This is probably answered some where else but I have looked and couldn't find it. As someone who is working on deleting the influence this organisation had in my life I have a few questions or thoughts that maybe someone you who have either been there or have assisted other may be able to help with.

Is it ever truely possible to de-programme yourself?

How do you begin to think critically, to make decisions, to be able to decide what is right what is wrong?

I can't help but wonder how so many seemingly intelligent highly education, successful people can get so sucked in by this organisation. How did I get so sucked in?

For further insights, take a look at this thread and see if any of the material rings a bell for you.

[board.culteducation.com]

Quote

Is it ever truely possible to de-programme yourself?

How do you begin to think critically, to make decisions, to be able to decide what is right what is wrong?

I can't help but wonder how so many seemingly intelligent highly education, successful people can get so sucked in by this organisation. How did I get so sucked in?

I've heard it is possible to deprogram oneself, but studies have shown that speaking with a professional deprogrammer can really cut recovery time. I believe education is the first step -- read up on as much as you can here, and maybe order a couple of books -- "Battle for the Mind" by William Sargant, for example, or "Cults in our Midst" by Margaret Singer.

I think the more you read and learn, the more your critical decision-making skills will return. They're returning already, as evidenced by the fact that you've left LEC and come here to find information.

Coercive groups target intelligent individuals, so it's not surprising that you and your friends are in that group.

You're sucked in very gradually, over a period of time. Every little instance where you surrender control adds up. Even little things like wearing a name tag, following rules to speak into a microphone, arriving exactly on time, not getting up to pee when you have to, not taking aspirin when you have a headache, etc. , gradually erode your self-reliance and self-confidence. The more you agree to the LEC "rules," the more power you give over to the "leader."

It's not unlike an abusive marriage, where a partner is drawn in at first by somone's seeming love and acceptance...it's only gradually, over time, that the abusive person begins to show his or her true colors, becoming angry over little things, becoming more and more controlling, demanding more and more of your time, cutting you off from friends and family...by the time the abusive partner actually strikes out and hits his/her mate, they're "in love" and in too deep to realize what's happened.

Remember, at first you only agreed to attend an introductory meeting. Then you only agreed to attend the Forum. But little by little, as you gave up control, you agreed to more seminars....then volunteering/assisting...and finally to a paid position in the organization. You had no idea what you were really getting into in the beginning.

Hi Sonnie and welcome to the board :)

I would just like to say that you ARE doing well in your recovery. Your posts are well written and logically presented.

You are also asking questions. Your critical thought processes are working.

Others have suggested that you read as much as you can and this is good.

It is a temptation to judge oneself as to "how did I allow myself to get sucked in". There is a theory that the higher a person's intelligence is the more they get sucked in so, as you were a staffer, you must be very intelligent. The Landmark programming runs better in a mind that is well connected, just like how a piece of software runs better on a big computer.

So, my first piece of advice is: Do not blame yourself!

I have written a piece on this board about the two psychological processes that operate in tandum in the Forum. There are processes responsible for the euthoria and processes responsible for the adoption of the LE philosophy. The ingenious design of the Forum makes the participant think that the euthoria is connected to his/her new found philosophy which re-enforces the philosophy further because it "feels" rather than "thinks" good. Understanding this may also help you not to blame yourself. My post is the third one in this thread:
[b:188e6bd7d9]What makes someone NOT susceptible to Landmark?[/b:188e6bd7d9]
[board.culteducation.com]


Glam also recommends the study on Lifespring as do I. My ex-g/f said that 97% of it related to LE.

De-programming with a professional will help you more too but this must be right for you in your time.

You are going to be fine. :D

Oz

Thank you for your repsonses and thank you for the welcome Oz, I am reading a lot of information at the moment and am getting a cross point of views regarding Landmark Education.

The counsellor I was/am seeing is not trained nor has any experience in dealing with LGAT. I dont see him regulary mainly due to work only paying a certain number of sessions but he is available if I require. I was referred to a counsellor who has experience with Landmark and I went to see him and found he was the on call pyschiatrist for the Landmark office I was employed in so that one went out the window.

As far as I know there are no other counsellors/psychologists who are trained or have experience in this.

I am limited in what resources are available to me (outside of the internet) simply because of where I live. ( not in the USA Or UK) Although I am going to go to the main library this weekend to see if they have of the books I have been recommended

Although there are a few people I can talk to who are ex- landmark there are few who did more then the landmark forum so their experience is different from mine and for some of them they cannot comprehend the continuous manipulation and breaking of a person.

The one thing I really do struggle with is changing the way my thoughts/speach automatically regurgitate Landmark. That is when someone say something negitive my automatic response is to defend landmark.

the distinctions/techonolgy is so inground into my thoughts and actions and interactions that there are so many times when I dont even notice that I am doing it.

Hello Sonnie_dee

Welcome :)

What triggered you to walk away from Landmark?
What caused you to start doubting and looking for answers?
What questions went through your head and why?

Hi Sonnie,

I understand that you are not in the UK or USA and you are seeking professional help. I am writing from Sydney, Australia if that is any help. I am not a counsellor.

However, the network of professionals in cult recovery appear to know each other throughout the world to some extent and the USA seems to be the centre of it.

To get started, I would suggest you make some overseas phone calls to the USA to inquire on:
1. The type of assistance you may need;
2. Referral in your city/country.

I found Rick Ross most helpful over the phone last year.

I also rang Wellspring
[wellspringretreat.org]
Wellspring is an org. set up by ex-cult members who are also registered mental health workers. They were able to refer me to a psychologist in Sydney. This is a good place to start as they have a wealth of experience working with ex-LE people.Their phone number is on the website.

[b:8dbb273927]Some points on recovery:[/b:8dbb273927]
1. If you find a psychologist/ counsellor and they seem fixated on working with you as to why you joined LE - then this is the wrong therapist. People don't wake up one morning and say to themselves: "I am going to join a cult today". These groups are wolfs in sheeps' clothing so working out the "whys" in this area is not necessarily therapeutic.

2. A good counsellor will put you in the driving seat of your own healing.

3. A good counsellor will work with you on your LE experience and will only go where you want to go. Not everything in your life needs to be unravelled as LE and other cults demand.

4. A good counsellor will not impose their own philosophy or beliefs upon you.

5. Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, (CBT), has had good results in assisting clients who have been in LE as it deals with giving you the tools to start firing up your reasoning and logic which then allows YOU to determine what beliefs or values do not support you.

6. Another area of healing is in the area of philisophical frame of reference. LE consists of a mix of existential philosophies that have been distorted. At some time, it may be good for you to explore any beliefs/faith/religion that you had prior to joining LE.

7. Be gentle with yourself and know that you are an individual and a very special person.

[b:8dbb273927]Where you are now:[/b:8dbb273927]
The regurgitating of thoughts and speach will disipate over time. One way to overcome this is to write these thoughts and words down. With regard to the words, look up the dictionary meanings and write them down along side the LE meaning. The proper meaning will in time overide the LE meaning. Pace yourself in this task.

The technology - you have already come along way in knowing that at times your thoughts and actions are underpined by this. Your awareness will increase each day.

Finally - there is the emotional side of all this pain. Please feel free to offload here but family and friends are good too.

I hope that some of this is of help. You are going to get through this!

Oz

Hi,

After I left LGAT, people around me refused to think that it was the workshop that gave me heart pain. People began to say things like my heart pain was caused by my dog, my drinking problem, and my inability to handle pressure. They would say that, with so many people attending the workshop, why am I the only one causing troubles.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. I went to the hospital because, besides heart pain, I wanted to know that if I was fit to take the long distance flight to Africa. But, until that last evening, even though I questioned the method of LGAT teaching, I was not about to leave. I had no alcohol drinks at all in the entire week of the workshop. There was no indications that told me to leave LGAT. I was expected to graduate from the course and worked for the person who introduced me to the forum. But something went bizarre that night.

After harassed by leaders of the group until midnight, I was about to write my final essays as we need to write essays every night. They harassed me by asking me to say some funny phrases while I had water in my mouth. Like overbreathing, I choked in many occasions. But they said that it was very funny and people enjoyed watching me. Also, people would come and ask me to sign up for the next course. In addition to that, there were several people came up to me and said that they had similar personalities like me. We kept talking until midnight. I did feel intimidated but I was too busy handling all these situations in a night that I had no time to make clear decisions.

But after I began to think what happened during Osho overbreathing and a night of harassments, I began to aware the agenda of the workshop. Because overbreathing required people to follow the hypnotic words from the instructor, I had no chance to scream and shout during the exercise. Just breath heavily and slowly alternatively. Something wasn't right. While I was breathing according to the instruction, I heard several people shouting and screaming. While my leader said that I was doing a fantastic job, several people obviously were doing something else. I heard a woman crying so loud and fierce and I heard others crying. I even had a girl next to me pushing me to breath. The overbreathing exercise took almost an hour with my eyes closed. So I can only hear the environment and my heavy breathing. But certainly some people weren't doing the overbreathing.

Just after midnight, by a chance, I talked to a person whom I disliked in the course. It was also her first time. We were separated throughout the whole time and I rarely had a chance to talk to her. Until that night, I did not intend to do so. So when I talked to the person I dislike, she told me that she felt the same thing. Those people crying and screaming had attended a previous workshop. After exchanging various information, I discovered several key points that the leaders had lied to me - intentionally - throughout the course. The leader tried to influence my emotion by cheating. Obviously I was fooled.

We talked until 2:00AM and I left the workshop at 4:00AM. I went to a hospital at 8:00AM after I asked my wife to politely tell LGAT leaders of my departure. I was given heat pills in the emergency room at 10:00AM after several diagnostic. I had a heart surgery at 1:00PM. I was in the intensive care room around 5:00pm without conscious.

I think that eventually time would tell whether LGAT had effects on those so called "success people". While some may consider them success, I do have to ask people to think again the authenticity of their "success" stories.

Hsuchi

What triggered my leaving landmark quite simply was that I was failing, I believed that I was completely to blame for everything that was going wrong in our office. I believed that the reason our office was not making money was because I was not "causing"myself to be successful. (the fact that there were other staff and seminar leaders did not come into these thoughts). I was getting coaching daily by my manager, the regional manager, the Introduction leader body leader, the landmark forum leader responsible for the region, any other leader who was in the office plus the particpants of the leadership courses.

I was told I was failing and causing the centre to go under, I was told I needed to cause a breakthrough.

I was working 9am to midnight most days, I did not take breaks, I was called into the office most sundays so did not get a day off. The one thing they do not tell you when you become staff is that your role is designed for 4 to 6 people. You can not succeed. But you will be coached as if this is completely your own fault for not succeeding.

I was exhausted but didn't recognise it because I had been that way for so long. it was just a normal feeling.

I got very sick and all the time I was coached by everyone about how I was causing myself to be sick. People challenged me to not take medication/treatment. I collapsed one day while up at my parents. I think I scared me as much as I did them.

My parents begged me to get a job that would give me a chance to get well. So I took a job that did not involve much in the way of mind power and who were willing to let me start part time moving to full time after 3 months.

When i was offered that job and told my centre manager that I was completing, I was told by my centre manager that I was selfish and underhand in my practices. I was told by one landmark forum leader that I was never going to get anywhere until i broke through what was holding me back. I was covertly agreesive and manipulative (to me this was the worse kind of thing I could be told about myself)

Soon after resigning and starting at the new job I got very depressed and suicidal. I never at that stage made the connection between landmark and the overwhelm. I had been running on adrenalin for so long that when I wasn't it was a huge drop. That and that continual reminders of how I was failing and causing the centre to fail.

I had doubts about many things about LEC while on staff but was never able verbalise or express them because then I would have to have more coaching. It was so drummed into me about what landmark was or wasn't when I had doubts I defended myself against them. if that makes any sense.

Because of the depression and suicidal thoughts my parents suggested I talk to my new manager and discuss what I could do in my new job to make it work for me and the company. The company offered counselling along with shorter days. It was during this counselling that I really began to see the links between my participation in Landmark and my current psychological state.

Oz, thank you for your words. I am close to where you are, I'm in NZ. I am very thankfull that one of my friends told me about this site. there is a lot of very useful information that is not available else where so easily and in every day language

I am lucky to have some friends who didn't ditch me and my family is always there. My family and most of the friends do not want to talk about landmark at all but i have some who do so they are there if i need.

[www.blgoldberg.com]