Onion,

Maybe it's my training
> from law school to look at every issue from every
> direction, not just two opposing views.
>

I suspected who you were but now I’m quite sure given you’re statement about the law degree (first name begins with M - not that it matters).

As previously stated I see things through kind of a legal, evidentiary framework and believe in innocence until proof of guilt emerges (not necessarily beyond a reasonable doubt). But this is one reason I’m slow to accept hearsay as evidence regarding JRS or anyone else. All on this site seem to be convinced that evil doing has occurred, but since I wasn’t exposed to it, I’m cautious about forming conclusions. I would absolutely accept convincing data, but I don’t underestimate the ability of people with an agenda to lie, embellish or misperceive. So, until I see such evidence I must remain agnostic about the allegations.

My problem with LWF is mainly around the oppression and condemnation I lived under for years, which coexisted along with great blessing and deep relationships. The word “Dedication” became part of the LWF idolatry resulting in the feeling that you could never do enough to please God. I had to get out of that unhealthy atmosphere to feel Gods love and favor again, which I do.

So I have a legal sort of question, which you may not feel free to answer. Given your training do you believe there is sufficient evidence to convict the key leadership (the dead and the living) of actual crimes? Or are the offenses mainly in the realm of religious manipulation resulting in psychological damage, but without objective evidence, I.e., a subjective interpretation by the manipulated or abused party. Could a good attorney get a jury conviction?

You spoke of JRS’ extra marital affairs. What level of certainty do you have about this and what is the basis? Are there others who were equally close to JRS who see it differently?

Aardvark Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Or try chanting.
>
> Well, as you all suspect I say 100 bless Johns and
> 200 Hail Marilyns every chance I get. It seems to
> take the edge off.


Wow well that's not near enough if you really believed in resurrection life!

Sorry to change the subject, but since we're all here, does anyone know what it cost to send a kid to Centers of Learning ,Sepulveda in the 80's/90's?

Aardvark - I sent you a private message earlier.

I have identified myself on this forum (Mary Wyatt) and I've identified myself as Onion on various Facebook groups that I no longer participate in because of the level of anger that I don't need in my life.

I had a lot of first hand knowledge of things that were done by JRS because I worked with him closely in Accounting and Legal and at the time of his death had been acing as John & Marilyn's personal assistant.

I saw some things I later researched and then I began learning a flood of information and this is how I break it down in my own mind.

I do not believe JRS committed any crimes. I have corroborated information about at least 4 extra marital affairs (corroborated by independent witness testimony that I will not repeat on this forum). I have first hand knowledge of his affair with Marilyn that was in place in 1972 and continued until they got married in 1980. I stayed at JRS' home so his wife Martha would not be left there alone on the two nights a week (every single week he was in town) when he "waited on the Lord." At that time I lived with Marilyn and knew (from her own mouth which is called an admission not hearsay) that she went to be with him. So John's wrongdoing had to do with his abuse of power in seducing various women (boy did it backfire on him with Marilyn) which I understand (but have no corroboration for) was his weakness as far back as the 4-Square days.

I have corroberated information that I learned after I became a lawyer that JRS gave words to people to do certain things that he needed to have done to protect him from having his sins of the flesh exposed. People obeyed words without knowing the truth for 20+ years.

Rick Holbrook is a criminal and the only reason he walks free is because the statute of limitations has run out on the crimes that have been exposed (so far). Yes there is adequate testimony as well as documentary evidence for him to be convicted of a crime (which requires beyond a reasonable doubt). In civil court the standard of proof is lower and I believe he will be held liable for the damages he has done to people.

Marilyn escapes criminal liability by being dead. But Gary, Marilyn and Rick all committed criminal acts against people and committed numerous acts of financial and tax fraud. Yes there is adequate live witness testimony about things that are long past the statute of limitations (forgery, fraud on the court) but there are many other financial crimes under the category of tax fraud that I believe will result in several convictions for both Gary Hargrave and Rick Holbrook. I've seen a lot of the documentary evidence. It is very solid. I can't disclose more than that on this Forum.

Hope that helps. PM me if you want to discuss further.

Aardvark - P.S.

You said: My problem with LWF is mainly around the oppression and condemnation I lived under for years, which coexisted along with great blessing and deep relationships. The word “Dedication” became part of the LWF idolatry resulting in the feeling that you could never do enough to please God. I had to get out of that unhealthy atmosphere to feel Gods love and favor again, which I do.


That puts it in a pretty good nutshell. Most details of abuse and stories of what people went thru highlight and emphasize the oppression and condemnation we all lived under while we ran like hamsters on the wheel trying to faster and faster and faster to measure up. That was an awful way to live and a really untrue picture of God's desire for His people.

Onion Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Aardvark - P.S.
>
> You said: My problem with LWF is mainly around
> the oppression and condemnation I lived under for
> years, which coexisted along with great blessing
> and deep relationships. The word “Dedication”
> became part of the LWF idolatry resulting in the
> feeling that you could never do enough to please
> God. I had to get out of that unhealthy atmosphere
> to feel Gods love and favor again, which I do.
>
>
> That puts it in a pretty good nutshell. Most
> details of abuse and stories of what people went
> thru highlight and emphasize the oppression and
> condemnation we all lived under while we ran like
> hamsters on the wheel trying to faster and faster
> and faster to measure up. That was an awful way
> to live and a really untrue picture of God's
> desire for His people.

Amen

An interesting post from slandjt back in 2015 which probably will strike a chord with many.

Quote

Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by: slandjt ()
Date: September 17, 2015 10:45PM

I've been reading these posts for a couple of years and thought I would weigh in now. I came into the Walk as an impressionable young teenager in the late 60s. My parents actually came to a service and then told me I couldn't go any more. I was told by the church pastor and elders that I should lie to my parents so I could continue attending services, which I did. The regret I feel many years later is still with me, especially since the Walk also required that I break my bonds with my parents and family. I will always wonder what my relationship with my parents would have been like had I listened to them. Christmas was now "Saturnalia" and I hurt my parents over and over again by being absent from their home on December 25. I spent many years immersed in the Walk, attending services several nights per week, giving "until it hurts," waiting on the Lord, spending money I didn't have on my Living Word tape subscription, School of Prophets books, etc. Now all these years later I'm divorced, even though JRS checked out my marriage and declared "It's a marriage made in heaven." I regret the years wasted when I could have been completing college and establishing a career instead of screaming "death to the channel" in the LA churches. When I left the Walk soon after JRS died, it was as though I'd fallen into a black hole as I waited for judgment to fall on my head. I was, after all, no longer under the covering of the Walk and had disobeyed JRS and God. My brother is still in the Walk, obeying every command from Gary and Marilyn and the "authorities" at his church.

Moving on, I knew David Cokas in LA and can tell you he has set up his personal kingdom in San Diego. I know many of you think highly of him and I apologize in advance for having a different opinion, but I saw early on how important it was to him to have the "flock" around him, hanging on his every word.

All of that said, I moved on from the Walk a long time ago, and although it will always be a part of my life, I now have a much quieter, peaceful life and a much greater understanding of the human condition.

Well put, slandjt. A quieter, peaceful life is a tremendous transition for people who thought that the destiny of the ages hung on their prayers. What a load to carry around for years.

Quote

Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by: Ohman? ()
Date: August 21, 2019 06:23PM

Sorry to change the subject, but since we're all here, does anyone know what it cost to send a kid to Centers of Learning ,Sepulveda in the 80's/90's?

Ohman, I don't remember. But I looked up the current costs, and to send a child to Jr. High or High School at Centers of Learning and after school care is about $10,000 per year. There was no childcare offered during the years you asked about, but I'm positive that the costs were significantly less in those days, or there would have been no school. ; )

Hey Onion,
Thanks. I PMed you back.

Sorry, my mind has been on the King of Israel today. A tidbit (below) about a tenuous connection to the king's family:

My uncle (William F. McKenna) was involved in investigating a housing scandal during the Eisenhower administration. A key figure in wrongdoing was the king's father Fred. Note: my uncle stopped speaking to me after I dropped out of college my junior year to help usher in the Kingdom of God. He seemed to think it was all nonsense, and I was being played. In retrospect, I think he was right. Oh well.


[nycwalks.com]

[www.thedailybeast.com]

(if the moderator removes this post since it is off-topic and can be interpreted as political in nature, I understand)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/23/2019 12:50AM by changedagain.