GSchaeff Wrote:
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>
> and here's my reddit post. I feel so hip!
>
> [www.reddit.com]

GSSchaeff "I ask if at all possible to refrain from using proper names of individuals not in key leadership roles such as JRS and G&M." I disagree. There has been kind of a party line. Expressed by only a few. On this forum. To do that. And I resent that lording it over me. I realize. Some posters were only harmed by the behavior of JRS or G&M. That's not my story. Or maybe. The story of countless other little people.

Larry,
I largely agree, although I think there's a middle ground. I believe I tried reading Woodrow Nichols' book at one point in the 90s. It was easy to write off as you said, I believe the individual who showed it to me simply explained that Nichols did not "have a revelation of who John was," and therefore could not possibly understand what he was seeing. Nichols was very heavy on theology, and as soon as he started writing about Christian Dominionism I likely tuned out--agreeing that what he had experienced couldn't possibly be described in theology, void of the living, breathing, revelation we had of a "living word." Mysticism has a funny way of cementing itself in your emotional experiences that way through group speak during prophesy, and marathon worship sessions and what not.

I'm of the opinion that if we had a more concise, layman's version of what he wrote, it would be harder to write off. The research has largely been started here. Perhaps a preface on what a cult is as RR described in his 10 or so attributes of a cult. Perhaps a history that explains why JRS found himself at odds with the Latter Rain mvmt, and how much of his family saw through the charade, for example his wife, children, and the bickfords. There's so much more to why some of these churches closed, or where the money went like in the case with South Gate. A concise history of this church, especially what they don't tell you, that doesn't get too verbose on theology might be really helpful to some of those on the fence both inside the body and recently out.

NickleandDimed,
I struggled with that part and I can relate to where you are coming from. I absolutely agree people should feel free to voice where they've been wronged both for their own benefit and the benefit of others. This was merely an attempt to reign in focus for the post. My goal with the research would be a more comprehensive outlook on the institutional problems of TLW. While abuse at the individual level is no small part of the terribleness associated with TLW, I'm simply trying keep the focus on issues that would be universal to all members. That way anything written wouldn't be as easily dismissed as a "hit piece." I certainly encourage not being limited on forums such as this, the truth needs to get out there.

That said, there would certainly be room for examples of abuse in the research of those willing to share. Again, it would be difficult to use proper names what with libel laws and everything. I wouldn't be publishing, but its not something I'm looking to open anyone up to.
Hope that helps.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2018 03:14AM by GSchaeff.

GSchaeff – After leaving TLWF 19 years ago, (I was involved from 1969-1999) I’ve read dozens of books about cults, many that mention TLWF specifically. I also spent a couple of years in counseling with a psychologist familiar with cults. I think all you suggest would be valuable. I don’t recall reading any book from which I did not gain some nugget of truth. The real point I was trying to make is that each of us come away from our experience in TLWF with an altered ability to recognize the truth and it’s a long process finding our way back to health. We were programmed to think a certain way and it is difficult to absorb anything different than what we were taught. No matter how clearly something is stated in black and white, it still has to pass through a programmed filter that will alter it. It’s just good to recognize that this is taking place.

Even if we manage to escape TLWF, the real damage is uncovered when we attempt to become a functioning part of the Body again. Even those that are willing to listen to the words of Jesus seldom want anything to do with his people after being this wounded. It’s similar to a child that was sexually abused by their father and now is having to learn how to have a healthy relationship with a spouse. We were spiritually abused by those claiming to be our spiritual parents and it can take decades to unwrap the damage that was done - or even recognize that it actually was abuse. Jesus warned us to call no man father – and for good reason.

I know I’ve suggested that people obey the words of Jesus, and where they conflict with the teaching of TLWF, go with what Jesus taught - because what Jesus taught actually works and the other does not. That is interpreted to mean that I hate the people in TLWF. Nothing could be further from the truth. I'd like to see people have something that actually works in their hand after all this effort instead of being conned into thinking the answer is coming in the next fantasy breakthrough - while the years pass and their pockets are depleted. However, as soon as we refuse to let a human take the place of God, the talons come out and we are perceived to be evil and rebellious. Jesus also said to call no man teacher – you have one teacher and it is the Christ and you are all brothers. I would suspect that we should also not be calling other humans Door Openers or Lamps – or changing God’s name to theirs in worship songs.

Larry, I appreciate the support and the caution. It has taken me at least that long and I surely have further to go as well. If not for my patient wife I would not have navigated the de-programing you spoke of nearly as well. A lot of it does come down to trust--both trusting others and trusting yourself again. It's almost as if submitting to 'a word over your life,' and the person dictating that word, inevitably causes insecurity. It's not easy to trust your own judgment when you are taught that can only result in being a failure. Didn't JRS say "I know that it will be vainstriving, defeated ambition and misdirected effort if I try to direct my own life." Talk about Stockholm Syndrome.
If you could recommend some more books that helped you, and others that mention TLW, I'd really appreciate it.

GREETINGS GSchaeff:

You quoted JRS as saying, "I know that it will be vainstriving, defeated ambition and misdirected effort if I try to direct my own life." The statement is actually true (just look at the state of the world), but was completely hijacked by transferring direction onto an individual (fill in the appropriate name) instead of where it should have been placed, i.e. the STILL SMALL VOICE within.

As Larry continually points out regarding "calling no man father", we were misdirected from the outset from a 'walk with GOD' to a walk with a man. Worse still, it was indirectly inferred that our 'maturity' would never really be attained in such a relationship, thus creating an environment of perpetual dependency.

Instead of cultivating FREEDOM, we were inadvertently caught in the web of a restricting closed-loop system.

Small minds live in small worlds. My exit was due to the cramped quarters I felt I had been relegated to, only to discover that the 'KINGDOM is RELATIONSHIPS' wherever we find them--which is just about everywhere.

WELCOME aboard.

girls_turn_it_off Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The other day a Living Word childhood friend of
> mine/former YASPer/fellow blow-out was traveling
> from Hawaii to LAX. When he arrived at the
> terminal he recognized a man sitting alone at the
> hotel bar drinking a glass of champagne. Low and
> behold it was Gary Hargrave (the Christ in the
> flesh)!
>
> *** Just take a second and imagine Gary in a
> shepherd shirt and loafers sipping a glass of
> champagne paid for by APCO support tithes ***
>
> My friend/former YASPer/fellow blow-out approached
> Gary and said hi. Apparently Gary recognized him
> (probably because he grew up in the Maui church).
> G-man told him he was traveling back to LA because
> Lorena Holbrook is giving birth. AND Gary said he
> is getting married to Silvana (formerly Jenkins)!
> Congrats to G-man on his third wife and Rick and
> his fourth wife's new child!

Wow! The biggest question is, "Where were the thundering herds, uh, I mean adoring throngs of LW Walkers to greet the G-man at LAX?"

GSchaeff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Larry,
> I largely agree, although I think there's a middle
> ground. I believe I tried reading Woodrow Nichols'
> book at one point in the 90s. It was easy to write
> off as you said, I believe the individual who
> showed it to me simply explained that Nichols did
> not "have a revelation of who John was," and
> therefore could not possibly understand what he
> was seeing. Nichols was very heavy on theology,
> and as soon as he started writing about Christian
> Dominionism I likely tuned out--agreeing that what
> he had experienced couldn't possibly be described
> in theology, void of the living, breathing,
> revelation we had of a "living word." Mysticism
> has a funny way of cementing itself in your
> emotional experiences that way through group speak
> during prophesy, and marathon worship sessions and
> what not.
>
> I'm of the opinion that if we had a more concise,
> layman's version of what he wrote, it would be
> harder to write off. The research has largely been
> started here. Perhaps a preface on what a cult is
> as RR described in his 10 or so attributes of a
> cult. Perhaps a history that explains why JRS
> found himself at odds with the Latter Rain mvmt,
> and how much of his family saw through the
> charade, for example his wife, children, and the
> bickfords. There's so much more to why some of
> these churches closed, or where the money went
> like in the case with South Gate. A concise
> history of this church, especially what they don't
> tell you, that doesn't get too verbose on theology
> might be really helpful to some of those on the
> fence both inside the body and recently out.

Interesting thread here. I can look at this from 2 sides of the fense now. I don't think I ever read Nichols book. Years back I read some books about TCLW written by outsiders. At the time I wondered, "where did this author get this idea? " Still I wonder where did they com eup with some of this stuff about shiloh?'

I think some of theology is to market a book; controversy and the extreme sells.
I think we all have a challenge to undo some of the patterns of not so healthy behavior that we picked up when we were involved.

( feel free to disagree with many anytime)
I also think every one went into the wlak with a varity of alrady established pre-conceived notions taht affected how we engaged in the not so healthy activies in the walk. If my diea isa fact this maybe be why the challenge to pul it together is so different for so many.

We all listened to the save words whitehr in person or on tape.I am guessing we all kind of got the same message" from JRS. But the big difference was who was leading our local flocks? That I think, may be a key issue as to interpretation and how our friends got hurt.

I am quite honestly stradeling the fense on jrs. I knew him since I was 7 or 8 years old. I knew and loved so many people who knew him asa teen. I was a afraid of most men, so my child's mind is not all that relaible. In some ways even I was vey respectful of him he seems like big Teddy bear. He was always kind to me.
On the other side of the fense he devloped a life style and made cnoices that were not consistant with the Christian values I was taught. I kind of passed it off as me being a Polly Anna Iowa girl. After a while as an adult being married to a TCLW memeber who covered up a lot of lies and the leaders in the church cvered for him as well as themselves and jrs...
..what do I say? The lies about alcohol and drug abuse were the norm that I did not know how to live with.
Reaching out for help out side the group was not acceptable in the group. Getting out side help left me with no support system. I will guess that "no support system" is why so many stayed for so long.

On my childish side where I was JRS as a Teddy BEar I have to ask what may be an offensive question. How much was JRS really responcible for 100's of cover ups by leaders in the church? Was that JRS or was it the individuals choices?

What was the real power the cult had over us all?
Personally when I called in dhs for help with my children's situation. ( Taht is an issues when peple like me have an education and job that made me a mandory reproter.) I knew I did right. Social Worker told me if I wanted my kids back I had to kick out my husband. Well, according to the walk I was wrong and I was treated horribly by walk members when I went grocery shopping or walking child to school...you know... put on the prayer list. Thre was nothing spiritual or christ like about that behavior from other members.

The walk in Anaheim was already being red flagged for a lot of things that few people knew about. Some leaders were is big legal trouble. did anyone every wonder why some leaders were moved to other cities and states to minister? or to Sholoh where they did not have to pass a back ground check to rent a apartment/ house or get a job?

"We" all had to make our choices. Why did "we" stay? Who realy was pulling our strings in JRS days?

I am not afraid to let it out. I do worry that I may offend some one who is not ready to open a can of worms. I am certainly not being led by any spirit. And my opinion may not jive with another survivors recollection.

lily rose Wrote:
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> Yes puddington. I went on only one herb picking
> trip to pick chaparral in the desert. When we got
> to the bushes, Rocky said to throw rocks under the
> bushes to chase away the rattle snakes. I have
> always had an irrational fear of snakes and
> sharks. I think I remember getting a migraine and
> spending most of the day sitting in the car. I
> think Charlie Dole joined me. Ha! We also met some
> desert rats (a couple) who invited us to their
> home. I remember they had bookcases full of books
> on the occult. The church members told them about
> the Walk and invited them to a service. I recall
> them showing up at the Valley and approaching me.
> I don't why, but it kind of freaked me to the
> point that I went to my favorite elder for
> ministry. The elder told me the couple probably
> latched on to me because I had an openness. Yeah.
> Yeah. What's that suppose to mean?


Hi lily rose. I am lol about "openess" not to make fun of you, but, WOW! Memories!
I think 'openess' was supposed to mean that your auara had a hole that was not protected by your spirtual covering. You would be vulnerable to the devil or a big NEP'
Some of those "words" and catch phrases were nothing but words that pegged people into a little hole the created a fear of not being good enough to enter into the kingdom. My opinion.

Way back when if I was told I had an "openess" I felt so bad. Currently, I realize that I have had invisible words written across my forehead that only people who are pros at taking advantage of others can read. The words on my forehed may not be the same as anyones' elses. "Gullible" " Naive" "sucker" "compliant" "sheep" "Open"

Again it may not apply to anyone else, but for me my learned body language showed i was eager to do what I was told to do. My pattern of behavior continued for decades.

Apparently people who like power and control look for those traits in people they want to use. In the walk using that word or similar was not a spiritul insight from leaders.It was a way to blame you for not being totally obedient to who was in charge. If anyone was compliant sheep they did not want us to wander over the boundaries. We might put 2 and 2 together.

I am not familiar with "desert rats" but you make a good point. Plently of folks looking for something out side of the "norm" in establish church "social clubs" wandered in and out of the walk in CA. My theory has been that JRS learned a lot from people who knew about the occult. He never had revelations but he plagarized many occultish ideas and power and control techiques.

I am on the fense how I feel about jrs. I hope my comment will add something relevent as we explore our walk.

Welcome GoingRouge,
I recently joined. I am old with a head full of beans to spill but not all the answers.