I call Godwin's Law on Apostle Dog. For those of you not familiar, google it.

Also, Apostle Dog, you bring up a point that I still have sadness about, and that I still see in the walk. To not show compassion, pity, sympathy, remorse towards each other, was a terrible mistake. Walking around judging everybody, and ignoring those in pain caused great suffering. They--we--thought that more suffering would equate to a more pure vessel for the kingdom, and would deliberately pile it on some individual until they just about cracked. Then we would blame it on "warfare." He's "going through it" was a common phrase. So we might pray for that person. But if someone's pain was identified as a regular old problem, even if it was caused by the walk, it was strictly hands off, do not give that person sympathy. And these were people we loved. I regret having that attitude for even one moment.

TheSarge and all,
As kBoy keeps stating, it’s all about love. As Jesus re-emphasized, the greatest thing we can do is love God and love one another – everything else hangs on that. The subtle implication in what John said about being ruined for anything else – and I’ve thought about it many times while looking for a fellowship of believers – is that no church will be able to take the place of idolatry that we were trained to think is normal in TLWF. Our primary relationship is with Him, and all our other relationships flow out of that. What takes a while to unpack is recognizing the extent to which we unknowingly gave up our personal relationship with God and allowed something else to take its place. We finally gain some stability when we stop being tied to externals (including church) and focus on what God has placed inside us. I think many former LWF members have been forced into that place for survival - and its a good place to be in for a season as long as you don't throw out God with the bath water.

I’m sure there are many churches I would be ill at ease in – like any in TLWF and maybe the snake handlers (although, in many ways they are quite similar) – but I also know from personal experience that what John said is simply not true – especially as we begin to peel off the layers of deception. Before we bring our violent intercession over something God never said in the first place into another church, it would probably be a good idea to recognize how well it worked the first time – or look at the fruit, as Jesus would say. Our trance-like worship produced very little actual fruit of the Spirit and probably did more to serve as an atmosphere for hypnosis to get us to believe the strange and bizarre and bypass our our mental faculties. Real worship is what you do with your life after you sing all those promises to God in a church service.

If I tried violent intercession on my wife – who fortunately was never involved in TLWF – suggesting I was trying to express my love and wanting to become closer to her, I’d scare her half to death and she would probably book an appointment for me with a mental health professional. On the other hand, if I carefully listen to and do what she says would be a blessing to her out of love for her, I get the relationship I am looking for. I would suggest the same thing is true with God. Our prayers are far more effective when we listen to what He wants done and then allow Him to empower us to do it - instead of throwing a temper tantrum when we don’t get our own way, thinking He will somehow come over to our viewpoint and bless it if the veins in our necks protrude far enough. It’s quite a surprise to find out He has only had our good in mind from the beginning and is much better at ordering our steps than we are. The lie of Him holding back what is good for us goes back to the Garden of Eden.

My real point in bringing up fellowshipping with other believers is that God loves his Body. If you love Him, you can’t help loving what He loves because He is in us. He equally loves the world we were so busy hiding from. His love is not nearly as fragile as trying to play religion in our own strength, picking winners and losers. He puts gifts in each one of us for each other that the enemy hates – even at Christmas time. Jesus prayer for our oneness is still on the table. I also swore off attending another church. After reading Jesus’ words, I finally consented to focus at least on loving the people under my own roof, then the neighbors and business relationships, then the people at my local pub with no Christian background, and finally other Christians. (Considering our background in TLWF, I do understand the lengthy pub phase.) Now my closest friends are those Christians I seemed to be so afraid of. One thing that helped my trust issues was to recognize that God is 100% faithful and no human is even capable of that – just cut them some slack and love them, whether they return the favor or not. I've met some incredible Christians that you would love knowing - and they you. We are not the only ones out there with battle scars - try watching your loved ones be beheaded if you want some perspective.

A new LW church in Iowa City. Looks like an atempt to sanitize their outreach into Iowa City, with little or no obvious references to Shiloh.

[www.livingwordcommunitychurch.org]

As Larry B. so eloquently stated, “Real worship is what you do with your life after you sing all those promises to God in a church service.”

The ramifications of not ‘walking the talk’ are what this entire forum is about. We were all privy to the fact that the theology rarely met the road. The mere fact that the entire organization was patterned after a hierarchical structure of Ephesians 5 played right into kingdom building, position grabbing, turf warfare, inner and outer circles galore--a recipe for destructive relationships par excellence. One thing was preached and another was walked out.

The reference to our ‘temper tantrums’ highlights the embarrassing amount of hubris we displayed, thinking we needed to remind HEAVEN of something obviously overlooked. When Jesus would find occasion to slip away, I’m sure he was not placing his Xmas order, but merely COMMUNING with LOVE, the most effective battery-charger in all of eternity. We should have taken better notes.

The focus on fellowship cannot be emphasized enough, and hopefully encompasses much larger parameters than we were previously allowed to consider. As mentioned earlier, our family enjoys a variety of relationships that crosses many demographics, all of them LOVING. Neither race, creed, religion, culture nor zip code play any part in the dynamics. They include the neighbors, local business owners, their employees and fellow patrons, service workers of all kinds, fellow dog owners, and even the local homeless who still choose that as a way of life.

Speaking of pubs, we live blocks away from one of SoCal's most famous, with more than a century of history in one form or another, and whose loyal patrons consider it their home.

HOME and FAMILY is where you find it.

I hope I get the Godwin's law award, or, maybe a Hitler youth knife. Early on I did see the similarity between the more ravenous intercession sessions to some of the old black and white Hitler speeches and the mindless cheers from the audience. The militant hatred of Christianity (Babylon) in favor of John worship.

One thing I did learn when I was finally out of there, that I would never walk into a church that spoke 100 percent of the time about a man. The Living Word Fellowship was not about God. It was about John Robert Stevens. Might as well wrap your head around that. If you were trying to follow "that Jesus dude" then you were not long in the fold, unless you kept a very low profile, you would be discovered pretty quickly and jack booted out the door.

I have finally reached the stage of my freedom where I do not even call the Living Word Fellowship a church, it is a cult and that is all. I guess I will see if the current phase changes my mind, I doubt it.

BTW, I think the reason that we, all of us that left there finally, have had so much trouble trusting Christians, ( I too went the path of Larry Bobo, the Christians came into my life last) I think the reason is that we were imparted something from JRS after all, and that was hate, hate for the ones that rejected him, he blindly hated them because they saw thru his BS.

I think there might be some things that are legitimate in the teachings of John Robert Stevens. I don't have any tapes to listen to now, since a member of our church stole all of our tapes, (hell I didn't really care, and don't now,) but I would like to compare some of them to the bible if I had some. I have compared the few I have listened to from the web sites and there are some pretty fancy scripture twisting. The only question in my mind, is 'how much of that scripture twisting' is on purpose? I have to wonder if he really did set out to deceive people that he knew were worshiping him and why did he allow them to worship him? I know that a friend of mine always reminds me that John was "all the time" telling people they shouldn't worship him, but you know what, that is wishful thinking on my friend's part, because I heard a hell of a lot of tapes and I don't recall that. If anything I heard him encourage people to focus on him because after all it was important for him, "the apostle" to break thru, for their good, for the good of the whole world, after all, the was the chosen vessel. No, I wonder if the man was warped,of if he believed all of that, or if he was a deliberate deceiver much like Robert Tilton and others. Of course I will never know. But I still wonder.

I know that there was probably lots of sound teaching mixed in that, and there was some sickness in it too. I know that he spent a few minutes with my son shooting off firecrackers, that he probably was also a pretty nice guy. But like me and all of the people listening here, JRS was a mixture, and he is fair game to examine because he was a public mixture, someone that set himself up to be an example, so it is my right to examine that man, it is OK to examine the example. I do not accept the "touch not God's anointed" theory, not as it applies to people like this, not as it applies to Jim Jones, not as it applies to Hitler or Obama or Bush or whoever. If they get on stage or behind a pulpit or in any way hint that they are special and they should be heard and they should be followed, then they put themselves in the position to be examined and to be scrutinized.

Yes, so true.

larry bobo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Our trance-like worship produced very
> little actual fruit of the Spirit and probably did
> more to serve as an atmosphere for hypnosis to get
> us to believe the strange and bizarre and bypass
> our our mental faculties.

Craig Haworth is the pastor. Perhaps looking for a fresh start, distancing themselves from the baggage of Shiloh.


paleface Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A new LW church in Iowa City. Looks like an
> atempt to sanitize their outreach into Iowa City,
> with little or no obvious references to Shiloh.
>
> [www.livingwordcommunitychurch.org]

While there is some merit to contemplation or meditation, especially in light of the clamor of the world, our creation was not for the purpose of worship (GOD has no ego), but for friendship/fellowship (John 15:15). Not only did Abraham get it right, but we would do well to remember the CELEBRATION thrown on our behalf that awaits our RETURN (Prodigal Parable).

I Chronicles 16:10
Psalm 66:1-2
Psalm 99:5
John 4:23-24
Phillipines 3:3
Revelations 14:6-7

I think God wants worship. King David was one of his most aggressive worshippers. All creation worships him. It isn't about His ego. Worship is an expression of our love for Him. What father doesn't want to hear his children love him.

kBOY Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> While there is some merit to contemplation or
> meditation, especially in light of the clamor of
> the world, our creation was not for the purpose of
> worship (GOD has no ego), but for
> friendship/fellowship (John 15:15). Not only did
> Abraham get it right, but we would do well to
> remember the CELEBRATION thrown on our behalf that
> awaits our RETURN (Prodigal Parable).