Gurdjieff groups in the SF Bay Area--mid-seventies
Posted by:
Moishe3rd
()
Date: August 07, 2007 09:43PM
Personally, I did not experience this "lack of conscience." As I noted, the incidents mentioned were the only "violent" incidents I personally witnessed in my five years with Sharon and Alex. I have read the accounts that Alex was and perhaps still is, a wildly violent egomaniac, but I cannot attest to that personally. Therefore, I have to take your word for it. Nonetheless, you seem incapable of taking my word for it...Quote
rrmoderator
Moishe3rd:
You say,Quote
Alex did once slap me during a football game in Montana and scream at me "I'm not your father!" That was interesting. Useful, at the time also. And, Sharon did once slap my wife (of 28 years now) for being rather hateful. It seemed appropriate at the time. Other than that, I believe I got in three fistfights - all based on the idea that we were supposed to punch each other out in order to further our "goals" or whatever that was called... We both appreciate the things we learned in School.
Then you say,Quote
Out of the large and varied groups of people I dealt with over the years, none of them seemed like sociopaths. Certainly not Sharon or Alex or Bob.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Sharon Gans and Alex Horn have a horrible reputation as reported in the press and by former members of their group, which has been called a "cult."
Gans has no meaningful accountability and seems to be little more than "cult leader" exploiting people through a scam, which she prefers to call a "school."
She has used members to remodel her properties, bilked them for dues to support her lavish lifestyle and broken up relationships when it suited her purposes.
Many people have been badly hurt by Gans through her group.
Though you have chosen to dismiss all this and the violence and rages asscociated with Gans/Horn, others see it all as evidence of their deeply disturbed personalities and abusive nature.
And the lack of conscience Sharon Gans and Alex Horn have displayed historically, is often associated with sociopaths.
You seem to be unable or unwilling to recognize this and prefer instead to rationalize virtually anything Gans and Horn have done, such as slapping and raging whenever they wish.
However, what you have been willing to admit places them in a far less than benign category.
And, I don't recall Sharon ever being violent or abusive.
And, they did not "slap and rage whenever they wish[ed]"
The problem I have with y'all's blanket condemnations is that, as they are not in my experience, they seem self serving to the idea that anything you personally don't like; find distasteful; or disagree with, is a cult, and therefore dangerous and disgusting.
Personally, I find the Islamist fascist death cultists who strongly desire to cut my, or anyone else's, head off, dangerous and disgusting. Most other people I can live with...
These are just people, rrmoderator, not tin gods or some kind of voodoo despots. Just people.
As you and others have pointed out, perhaps I caught them during a "good" time or lull in their behavior. It's possible.
Nonetheless, the amount of vitriol and totally blanket condemnation expressed by you and others seem a tad disproportionate.
It seems to me that claiming Alex and Sharon had, or have, these "mystical powers" to entrap and enthrall people into their "evil kingdom," makes them larger than life, more powerful, and only serves to give credence to the idea that they can, indeed, force people to do their bidding.
In never found that to be the case.
They're just people...
Gurdjieff groups in the SF Bay Area--mid-seventies
Posted by:
plotski
()
Date: August 08, 2007 02:43AM
Moishe3rd wrote:
These are just people, rrmoderator, not tin gods or some kind of voodoo despots. Just people.
As you and others have pointed out, perhaps I caught them during a "good" time or lull in their behavior. It's possible.
Nonetheless, the amount of vitriol and totally blanket condemnation expressed by you and others seem a tad disproportionate.
It seems to me that claiming Alex and Sharon had, or have, these "mystical powers" to entrap and enthrall people into their "evil kingdom," makes them larger than life, more powerful, and only serves to give credence to the idea that they can, indeed, force people to do their bidding.
In never found that to be the case.
They're just people...
But Moishe3rd, these are people with charisma and power. You don't need mystical powers when the world is full of people trying desperately to find the door to the land of Truth. Charles Manson or Adolf Hitler are just people, too. Just being a person doesn't guarantee that one is harmless or incapable of drawing vulnerable people into a web of dangerous, potentially destructive actions. No doubt some of those people who ended up in positions of power were closer to being like Sharon and Alex than like the rest of us "just people."
Yes, you are right. They are just people, but not knowing firsthand what others experienced at their hands, I find it hard to pretend they have not caused irreparable harm to hundreds or even thousands of people. I wasn't treated badly by them or anyone else in the group. I was broke, and that may have been the reason. I am unbelievably grateful that I just looked on while I was there, but I wonder why it took me so long to realize that there was something wrong with the picture.
If someone suffered because of these two, who are we to say that they should be over it by now? How do we who were treated with some modicum of respect by them even know what others have been through? If someone out there is still not healed because of their experience with Sharon and Alex, I am the last person to tell them to get on with their life.
These are just people, rrmoderator, not tin gods or some kind of voodoo despots. Just people.
As you and others have pointed out, perhaps I caught them during a "good" time or lull in their behavior. It's possible.
Nonetheless, the amount of vitriol and totally blanket condemnation expressed by you and others seem a tad disproportionate.
It seems to me that claiming Alex and Sharon had, or have, these "mystical powers" to entrap and enthrall people into their "evil kingdom," makes them larger than life, more powerful, and only serves to give credence to the idea that they can, indeed, force people to do their bidding.
In never found that to be the case.
They're just people...
But Moishe3rd, these are people with charisma and power. You don't need mystical powers when the world is full of people trying desperately to find the door to the land of Truth. Charles Manson or Adolf Hitler are just people, too. Just being a person doesn't guarantee that one is harmless or incapable of drawing vulnerable people into a web of dangerous, potentially destructive actions. No doubt some of those people who ended up in positions of power were closer to being like Sharon and Alex than like the rest of us "just people."
Yes, you are right. They are just people, but not knowing firsthand what others experienced at their hands, I find it hard to pretend they have not caused irreparable harm to hundreds or even thousands of people. I wasn't treated badly by them or anyone else in the group. I was broke, and that may have been the reason. I am unbelievably grateful that I just looked on while I was there, but I wonder why it took me so long to realize that there was something wrong with the picture.
If someone suffered because of these two, who are we to say that they should be over it by now? How do we who were treated with some modicum of respect by them even know what others have been through? If someone out there is still not healed because of their experience with Sharon and Alex, I am the last person to tell them to get on with their life.
Gurdjieff groups in the SF Bay Area--mid-seventies
Posted by:
Moishe3rd
()
Date: August 08, 2007 08:07AM
From: [esotericfreedom.blogspot.com]
Oy vey izmir...
Or, in the immortal words of someone or other - no shit Jackson!
Ladies and Gents,
I humbly apologize for my previous decent impressions of Sharon et al...
Thees peoples are nuts!
Damn!
Indeed, my old friends do seem to have gone off the deep end into the uncharted waters of stupid ass insanity.
My humble apologies.
I was just reminiscing here but now I be gone and will bother you no more wid my silly memories.
Damn!...
Be well...
Quote
Below, you find a copy of the complaint that was sent to the company that was hosting esotericfreedom.com.
It is this level of intimidation has worked for 40 years and has supported them in style.
Observe for yourself what comes up in you when you read this. For me it was that feeling of being in trouble with them... It is, in fact, a group of mechanical "I"'s that have been carefully planted in us over the years. The fear that rises up when we feel like we have done something "wrong". We were told that we were working so hard AGAINST our mechanicality. One kind of mechanicality was replaced by another. Ask yourself why this fear and paranoia was taught to us so purposefully and carefully.
Please also note, that the law firm that was retained is the same one that represents Scientology.
Go ahead, Google: Eric Lieberman and Scientology for yourself and see what comes up.
From: David Goldstein [mailto:dgoldstein@rbskl.com]
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 6:14 AMTo: abuse@isp.time.net.my
Cc: Eric Lieberman
Subject: Abusive Content at www.esotericfreedom.com
Dear Sir or Madam: Please be advised that this law firm represents Robert M. Klein, Fred Mindel, Sharon Gans, and OSG, LLC. It is our understanding that Time dotNet Berhad is the new internet service provider for the web site, www.esotericfreedom.com. This web site contains substantial personal, false, misleading, defamatory, private, abusive, harassing, threatening, and otherwise tortious material concerning our above-named clients. We emphasize to you that all of the material on the web site is posted anonymously, apparently in an effort to evade legal liability for this improper content. Please be further advised that this web site was previously hosted by a United States company, Homestead Technologies, Inc. Because of the abusive, defamatory, threatening and other improper content on this web site, Homestead removed the content from the web site, and terminated the web site approximately one week ago. However, the operator of that web site has now re-posted all the objectionable content through Time dotNet's internet hosting services.
The web site invades the privacy of our clients by posting personal information, including their photographs, and addresses and photographs of their residences. The web site seeks to incite hatred against our clients through extensive false accusations, and in the context of the content of the web site, the identification of our clients' addresses constitutes harassment, threats and attempts at intimidation. The web site is further pervaded with defamatory attacks against our clients.
As a result, we demand that you remove all objectionable content from this web site, including termination of this web site, as the actionable and abusive information cannot reasonably be separated from the web site in its entirety. We reserve all our rights against the web site owners and Time dotNet in the event that you fail to remove this material. In the event that Time dotNet is not willing at this time to shut down the web site, we insist that Time dotNet take immediate action to remove the following information:
1. The web page [www.esotericfreedom.com], which publishes the addresses and photographs of residences of our clients, and all links to such pages.
2. The four photos of Sharon Gans and Robert Klein, which appear near the top of the Home page, [www.esotericfreedom.com] and the photo of Sharon Gans that appears on the "Lineage" page, [www.esotericfreedom.com]
3. All references to Sharon Gans, Robert Klein, Fred Mindel (including all references to "Sharon," "Robert," and "Fred"), OSG, LLC., Odyssey, and the "School" (or "school") wherever they appear on any pages of the web site. 4. All identifying information concerning our clients, whether or not their actual names are used, including references to "teachers."
4. The addresses and locations that appear near the top of the Home page, which are locations at which our clients offer classes, but which are falsely and misleadingly suggested to be properties of the operators of the web site.
5. In the left column of the Home page, several private businesses that are associated with our clients are listed, which are falsely and misleadingly associated with other material on the web site. These listings are clearly designed to result in harassment and damage to private business entities, including through web search engines such as Google or Yahoo. These include Taylor Hodson, Inc., KS Designs, Inc., Consolidated Mattress, Amalgamated Mattress, and Xonel Truck Leasing. We demand their immediate removal.
6. The web site is pervaded with false, misleading and defamatory material concerning claims with respect to real or personal property of our clients. We insist that all such information, allegations, or claims be removed from the web site.
7. The section of the web site called "Our Stories," [www.esotericfreedom.com], contains approximately a dozen anonymous "stories" that are pervaded with false, misleading, and defamatory statements concerning our clients, which are too numerous to list here. Particularly as the web operators are allowing these "stories" to be posted anonymously (and for all we know were concocted by the web operators themselves), we insist that all these "stories" be removed.
8. All "links" that state, suggest, or infer that our clients participate in or are part of a "cult," or that they are unsafe or dangerous, including at [www.esotericfreedom.com] and [www.esotericfreedom.com]
Your expeditious attention and cooperation is appreciated. We look forward to your response. David B. Goldstein
Rabinowitz, Boudin, Standard, Krinsky & Lieberman, P.C.
111 Broadway, 11th Floor
New York, NY 10006-1901
212-254-1111(F) 212-674-4614
Oy vey izmir...
Or, in the immortal words of someone or other - no shit Jackson!
Ladies and Gents,
I humbly apologize for my previous decent impressions of Sharon et al...
Thees peoples are nuts!
Damn!
Indeed, my old friends do seem to have gone off the deep end into the uncharted waters of stupid ass insanity.
My humble apologies.
I was just reminiscing here but now I be gone and will bother you no more wid my silly memories.
Damn!...
Be well...
Gurdjieff groups in the SF Bay Area--mid-seventies
Posted by:
mxkitty
()
Date: August 10, 2007 12:53AM
Thomas Farber wrote about his experiences with Alex Horn in San Francisco in the book, "Tales for the Son of my Unborn Child."
Gurdjieff groups in the SF Bay Area--mid-seventies
Posted by:
karenb
()
Date: August 13, 2007 02:12AM
This is slightly offtopic but it's something I've been chewing on for a long time.
I grew up in San Francisco. I was a child there in the 80s. Reading this board has alllowed me to put together the last pieces of why everything was so weird. Most people are familiar with the dynamics of a dysfunctional family when alcohol or drugs are impeding the parents' abilities to provide for the needs of the children. I have come to realize that the *entire Bay Area* was functioning like an alcoholic or drugaddicted family in the 70s and 80s, except drugs were just one aspect of the craziness.
There were cult members' children going to school with me. My parents' social group was decimated by cults. It was like a plague, like a plague of mental illness (and of course by the time I was old enough to know about it, people were really dying of another plague).
It's been incredibly important for me to read the experiences of people abused by the Gans, and by Landmark. I think those two groups are good examples of the two types of the cult-plague - the small, esoteric, occult study group that attracts the intelligent person who should have had so much to give to the real world, and sucks them into a fantasy; and the large, corporate creator of human spambots that destroys the social fabric (and really, I would have to write a play or make a movie to adequately convey how this happens. It's horrible).
When people come on the board and say, not in so many words, "put on your big girl panties and deal, people, it was a long time ago," I want them to understand that it's not just important for cult victims to communicate their experiences to each other, it's incredibly important to people like me who were on the outside watching it all go down at an age when there is no way we could have made sense of it, even if much of the details hadn't been kept from us. And to all you people who are willing to be vulnerable to that kind of mockery: THANK YOU. It is really like I grew up in a wartorn country where people just never talk about the past, and finding this board has been like finding the stories of the survivors.
I grew up in San Francisco. I was a child there in the 80s. Reading this board has alllowed me to put together the last pieces of why everything was so weird. Most people are familiar with the dynamics of a dysfunctional family when alcohol or drugs are impeding the parents' abilities to provide for the needs of the children. I have come to realize that the *entire Bay Area* was functioning like an alcoholic or drugaddicted family in the 70s and 80s, except drugs were just one aspect of the craziness.
There were cult members' children going to school with me. My parents' social group was decimated by cults. It was like a plague, like a plague of mental illness (and of course by the time I was old enough to know about it, people were really dying of another plague).
It's been incredibly important for me to read the experiences of people abused by the Gans, and by Landmark. I think those two groups are good examples of the two types of the cult-plague - the small, esoteric, occult study group that attracts the intelligent person who should have had so much to give to the real world, and sucks them into a fantasy; and the large, corporate creator of human spambots that destroys the social fabric (and really, I would have to write a play or make a movie to adequately convey how this happens. It's horrible).
When people come on the board and say, not in so many words, "put on your big girl panties and deal, people, it was a long time ago," I want them to understand that it's not just important for cult victims to communicate their experiences to each other, it's incredibly important to people like me who were on the outside watching it all go down at an age when there is no way we could have made sense of it, even if much of the details hadn't been kept from us. And to all you people who are willing to be vulnerable to that kind of mockery: THANK YOU. It is really like I grew up in a wartorn country where people just never talk about the past, and finding this board has been like finding the stories of the survivors.
Gurdjieff groups in the SF Bay Area--mid-seventies
Posted by:
ula
()
Date: August 19, 2007 06:19AM
Quote
"mxkitty"
There may be a connection between government mind control experiments and this cult. I have suspected so for years and I'm gathering more information for corroboration of this theory.
One of the Sonoma cult's members told me (when he was very drunk and probably should have kept his mouth shut) that The Group is connected to Bohemian Grove, which is just as creepy.
[www.infowars.com]
I agree that the Bohemian Grove is creepy. I've been a member of the Subud Sonoma group for 17 years and can say there is definitely no connection to the Bohemian Grove.
Do you believe everything drunks tell you? Your "sources" do not make you sound like a very credible researcher!
Gurdjieff groups in the SF Bay Area--mid-seventies
Posted by:
ula
()
Date: August 19, 2007 06:22AM
Quote
mxkitty
There may be a connection between government mind control experiments and this cult. I have suspected so for years and I'm gathering more information for corroboration of this theory.
One of the Sonoma cult's members told me (when he was very drunk and probably should have kept his mouth shut) that The Group is connected to Bohemian Grove, which is just as creepy.
[www.infowars.com]
I agree that the Bohemian Grove is creepy. I've been a member of the Subud Sonoma group for 17 years and can say there is definitely [b:2fe71523c9]no[/b:2fe71523c9] connection to the Bohemian Grove.
Do you believe everything drunks tell you? Your "sources" do not make you sound like a very credible researcher!
Gurdjieff groups in the SF Bay Area--mid-seventies
Posted by:
karenb
()
Date: August 20, 2007 04:05AM
I'm starting to think infowars is the mind control experiment. It sure makes people paranoid and susceptible.
Gurdjieff groups in the SF Bay Area--mid-seventies
Posted by:
Lexy
()
Date: August 21, 2007 07:29AM
Thanks for your posts Karenb. Re. growing up where you did and dysfunctional families....you mentioned Alcohol and Drugs but don't forget Gambling.
My mum was addicted to it and I watched as our once gentile house became shabbier and shabbier as everything of value was sold to pay for her casino habit. She became less and less connected to the family and spent longer and longer there ('til 4am).Her moods were volatile...the stress and guilt when she had lost a lot of money turned her into a screeching harridan and just like a junkie her sense of morality and integrity was gradually worn down.
When I was 19 I met a handsome and manipulative evangelist who persuaded me to run away to his commune and join a cult.
I left his commune after 8 months but my sense of identity had been stripped away and I remained a cult member for another 30 years.
My mum was addicted to it and I watched as our once gentile house became shabbier and shabbier as everything of value was sold to pay for her casino habit. She became less and less connected to the family and spent longer and longer there ('til 4am).Her moods were volatile...the stress and guilt when she had lost a lot of money turned her into a screeching harridan and just like a junkie her sense of morality and integrity was gradually worn down.
When I was 19 I met a handsome and manipulative evangelist who persuaded me to run away to his commune and join a cult.
I left his commune after 8 months but my sense of identity had been stripped away and I remained a cult member for another 30 years.
Gurdjieff groups in the SF Bay Area--mid-seventies
Posted by:
elena
()
Date: August 21, 2007 08:19AM
Quote
karenb
This is slightly offtopic but it's something I've been chewing on for a long time.
I grew up in San Francisco. I was a child there in the 80s. Reading this board has alllowed me to put together the last pieces of why everything was so weird. Most people are familiar with the dynamics of a dysfunctional family when alcohol or drugs are impeding the parents' abilities to provide for the needs of the children. I have come to realize that the *entire Bay Area* was functioning like an alcoholic or drugaddicted family in the 70s and 80s, except drugs were just one aspect of the craziness.
There were cult members' children going to school with me. My parents' social group was decimated by cults. It was like a plague, like a plague of mental illness (and of course by the time I was old enough to know about it, people were really dying of another plague).
It's been incredibly important for me to read the experiences of people abused by the Gans, and by Landmark. I think those two groups are good examples of the two types of the cult-plague - the small, esoteric, occult study group that attracts the intelligent person who should have had so much to give to the real world, and sucks them into a fantasy; and the large, corporate creator of human spambots that destroys the social fabric (and really, I would have to write a play or make a movie to adequately convey how this happens. It's horrible).
When people come on the board and say, not in so many words, "put on your big girl panties and deal, people, it was a long time ago," I want them to understand that it's not just important for cult victims to communicate their experiences to each other, it's incredibly important to people like me who were on the outside watching it all go down at an age when there is no way we could have made sense of it, even if much of the details hadn't been kept from us. And to all you people who are willing to be vulnerable to that kind of mockery: THANK YOU. It is really like I grew up in a wartorn country where people just never talk about the past, and finding this board has been like finding the stories of the survivors.
What you've written is so important, Karen. As you know, the reverberations are continuing to echo around the planet and new groups of victims wash up here continually as soon as one of these psycho-scammers goes into operation in some new territory. Certainly the most information should be coming from "ground zero" (San Francisco), but it's strangely quiet and few find their way to the internet to talk about what happened when the psycho-social-spiritual rug was pulled out from under them. It seems as though more victims show up from New Zealand and South Africa than from California. Funny, huh? That the very abusers programmed their victims into silence in the same way they programmed them into fantasy lives, fantastic destinies, and improbable attainment. I suspect they are like child abusers who tell their victims bad things will happen to their parents if they ever tell. I'm suspicious that many of these people are still living in fear and don't even know why. It doesn't take much, in a philosophical way, to re-program people into anxious, obedient, tractable robots. Just scare them a little and give them a way to relieve the stress with your pseudo-psycho-nostrums.
What sort of play or movie were you contemplating?
Ellen
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