I can relate, FCSLC. And I think you're right that the wiser choice between what TLWF became and the Mormon church could very well have been the latter. I can't imagine it being less relatable/accountable to its congregants than the authority structure in TLWF.




FCSLC Wrote:
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> changedagain: I do not know the amount but I’m
> certain is was sizeable. It still “chaps my
> hide” when remembering all the sacrifice the
> locals made just to have a church for their
> children to attend that was an alternative to the
> predominant faith of the region.
>
> In retrospect, the children may have grown up
> “more normal” if they had gone to the Mormon
> Church instead. Can’t believe I’m saying
> this!!

AD--What they have, and how much of it came off the backs of the little people, I don't know. I try, as best as I can, to only relate my experience...and if it mirrors others, than there's obviously a pattern. Judging from what I've read for years in these threads, it certainly appears they've leveraged their church position into substantial material gain. Many people's volunteer labor has certainly directly benefited them. Of course, what might seem voluntary is open to question...given all the emphasis on people establishing themselves before 'God' by their service in the 'upward flow' in messages from the pulpit through the years.
The thing that always got me is their disdain for anyone that questions anything they say or do...and they've never hesitated to aggressively deal with those people...ripping them to shreds, often before a congregation. I mean, it is done in love, but still...(sarcasm alert!)

If I'm asked to do something that personally benefits them, it always comes through an intermediary. Someone over me in the authority structure. So I can't, for certain, say that it originated as an order from them. The intermediary, of course, provides plausible deniability.

Let's not forget that Gary Hargrave was never a "little person". He came into the San Diego church while in college and was very quickly included into the eldership. After 6 months, he was an assistant pastor.

And it just escalated from there. I think being a part-time cop in Redlands really helped him develop his bullying skills. All of this made him the out-of-touch cult leader that he is today.

paleface Wrote:
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> Let's not forget that Gary Hargrave was never a
> "little person". He came into the San Diego church
> while in college and was very quickly included
> into the eldership. After 6 months, he was an
> assistant pastor.

How in the world did he become an assistant pastor of a good-sized church (at least for the walk) within 6 months? Did someone take a personal interest in advancing him quickly through the ranks? Perhaps his hard-line stance supporting John during the mine debacle had something to do with it? Or did that occur after he already was an assistant pastor?
I suppose if you're attempting to consolidate power within this movement (as John was at the time), Gary would be a valuable asset. He knows how to subject people, and get them to rally behind a cause.

I think the reason Hargrave advanced so quickly is simple to understand. With John Robert Stevens all it took was kissing up to him, with people that are stuck on themselves, if someone comes along and says "Yes that's right" every time he opened his mouth, naturally they are going to advance quickly.

Same then as it is now.

About my last post, that might not be entirely true, what I said about Stevens putting Hargrave in charge because he kissed up. It could be that Hargrave was the best to put in charge. There was enough insanity to go around in Living Word Fellowship, I know for certain, and I mean for certain that if I, myself, had been put in Hargrave's place, (omit the part about being married to the Lamp, not know but #%^^ know) but if I had been set up as the honcho of the Living Word Fellowship in John Steven's place, I would have run it in the ground within a year.

If I had been head honcho (hey, it could happen) on day one, I would have created a Walk without leaders, changed the title of all pastors, elders, etc. to Service Providers and changed the title of the School of Prophets to the School for Service Providers. More changes regarding "serving" would have come on day two.

Apostle Dog Wrote:
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> if I had been set up as the honcho of the Living
> Word Fellowship in John Steven's place, I would
> have run it in the ground within a year.

So you're saying that I could have gotten out of TLWF 12 years earlier?
To think what could have been....

lily rose Wrote:
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> If I had been head honcho (hey, it could happen)
> on day one, I would have created a Walk without
> leaders, changed the title of all pastors, elders,
> etc. to Service Providers and changed the title of
> the School of Prophets to the School for Service
> Providers. More changes regarding "serving" would
> have come on day two.

I'm not sure if I can care about someone who doesn't have a ministry title. That's a radical concept, lily rose.