Quote: Invisible ....


"If I said anything about the church other than what they believed to be the truth - to any one in the church, including my own relatives - they would run to the ministry reporting what I had said - and then the ministry would influence my family or people who once had related to me, to further estrange them selves from me."

Makes me think of Galileo Galilei.

Keep up the good fight ---- what a mind boggling task.

Some years after I left the church, I spoke on the phone, with one of the apostolic ministries some time in the 1990's. He cried when he told me that the ministry had separated his wife from him.- I wish I would have been able to talk with him about so many of the answers that I would find later - as to the why's.

He was a lawyer by profession and he loved the scriptures and he had a zeal for the Lord and a love for the people but he was caught up and taken captive in his thinking just like so many of us had been in one way or another.. He cried as he was telling me how they had separated him from his wife -and now divorced and in so much pain and grieving and an old man alone and on his own - I had last heard only that he was spoken of as being in rebellion because he wasn't willing to leave the area he was living in and had resisted moving to another state to pastor where they had made a decision he should go.

He kept asking me how I was doing and he was genuinely concerned how things had turned out for me - in his soul he was making an apology to me for what he had participated in against me - now he knew and I knew he was ever so sorry - but it was too overwhelming and devastating for him to wrap his heart and mind around .But I heard him, and I understood him and we made peace that day -not that I had held anything against him, his soul made an apology to me, not with words of an apology but the same as. But I could do nothing to be of help to him, I was still picking up my own pieces and putting my own life back together in so many areas. And he was in the midst of fresh ruin and it was just to big for me, I assured him I was Okay and I was okay, I just had a lot of things to work out. At that time all I had to offer him was my ear and my shoulder.

2013 all these years later - and they don't get it yet. It is not okay to destroy another person's relationships.

"Sexual abuse was common in churches like Anaheim, San Diego, Washington Iowa, the Valley, Brazil, the Bay Area, the Living Word Building and countless others."

I would like to know more about all of this. How is it that the cops were never called in?

Quote
Invisible
Some years after I left the church, I spoke on the phone, with one of the apostolic ministries some time in the 1990's. He cried when he told me that the ministry had separated his wife from him.- I wish I would have been able to talk with him about so many of the answers that I would find later - as to the why's.

He was a lawyer by profession and he loved the scriptures and he had a zeal for the Lord and a love for the people but he was caught up and taken captive in his thinking just like so many of us had been in one way or another.. He cried as he was telling me how they had separated him from his wife -and now divorced and in so much pain and grieving and an old man alone and on his own - I had last heard only that he was spoken of as being in rebellion because he wasn't willing to leave the area he was living in and had resisted moving to another state to pastor where they had made a decision he should go.

He kept asking me how I was doing and he was genuinely concerned how things had turned out for me - in his soul he was making an apology to me for what he had participated in against me - now he knew and I knew he was ever so sorry - but it was too overwhelming and devastating for him to wrap his heart and mind around .But I heard him, and I understood him and we made peace that day -not that I had held anything against him, his soul made an apology to me, not with words of an apology but the same as. But I could do nothing to be of help to him, I was still picking up my own pieces and putting my own life back together in so many areas. And he was in the midst of fresh ruin and it was just to big for me, I assured him I was Okay and I was okay, I just had a lot of things to work out. At that time all I had to offer him was my ear and my shoulder.

2013 all these years later - and they don't get it yet. It is not okay to destroy another person's relationships.

I knew this man well. I watched him being dismantled by those he had entrusted himself to. He gave me forewarning what was coming. When he was eventually stripped of his ministry, and no longer with his wife, I was made aware of the attitude I was to have toward him...which I never accepted. He did not diminish in my sight, nor in my wife's. The merciless treatment bestowed upon him from Marilyn and Gary finally forced me to recognize what they were really about...power, and all the ugliness that goes along with it.

"I knew this man well. I watched him being dismantled by those he had entrusted himself to. He gave me forewarning what was coming. When he was eventually stripped of his ministry, and no longer with his wife, I was made aware of the attitude I was to have toward him...which I never accepted. He did not diminish in my sight, nor in my wife's. The merciless treatment bestowed upon him from Marilyn and Gary finally forced me to recognize what they were really about...power, and all the ugliness that goes along with it."

Eventually Gary and Marilyn Hargrave are going to wish they had some friends, there is an old saying here in the South, "the sun don't shine in the same hog's @$$ all the time," meaning, there comes a time when a person realizes they have alienated too many people along the way. I can't fathom why the churches in other parts of the country put up with their garbage for this many years. There seems to be a basic lack of the spirit of the rebel I guess. Of course, "rebelliousness" is considered a bad attribute among cult elitist, and I guess the Living Word Fellowship pretty much tells us why.

The unwritten mission statement of the Living Word is "to build wealth for Gary, Marilyn and Rick". The actions of this cult suggest this. For many years, the local churches outside of LA were required to tithe 80% of their income (local tithes) directly to APCO. I suspect this is still the case, but with numbers dwindling, this amount must be dwindling as well. It made it very difficult to run a local church and perform normal maintence tasks. It demonstrated just how little care or consideration G&M have for the "little people".

PALEFACE: Who exactly is APCO? I have heard people refer to apco and didn't know who it was, but never got around to asking. Also, I heard that long after I left the Walk a word went out for people to move out west. I think I heard about it from a friend of mine that stays in touch with one of the guys and his wife that were in the church in Detroit with him back when Frances Frangepane was the pastor there. Anyway, as far as I know about the only church other than at Shiloh left east of the Mississippi River is in Washington DC. The DC church may not even be there now.

By the way, does anybody know a dude named Larry Hayes? He was in the Knoxville Tennessee church, one of the elders there. I understand he got divorced too. He had a great wife, I remember her, and had five kids. Larry was origionally from Illinoise, I do know that one of his sons boxed professionally after he grew up.

Quote Saw enough, August 13, 2013 05:52PM

"And for sure, it can be helpful for those who have left to hear that perhaps they are not blowouts or destined for judgment."

Quote Invisible, August 13, 2013 11:49PM

"He lived His life in the religious community as a free man."

I needed to hear the above. I think I've been held in bondage by (for lack of better words) "twisted scripture". I have spent much ineffective effort in throwing out that which just can't be right but this forum is bringing it together really fast.

Maybe someone can comment on the following:

Jefferson: We hold these truths to be sacred and undeniable (original rough draft).....

Franklin: We hold these truths to be self evident (edited version) .....

Lincoln: And that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

If the scriptures cannot square or live up to these lofty declarations then why should we even waste our time? I do not want to return to the old "Divine Right of Kings" nor do I want some earthly dude with special powers making decisions for me when I'm perfectly capable of making those decisions myself. If super dude prefers green it should not prohibit me from preferring red. Sometimes I worry about Earth returning to the "Dark Ages."

Some people are very "polished" at using the scriptures to sing their own tune. I think I need more intelligence to help sort through all the confusion.

I seem to have a problem finding the old factnet living Word posts. Can anyone send me a link. I can't find Living Word stuff on the website for some reason at all.

Quote :............If the scriptures cannot square or live up to these lofty declarations then why should we even waste our time? ............

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FCSLC

Hope this as a partial answer, helps toward bringing an end to some confusion - read Romans Chapter 13 - Look and see, if there is a confirmation ( in part ) to what you are looking to find and see if these instructions give you something sound to stand on. Look to see if these instructions reflect the intentions of the founders you named.