was founded by Nichikan - especially reffering to Nichiren as a Buddha which most Nichiren temples did not do.
So the claim on leadership, orthodoxy is to my mind something SGI has inhertited from Taisseki-ji. On a doctrinal level SGI's position is even more shaky than the one of Taiseki-ji, no wonder issues of doctrine are not the most important issue in SGI, I guess they still have to figure something out on that matter. The thing is though it was Nichikan who founded a system that became distinctly the Taisejki-Ji system.
Greetings
Rothaus
I must say that since the late 90s I never really believed that "kechimyaku" story anyway. Historically documents that were to prove this claim were "rediscovered" in 1488 by Nikkyo, a priets at Taiseki-ji. Also the Dai-Gohonzon was pulled out of the hat quite late in time. In his book "fire in the lotos" Montgomery claims that at the time this was not of a great importance as it only mattered to those temples who based their founding on Nikko, one of Nichirens Disciples. So it could be argued that Taisekiji wanted to claim its leadership amongst the Nikko temples. Apparently there was no big difference in teachings to the rest of the Nichiren temples. It most be noted that Nichiren Shoshu as a scholl was founded in the beginning of the 20th century and not all Nikko temples became part of Nichiren Shoshu some decided to stay with Nichiren Shu which was formaly founed at the end of the 19th century. Before that one basically had just Nichiren Temples with different doctrinal tendencies. The tasiseki teachings which make it different that most Nichiren temples was founded by Nichikan - especially reffering to Nichiren as a Buddha which most Nichiren temples did not do.
So the claim on leadership, orthodoxy is to my mind something SGI has inhertited from Taisseki-ji. On a doctrinal level SGI's position is even more shaky than the one of Taiseki-ji, no wonder issues of doctrine are not the most important issue in SGI, I guess they still have to figure something out on that matter. The thing is though it was Nichikan who founded a system that became distinctly the Taisejki-Ji system.
Greetings
Rothaus
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
tsukimoto
()
Date: August 20, 2009 06:04AM
This is a great link if you are looking at a group and wondering if it might be a cult: www.orange-papers.org
On the website, you can click on any of these 100 traits/questions and read about it in more detail.
The Cult Test
by A. Orange
1. The Guru is always right.
2. You are always wrong.
3. No Exit.
4. No Graduates.
5. Cult-speak.
6. Group-think, Suppression of Dissent, and Enforced Conformity in Thinking
7. Irrationality.
8. Suspension of disbelief.
9. Denigration of competing sects, cults, religions...
10. Personal attacks on critics.
11. Insistence that the cult is THE ONLY WAY.
12. The cult and its members are special.
13. Induction of guilt, and the use of guilt to manipulate cult members.
14. Unquestionable Dogma, Sacred Science, and Infallible Ideology.
15. Indoctrination of members.
16. Appeals to "holy" or "wise" authorities.
17. Instant Community.
18. Instant Intimacy.
19. Surrender To The Cult.
20. Giggly wonderfulness and starry-eyed faith.
21. Personal testimonies of earlier converts.
22. The cult is self-absorbed.
23. Dual Purposes, Hidden Agendas, and Ulterior Motives.
24. Aggressive Recruiting.
25. Deceptive Recruiting.
26. No Humor.
27. You Can't Tell The Truth.
28. Cloning — You become a clone of the cult leader or other elder cult members.
29. You must change your beliefs to conform to the group's beliefs.
30. The End Justifies The Means.
31. Dishonesty, Deceit, Denial, Falsification, and Rewriting History.
32. Different Levels of Truth.
33. Newcomers can't think right.
34. The Cult Implants Phobias.
35. The Cult is Money-Grubbing.
36. Confession Sessions.
37. A System of Punishments and Rewards.
38. An Impossible Superhuman Model of Perfection.
39. Mentoring.
40. Intrusiveness.
41. Disturbed Guru, Mentally Ill Leader.
42. Disturbed Members, Mentally Ill Followers.
43. Create a sense of powerlessness, covert fear, guilt, and dependency.
44. Dispensed existence
45. Ideology Over Experience, Observation, and Logic
46. Keep them unaware that there is an agenda to change them
47. Thought-Stopping Language. Thought-terminating clichés and slogans.
48. Mystical Manipulation
49. The guru or the group demands ultra-loyalty and total committment.
50. Demands for Total Faith and Total Trust
51. Members Get No Respect. They Get Abused.
52. Inconsistency. Contradictory Messages
53. Hierarchical, Authoritarian Power Structure, and Social Castes
54. Front groups, masquerading recruiters, hidden promoters, and disguised propagandists
55. Belief equals truth
56. Use of double-binds
57. The cult leader is not held accountable for his actions.
58. Everybody else needs the guru to boss him around, but nobody bosses the guru around.
59. The guru criticizes everybody else, but nobody criticizes the guru.
60. Dispensed truth and social definition of reality
61. The Guru Is Extra-Special.
62. Flexible, shifting morality
63. Separatism
64. Inability to tolerate criticism
65. A Charismatic Leader
66. Calls to Obliterate Self
67. Don't Trust Your Own Mind.
68. Don't Feel Your Own Feelings.
69. The cult takes over the individual's decision-making process.
70. You Owe The Group.
71. We Have The Panacea.
72. Progressive Indoctrination and Progressive Commitments
73. Magical, Mystical, Unexplainable Workings
74. Trance-Inducing Practices
75. New Identity — Redefinition of Self — Revision of Personal History
76. Membership Rivalry
77. True Believers
78. Scapegoating and Excommunication
79. Promised Powers or Knowledge
80. It's a con. You don't get the promised goodies.
81. Hypocrisy
82. Denial of the truth. Reversal of reality. Rationalization and Denial.
83. Seeing Through Tinted Lenses
84. You can't make it without the cult.
85. Enemy-making and Devaluing the Outsider
86. The cult wants to own you.
87. Channelling or other occult, unchallengeable, sources of information.
88. They Make You Dependent On The Group.
89. Demands For Compliance With The Group
90. Newcomers Need Fixing.
91. Use of the Cognitive Dissonance Technique.
92. Grandiose existence. Bombastic, Grandiose Claims.
93. Black And White Thinking
94. The use of heavy-duty mind control and rapid conversion techniques.
95. Threats of bodily harm or death to someone who leaves the cult.
96. Threats of bodily harm or death to someone who criticizes the cult.
97. Appropriation of all of the members' worldly wealth.
98. Making cult members work long hours for free.
99. Total immersion and total isolation.
100. Mass suicide.
Bibliography
On the website, you can click on any of these 100 traits/questions and read about it in more detail.
The Cult Test
by A. Orange
1. The Guru is always right.
2. You are always wrong.
3. No Exit.
4. No Graduates.
5. Cult-speak.
6. Group-think, Suppression of Dissent, and Enforced Conformity in Thinking
7. Irrationality.
8. Suspension of disbelief.
9. Denigration of competing sects, cults, religions...
10. Personal attacks on critics.
11. Insistence that the cult is THE ONLY WAY.
12. The cult and its members are special.
13. Induction of guilt, and the use of guilt to manipulate cult members.
14. Unquestionable Dogma, Sacred Science, and Infallible Ideology.
15. Indoctrination of members.
16. Appeals to "holy" or "wise" authorities.
17. Instant Community.
18. Instant Intimacy.
19. Surrender To The Cult.
20. Giggly wonderfulness and starry-eyed faith.
21. Personal testimonies of earlier converts.
22. The cult is self-absorbed.
23. Dual Purposes, Hidden Agendas, and Ulterior Motives.
24. Aggressive Recruiting.
25. Deceptive Recruiting.
26. No Humor.
27. You Can't Tell The Truth.
28. Cloning — You become a clone of the cult leader or other elder cult members.
29. You must change your beliefs to conform to the group's beliefs.
30. The End Justifies The Means.
31. Dishonesty, Deceit, Denial, Falsification, and Rewriting History.
32. Different Levels of Truth.
33. Newcomers can't think right.
34. The Cult Implants Phobias.
35. The Cult is Money-Grubbing.
36. Confession Sessions.
37. A System of Punishments and Rewards.
38. An Impossible Superhuman Model of Perfection.
39. Mentoring.
40. Intrusiveness.
41. Disturbed Guru, Mentally Ill Leader.
42. Disturbed Members, Mentally Ill Followers.
43. Create a sense of powerlessness, covert fear, guilt, and dependency.
44. Dispensed existence
45. Ideology Over Experience, Observation, and Logic
46. Keep them unaware that there is an agenda to change them
47. Thought-Stopping Language. Thought-terminating clichés and slogans.
48. Mystical Manipulation
49. The guru or the group demands ultra-loyalty and total committment.
50. Demands for Total Faith and Total Trust
51. Members Get No Respect. They Get Abused.
52. Inconsistency. Contradictory Messages
53. Hierarchical, Authoritarian Power Structure, and Social Castes
54. Front groups, masquerading recruiters, hidden promoters, and disguised propagandists
55. Belief equals truth
56. Use of double-binds
57. The cult leader is not held accountable for his actions.
58. Everybody else needs the guru to boss him around, but nobody bosses the guru around.
59. The guru criticizes everybody else, but nobody criticizes the guru.
60. Dispensed truth and social definition of reality
61. The Guru Is Extra-Special.
62. Flexible, shifting morality
63. Separatism
64. Inability to tolerate criticism
65. A Charismatic Leader
66. Calls to Obliterate Self
67. Don't Trust Your Own Mind.
68. Don't Feel Your Own Feelings.
69. The cult takes over the individual's decision-making process.
70. You Owe The Group.
71. We Have The Panacea.
72. Progressive Indoctrination and Progressive Commitments
73. Magical, Mystical, Unexplainable Workings
74. Trance-Inducing Practices
75. New Identity — Redefinition of Self — Revision of Personal History
76. Membership Rivalry
77. True Believers
78. Scapegoating and Excommunication
79. Promised Powers or Knowledge
80. It's a con. You don't get the promised goodies.
81. Hypocrisy
82. Denial of the truth. Reversal of reality. Rationalization and Denial.
83. Seeing Through Tinted Lenses
84. You can't make it without the cult.
85. Enemy-making and Devaluing the Outsider
86. The cult wants to own you.
87. Channelling or other occult, unchallengeable, sources of information.
88. They Make You Dependent On The Group.
89. Demands For Compliance With The Group
90. Newcomers Need Fixing.
91. Use of the Cognitive Dissonance Technique.
92. Grandiose existence. Bombastic, Grandiose Claims.
93. Black And White Thinking
94. The use of heavy-duty mind control and rapid conversion techniques.
95. Threats of bodily harm or death to someone who leaves the cult.
96. Threats of bodily harm or death to someone who criticizes the cult.
97. Appropriation of all of the members' worldly wealth.
98. Making cult members work long hours for free.
99. Total immersion and total isolation.
100. Mass suicide.
Bibliography
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
tsukimoto
()
Date: August 20, 2009 06:37AM
SGI, as far as I know, has NOT done # 97, demanded ALL of the members' wealth, 99, totally isolated members, or 100, promoted mass suicide. I can find at least some bit of the other traits in SGI. The following seem especially relevant to what we've been discussing:
#1: "The guru is always right." I can't imagine anyone in SGI admitting that Ikeda could ever be wrong about anything.
#9: "Denigration of competing sects, usually over some very minor point of doctrine." Witness SGI's contempt and disrespect for Nichiren Shoshu, and the other Nichiren sects.
#23: "Dual purposes and hidden agendas; the organization has a public face -- and a very different private face." Hey, we're just a bunch of people who care about world peace and helping others to become happy through chanting -- let's not talk about the fact that we're also a multi-billion dollar, multi-national corporation. Even at group meetings -- I can remember being told not to talk about money or any problems within the organization if guests were present. We were also coached to be very friendly and enthusiastic when we had guests. We were a bit more relaxed when there were no guests. This goes along with #72, "Progressive indoctrination and commitment." Start out by asking guests and new members to do little things -- and then work up to getting them to do more and give more.
#31: "Dishonesty, deceit, denial, falsification and rewriting history." Joszef Stalin went so far as to airbrush his enemies out of pictures and have his agents rip pages out of library books. SGI has pretty much airbrushed George Williams, a president of SGI-USA (back when it was called NSA) out of our history -- for reasons that nobody will talk about. We were supposed to obey Nikken, the Nichiren Shoshu high priest, because he had kechimyaku -- oh, sorry, actually he doesn't have it, and it doesn't really matter anyway.
#35: "The organization is money-grubbing."
#70: "You owe the group everything." For the rest of your life; your "debt" to the group can never be completely repaid.
#98: "You must work long hours for free." You work for the group, and not only are not paid, but you end up paying the group. But that's okay, because you owe them everything.
#71: "We have the panacea that can fix everything that is wrong in the world."
#73: "Mystical, magical, unexplainable workings." Chant Nam-myoho-renge-kyo -- it is the solution to everything! No, we cannot explain why it works -- why do you need an explanation anyway, don't you have any faith? Just believe!
#1: "The guru is always right." I can't imagine anyone in SGI admitting that Ikeda could ever be wrong about anything.
#9: "Denigration of competing sects, usually over some very minor point of doctrine." Witness SGI's contempt and disrespect for Nichiren Shoshu, and the other Nichiren sects.
#23: "Dual purposes and hidden agendas; the organization has a public face -- and a very different private face." Hey, we're just a bunch of people who care about world peace and helping others to become happy through chanting -- let's not talk about the fact that we're also a multi-billion dollar, multi-national corporation. Even at group meetings -- I can remember being told not to talk about money or any problems within the organization if guests were present. We were also coached to be very friendly and enthusiastic when we had guests. We were a bit more relaxed when there were no guests. This goes along with #72, "Progressive indoctrination and commitment." Start out by asking guests and new members to do little things -- and then work up to getting them to do more and give more.
#31: "Dishonesty, deceit, denial, falsification and rewriting history." Joszef Stalin went so far as to airbrush his enemies out of pictures and have his agents rip pages out of library books. SGI has pretty much airbrushed George Williams, a president of SGI-USA (back when it was called NSA) out of our history -- for reasons that nobody will talk about. We were supposed to obey Nikken, the Nichiren Shoshu high priest, because he had kechimyaku -- oh, sorry, actually he doesn't have it, and it doesn't really matter anyway.
#35: "The organization is money-grubbing."
#70: "You owe the group everything." For the rest of your life; your "debt" to the group can never be completely repaid.
#98: "You must work long hours for free." You work for the group, and not only are not paid, but you end up paying the group. But that's okay, because you owe them everything.
#71: "We have the panacea that can fix everything that is wrong in the world."
#73: "Mystical, magical, unexplainable workings." Chant Nam-myoho-renge-kyo -- it is the solution to everything! No, we cannot explain why it works -- why do you need an explanation anyway, don't you have any faith? Just believe!
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
obsidian
()
Date: August 20, 2009 12:21PM
Quote
tsukimoto
SGI, as far as I know, has NOT done # 97, demanded ALL of the members' wealth, 99, totally isolated members
#97 They don't demand all your wealth, but if they could, they certainly would. They just know that by not demanding ALL the wealth, they would end up getting MORE, i.e. a little bit from everyone, instead of ALL from very few.
#99 They do isolate members to the best of their ability. There are so many activities and functions that anyone who goes to work/school does not have time to do any other social activities outside of SGI. On top of that, you are instructed to bring all your family and friends to meetings with you. The thing about SGI is they don't isolate you forcefully. They make you isolate yourself through gentle persuasion and false promises. That's why they're so dangerous.
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
quiet one
()
Date: August 20, 2009 01:36PM
tsukimoto, Thank you for informing us of the orange website. I read several of the descriptions of "traits" and found it very interesting. Item #2 (you are always wrong) makes me think of something that has been on my mind lately: human revolution. I have been thinking, why does SGI always insist that there is something wrong with every member, and that they need to do human revolution? The concept of human revolution assumes that everyone starts out with a flaw that needs to be changed. It seems like many religions have the same concept-that human beings are fundamentally bad. SGI always claimed to be different-but actually they are no different. It is interesting to me that this was described as a trait of a cult.
I have read that recent research shows that the greatest predictor of how much your income will be is how much money your parents had. It makes sense to me. Rags-to-riches stories are rare. And yet people chant to change their financial fortune. And SGI tells them that if they do human revolution by chanting, doing activities, and being faithful disciples they will change their money situation. Why after over 30 years of practice did I not see people really change? Things don't really change! I know so many people in SGI that are just barely getting by. But SGI tells them to give to the May contribution, and everything will get better. Recently I ran into a friend from SGI. He discussed the recent May contribution campaign. This man is in his 50's. He is not successful financially, although he has chanted for many years. He is always either unemployed or has a minimum wage job. He told me that he couldn't give anything, because he didn't have anything, so he participated in a garage sale to raise money, and he "promoted" others to contribute. He then told me what he got. He got a check in the mail for $600 (which he would have received anyways) and other things. The poor members really think participation in campaigns to make SGI richer is like an investment. If they give, they will get a return! Actually, I think that participating in SGI activities may be worse for your financial fortune than not. Many members (myself included) have spent hours on the phone at work talking to other members. (Not a good way to get ahead at work!) In the old days of NSA, I actually remember people being discouraged from attending college, instead they should do activities! Or you should do like in Japan, and be very consistent at your job, and never change jobs (even if could provide an advancement). You should just try to support the "boss" instead of working to get ahead. I also remember Japanese leaders even being critical of those like "Sharihotsu", or intelligent.
People need to do "human revolution" for many more reasons than just financial ones, according to SGI! All the members need to change!
I have read that recent research shows that the greatest predictor of how much your income will be is how much money your parents had. It makes sense to me. Rags-to-riches stories are rare. And yet people chant to change their financial fortune. And SGI tells them that if they do human revolution by chanting, doing activities, and being faithful disciples they will change their money situation. Why after over 30 years of practice did I not see people really change? Things don't really change! I know so many people in SGI that are just barely getting by. But SGI tells them to give to the May contribution, and everything will get better. Recently I ran into a friend from SGI. He discussed the recent May contribution campaign. This man is in his 50's. He is not successful financially, although he has chanted for many years. He is always either unemployed or has a minimum wage job. He told me that he couldn't give anything, because he didn't have anything, so he participated in a garage sale to raise money, and he "promoted" others to contribute. He then told me what he got. He got a check in the mail for $600 (which he would have received anyways) and other things. The poor members really think participation in campaigns to make SGI richer is like an investment. If they give, they will get a return! Actually, I think that participating in SGI activities may be worse for your financial fortune than not. Many members (myself included) have spent hours on the phone at work talking to other members. (Not a good way to get ahead at work!) In the old days of NSA, I actually remember people being discouraged from attending college, instead they should do activities! Or you should do like in Japan, and be very consistent at your job, and never change jobs (even if could provide an advancement). You should just try to support the "boss" instead of working to get ahead. I also remember Japanese leaders even being critical of those like "Sharihotsu", or intelligent.
People need to do "human revolution" for many more reasons than just financial ones, according to SGI! All the members need to change!
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
tsukimoto
()
Date: August 20, 2009 11:28PM
Quote
obsidianQuote
tsukimoto
SGI, as far as I know, has NOT done # 97, demanded ALL of the members' wealth, 99, totally isolated members
#97 They don't demand all your wealth, but if they could, they certainly would. They just know that by not demanding ALL the wealth, they would end up getting MORE, i.e. a little bit from everyone, instead of ALL from very few.
#99 They do isolate members to the best of their ability. There are so many activities and functions that anyone who goes to work/school does not have time to do any other social activities outside of SGI. On top of that, you are instructed to bring all your family and friends to meetings with you. The thing about SGI is they don't isolate you forcefully. They make you isolate yourself through gentle persuasion and false promises. That's why they're so dangerous.
A. Orange's article was talking about the extreme cases -- Jonestown, with people stuck in the jungles of Guyana with a madman, followers living in isolated ashrams with tyrannical gurus. The Moonies, where someone joins and has to turn over all of their worldly assets -- bank accounts, credit cards. Scientology, where converts mortgage their houses to pay for all the courses they must take. Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, who had 93 luxury cars; he demanded that his followers show their devotion by giving him such expensive gifts. And I'm also thinking of the Byron Katie thread. She cons her followers into giving her their wedding rings, laptops and even houses.
So I was thinking, "Well, at least SGI isn't THAT bad. You can still have your own car, job, and house or apartment. You are not forced to reject nonbelieving friends and relatives, as members of some cults are." Then I thought some more about Obsidian's post and thought about the story of boiling a frog to death. The story goes, if you just threw the frog into a pot of hot water, he'd leap right out. On the other hand, if you put the frog in cool water, and slowly turn up the heat, the frog stays in and doesn't know when to get out -- so he gets boiled to death. (Please note that I am not recommending that anyone actually try this at home.)
When I first encountered SGI, I thought of cults as being like Jonestown or the Moonies. I think I'd have run away from something like that....but SGI seemed so safe! Gentle persuasion, nice-sounding (though false) promises....I could keep my own job, my own place, wear and eat whatever I liked. My leaders and fellow members said that I could set, and achieve my own goals and dreams, whether it was being a stay-at-home mom or the CEO of a big corporation. How could this be bad?
For YEARS, I really didn't see how my life was slowly being taken over by SGI, and my thinking was manipulated. I felt guilty when I didn't want to do SGI activities all the time. I felt that my resistance was due to laziness and selfishness on my part -- rather than a very reasonable desire to have more balance in my life.
So Obsidian, I agree. The "start out cool and turn up the heat" approach had to be a conscious decision on the part of the SGI leadership. They can get more members, more work out of the members, and more money if they go softly and slowly. Sure, if Ikeda took us off to the middle of the jungle, he could be king of the jungle -- but that's not what he wants. That's far too limiting. He wants to be powerful and regarded as legitimate in the real world. You don't get that by taking your followers to some isolated, fenced-in compound. You get that by having a varied following, people who are educated and successful in different fields. People who have money, and skills to share over a period of decades, people who are respected by others, so that your group becomes integrated into the mainstream society. Buy a degree here, a degree there, get your picture taken with famous people, powerful people, intellectuals.
Quiet one, I always found the ideas of "human revolution" and "We all have the Buddha nature, as we are," contradictory. If I'm really a Buddha as I am, why do I have to do human revolution? Maybe it's like the old principle of advertising -- people who are satisfied with themselves buy less. Make someone feel flawed, and they'll buy things to correct the perceived faults. People buy all these diet plans, and books, gym memberships, exercise equipment, but how many people really lose a significant amount of weight and keep it off? How many people actually change their lives after reading self-help books? Likewise, I see so many SGI members who say that they've improved their lives. Yet they still have all the same financial, health, relationship, and family issues now, as they did fifteen years ago, as far as I can see.
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
obsidian
()
Date: August 22, 2009 02:43AM
I was wondering, do the youth groups hang out with each other outside of SGI activities? Are there a lot of inter-SGI relationships that happen? I know they separate the male youth group from the female youth group, but they do see each other at other SGI meetings. Just wondering if SGI members date exclusively within SGI. I imagine with all the time spent within SGI, it would be hard to meet people through other means. I would think that SGI would like that, because it would encourage the members to stay and it would also further isolate them from the rest of society. Anyone have any experiences/stories they would like to share?
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