A close friend of our family was brought into Landmark by his girlfriend. He attended the forum this past weekend and called me on Monday morning. It was as if he was a different person, he kept saying "it was everything and it was nothing" over and over. After I hung up, I took a crash course at culteducation.com, learned that he had a graduation coming on Tuesday night and figured we were going to get hit hard with this over the next 24 hours. I was right. On Monday afternoon, he went after my husband and another friend, on Tuesday, he gave up on them and came back to me through email. He started out his emails saying it's not a cult or brainwashing. He kept writing nothing and everything and that he got his life back and so on. This was my reply to him:

[i:b54cf05ede]Cult is a really bad word, it scares the sh*t out of people. The forum that you just went to is designed to keep you in a packed room and limit your freedom while being subjected to a very influential person. In that setting, human nature takes over and compels people to conform and let go. Its very orchestrated to make a person feel ostracized if they're not getting it. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, just that it's extremely effective, and combined with building a person back up after they've felt their lowest, there is usually a tremendous feeling of well-being and freedom after it's over plus a compelling need to return.

Tonight, you have a graduation, but it's purpose it to reward you for bringing new people to sign up and pay for the course. You'll probably be ok with how you're treated if you don't find anyone to go, but there are a lot of people that you were with this weekend that are feeling tremendous pressure because they haven't gotten anyone to agree to go.

If you didn't go tonight, you'd feel guilt and your self-worth would start going downhill really fast. You wouldn't be able to face (girlfriend's name), you'd feel like your whole world was falling apart. Along with that, you wouldn't be able to answer your phone because someone would be calling to find out why you didn't come. There are a few reasons for this, 1. you were brought into it by someone you love and care for and you'd feel that you were letting them down once again, and 2. you've been given hypnotic messages that make you feel great right now and you need to hear those particular words again in order to keep that feeling from fading.

The whole point of Landmark is to make money for the corporation. They're doing well because they're offering something that makes people feel good and compelled to keep going, plus they aren't taking a life's savings - it's usually a manageable amount of money for most people. If this was just an organization or a group that really wanted you to be happy and get the most out of your life, there wouldn't be the overwhelming feeling that you need others to go, you'd maybe continue going, feeling good and moving one with your life, or just apply the things you learned this past weekend to your life and never attend another thing. Think about it, except for this past weekend, everything from this point on is to get others to go, and to reinspire you with that feeling.

The unfortunate thing is that they get you to try to bring the people that mean the most to you, and tell you that if they're unwilling to go, they were not someone you needed in your life, but to keep working on them. A person's relationships become jaded with that undertone thereby rendering them meaningless without it, reinforcing that they really weren't people you needed in your life to begin with.

Ask yourself these questions.. would you still be able to continue your relationship with (girlfriend's name) if you didn't go tonight and if you didn't go ever again? Could she ever be happy with a person who wasn't part of this? How many times have you heard these words in the past 5 days: initiated, get it, understanding your rackets, filters, breakthroughs, nothing and everything, taking a stand, and authentic? Were you told to have anyone that you were bringing tonight ride with you?

I'm feeling horrible right now because I didn't realize what this was until you called yesterday - I had always thought that (girlfriend's name) was just going to self-improvement classes. The only thing I can compare it to from my end is watching someone drown and not being able to do anything about it.

What I want you to know is that (my husband's name) and I care about you and love you and your family, and I know that nothing I wrote here will make any sense to you right now. Just please be careful - the one thing that EVERYONE admires about you is that you were true to yourself and you had your own opinions, and that was part of you long before 10-1-04.[/i:b54cf05ede]

I don't know if I did the right thing, I didn't have enough time to figure out what I should say. There is no way I would ever attend anything like Landmark because I saw my mother and stepfather get caught up in a fundamentalist Christian sect when I was a child, my brothers and I were beat for our sins - my stepfather was convinced that he wasn't being sucessful at work because of our sins (something about the sins of the family and the father being punished - really warped stuff).

Our friend went to his graduation last night and I'm assuming he is now feeling awful for not bringing anyone to join. In the middle of the night last night, he went after his parents through email - his mother wrote to me today telling me about this beautiful letter she got from him and how it's the first time he's ever opened up about his brother's death.

I don't know if I'm becomming paranoid because of all I've read here, but I feel that it's a ploy to get her to go to Landmark, like he is now desparate because he didn't bring anyone last night. If his mother went, I feel it would be devastating because she's recovering from breast cancer and relies on her support group - what if she brought all those people in to Landmark, what if they were told they asked for cancer?

I don't know why I am so upset about all this, it's all I've been thinking about since Monday morning. I feel like it's my obligation to get him to stay away from Landmark, and I don't know why. Does anyone have any advice? Is it better to just let it run it's course or to invest the time and energy to try help them out of it? I feel like we've lost a friend either way. Our children are close, my husband works with him, and so on. It just boggles my mind that something like this could be affecting so many people who aren't even part of it.

Thank you to anyone who takes the time to read this.

I think you did the right thing. A friend of mine got involved with Landmark recently -- I pondered whether I should say anything to him. I decided in the end that he was too headstrong for me to make any impact (I don't have the benefit of the controlled environment and ability to induce sleep deprivation after all ;) ) -- but now I wonder if [i:f0f3052e4a]I[/i:f0f3052e4a] did the right thing.

What's even more important perhaps is to warn others who might be affected, if you can. I'm so glad that I bothered to research this on the internet, otherwise I'd've gone along to one of his introductory seminars. I'm still nervous -- we're supposed to see him and his girlfriend soonish, and from all I've heard I can only think that she's part of it as well. I keep rehearsing lines in my head, anticipating a high pressure sales pitch. I'm still worried that it will become a big issue when we see him.

Hi, Lanagae:

First, let me say your friend is very lucky to have you on his side. Also, I think it's great how much you found out so quickly, and how concerned you are and willing to help a friend in need.

I had the same questions as you...should I let this run its course? Should I try to help? People assured me that I was right to be concerned and should stick by my friend and try to help if I could. After all, they could just get more deeply involved and spend more and more money.

I'm not sure if your email will help (please let us know if it did), because your friend just might not be able to hear criticism of Landmark right now. But it may very well have helped or at least got him thinking.

I'm also concerned about his mom. Have you written back to her? Perhaps you could share information from this site with her to educated her a bit before she gets caught up in Landmark herself.

I've heard that it may be possible to get people to listen to information about groups similar to Landmark, because they don't feel you're attacking their new "beliefs," and that might help them put two and two together. Take a look at the psychological study of Lifespring training here:

[www.culteducation.com]

Also, you may want to look at info about Scientology:

[www.culteducation.com]

And this site is a very good explanation of the history of persuasion:

[www.ctyme.com]

I know someone who managed to get his girlfriend out of a similar LGAT by showing her Steve Hassan's BITE model:

[www.freedomofmind.com]

Hopefully some of this will help. Many of us here have been through an experience similar to yours...hang in there!

Glam

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Savernake
I'm still nervous -- we're supposed to see him and his girlfriend soonish, and from all I've heard I can only think that she's part of it as well. I keep rehearsing lines in my head, anticipating a high pressure sales pitch. I'm still worried that it will become a big issue when we see him.

Thank you savernake, doesn't this just make you feel crazy? Now we, who aren't part of this, have anxiety about seeing our friends because we know what's coming next. Good luck with your friend too.

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glam
I'm not sure if your email will help (please let us know if it did), because your friend just might not be able to hear criticism of Landmark right now. But it may very well have helped or at least got him thinking.

I'm also concerned about his mom. Have you written back to her? Perhaps you could share information from this site with her to educated her a bit before she gets caught up in Landmark herself.
Glam

Thank you Glam, I really appreciate the links, and I'll read everything.

My email didn't help, he said he'd read all the negative things about Landmark prior to going to the forum and it was just a pep talk and now that he has "the coach" he can move on with his life, and then went on to say how he couldn't describe it, how it gave him his life, how the money didn't matter because he "got his life," it was nothing and it was everything. I knew I hadn't gotten through because the reply started with this phrase:

None of what you say is wrong nor is any of it true, it is what it is and I chose to make it what I want.

(I don't mean to be cynical, but that stupid statement makes me want to laugh and throw up at the same time - this came out of a guy who's never written an email with more than 4 words)

He still, at that point, couldn't accept that I would not go to his graduation. I replied asking him not to go to the graduation, that now that he's gotten it, the rest was just about having others get it, so if he knew what he was getting into all along, he'd stop there and just enjoy the benefit. Haven't heard from him since and he's avoiding my husband and their other friend, they all work together, they said he's been very business-like, refusing lunch invitations yesterday and today. The other guy's ex-wife got into something similar, and he tried to explain to him how this sort of system works and that Landmark wasn't some unique thing that had to be experienced - that there were lots of programs identical to it.

I'm so grateful for this site, because now I at least know what's going on. I think it pissed him off that we could script everything he was going to do and say on Tuesday. We didn't know that he'd shut us all out after graduation though.

Do you know how long it takes before they need to start finding people to attend an introduction again? We are the only friends he has. What happens to Landmark clients who don't have anyone to bring into it? I get the sense from the message board that they are belittled, I can't see him putting up with that for very long. His girlfriend doesn't have any friends, so if the two of them continue Landmark, I can't see how they'd be worth anything to them if it's just the two of them (I got this sense from reading everything "Guy" wrote). I mean, I understand that they'd be revenue for the other courses, but that's it.

I still continue to be worried about his mom. She's so thrilled with the emails and phone calls from him right now that I have to be careful. I sent her links to this site, and told her to watch out for any pressure to attend it too. She replied with, "if I thought he was headed for big trouble I would give my life to head him off."

I'm new to this, but I think that our friend, when he says he investigated it prior, saw the statements from people that said stuff like just go to the forum, stay aware, get what you can from it and then don't do any more. That seems far more dangerous to me because everyone likes to think that they can't be taken in so it's almost a challenge. I don't get it though, you'd think the person who writes or posts that would want the credit for brining the person in.

Hi, lanajae:

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Do you know how long it takes before they need to start finding people to attend an introduction again? We are the only friends he has. What happens to Landmark clients who don't have anyone to bring into it? I get the sense from the message board that they are belittled, I can't see him putting up with that for very long. His girlfriend doesn't have any friends, so if the two of them continue Landmark, I can't see how they'd be worth anything to them if it's just the two of them (I got this sense from reading everything "Guy" wrote). I mean, I understand that they'd be revenue for the other courses, but that's it.

I believe there's always pressure to enroll others, but it seems my friend was especially pressured after certain meetings. I believe every so often they really give a big push to getting more people enrolled. And although your friend may not be worth as much if he can't get others enrolled, Landmark will still try to squeeze as much money as possible out of him. Also, he may try to enroll people he doesn't know well (there's a guy here at work who's trying to enroll people, too). And, if his significant other is involved, they may be feeding off each other and believe they have a "new, special connection" with each other thanks to Landmark. Unfortunately, my friend got his wife, mom, siblings and several friends involved. I'd hate to see that happen in your situation, because then you have a whole mass of people feeding off each other and it's even easier for them to cut off "nonbelievers" like us.

I've been trying to be more open and not so negative about Landmark with my friend. Although it's not helping him leave yet, it does make him feel very comfortable around me, and he's shared a lot of details that are supposed to be kept secret.

I've heard you should talk about happy times before Landmark to bring out the "true" self and win back your friend's trust. It's important for him to know there are people outside of Landmark who still care for him, even if he doesn't seem to appreciate it now. So the first step is really just to be friendly and try to get back into his good graces -- WITHOUT supporting or getting involved with Landmark.

Have you read the section on coping here?

[www.culteducation.com]

Also, there are sample chapters of Steve Hassan's new book, "Releasing the Bonds," available online here:

[www.freedomofmind.com]

"Ad hoc, ad loc, and quid pro quo...So little time, so much to know..."
-Jeremy Hillary Boob

If it helps, I've found that if my friend is away from Landmark for a time, the effects seem to wear off. At one point he was too busy to attend any meetings for about 2 weeks, and he was thisclose to quitting, but they convinced him to come back for "one more meeting."

Glam

Very good advice, I am going to follow it. I did read coping, but not until after I had the final email exchange with him. I've been reading the freedomofmind.com site today.

I'm going to have to cool down for a few days before I try to have any conversations with him.

Looking back, I recall there have been times when his girlfriend hasn't asked me to come to one of her Landmark meetings, then other times when she seemed wound up and that that was the only thing on her mind. It fits with what you wrote about your friend, so it's makes it all seem a little more hopeful.

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I think that our friend, when he says he investigated it prior, saw the statements from people that said stuff like just go to the forum, stay aware, get what you can from it and then don't do any more. [i:0989c20c8a]That seems far more dangerous to me because everyone likes to think that they can't be taken in so it's almost a challenge. [/i:0989c20c8a]

You're on to something important. Some of the members who correspond on the RR.com board have wondered if this is a new recruitment strategy:

'Just give it a try. Take what benefits you and ignore the rest.'

This is similar to the old 12 step proverb of 'Take what you like and leave the rest.'

Big difference is, the 12 step meetings where this principle originated are structured quite differently from LGATs. Unlike LGATs 12 step meetings are non profit.

Twelve step meetings last 1.5 to 2 hours and are not multi-day events. They are usually situated in a rented room and very little is done to change the room, beyond setting up chairs in a circle, a table for literature and refreshments. You're not kept up past bed time, and while the meetings follow a format, you're not subjected to the coniditions described by Drew Kopp in his analysis of the room set up.

And, above all, the 12 step motto is, [b:0989c20c8a]attraction not promotion[/b:0989c20c8a]. If someone doesnt attend meetings, they are not pursued by telephone calls.

What people dont understand is in problematic LGATs you are in a physical setting quite different from that of a 12 step meeting.

When you're in an LGAT setting in which you're subjected to covert physical and social stressors--in an environment like that, [i:0989c20c8a]you're too tired and confused to activate the critical thinking needed to 'take what you like and leave the rest.'[/i:0989c20c8a]

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corboy

You're on to something important. Some of the members who correspond on the RR.com board have wondered if this is a new recruitment strategy:

'Just give it a try. Take what benefits you and ignore the rest.'

I wonder if people are even aware that they are recruiting when they say that. I doubt it, but it would be interesting to know if this idea is planted or if it's a natural defense to try to set yourself apart from the 'rest of them.'

I am curious to know how the top level people, who are actually making money from this, insulate themselves from the same techniques that catch everyone else. Are they sociopaths?

I have some more questions to throw out if anyone can answer..

Is the double-talk language something that comes from hypnotic suggestion? Why aren't these people able to see how stupid it sounds to say "it's everything and it's nothing," "what you said is not wrong nor is is right, it is what it is," "I got everything from it and yet I got nothing," "I knew all this before, yet I didn't know anything," "I am the same person I was before I went, but now I am transformed."

I mean, sheesh, how powerful is this, that it can take intelligent people and make them say stuff like that?

The other question is, when they say they can't tell you what it is, you have to see for yourself (or whatever) is it because they don't know or because they're told to say that? I read the personal stories and got the basic thing, which I think is that you're taught to disassociate strong feelings tied to tragic or painful events in your past. So what - I mean, how is that a breakthrough? (if that is [i:e401ed8204]the[/i:e401ed8204] breakthrough, I don't know) Most people are capable of doing that on their own through the natural grief process and time. Are they told they never dealt with it or something?

I really appreciate all the time everyone has taken to respond to me. I don't know how you do it, it's very depressing from my end. I really hated having to learn about this subject, but I'm glad I did - I will be having a good discussion with my kids so they know how to protect themselves. I've asked everyone I've seen in the last few days if they've ever heard of Landmark and all have said no, so I guess that's a good sign - hopefully if they're ever approached, they'll investigate before they agree.

Certain kinds of dissociation (disruption of normal conscious awareness) can be confused with spiritual breakthrough and healing, if a person is under pressure and in social situations where they're encouraged to get confused. Hope found this article. See if it has some clues:

[www.depersonalization.info]

You asked whether the double talk is a result of hypnotic suggestion?


(quote) [i:37c109c021]Is the double-talk language something that comes from hypnotic suggestion? Why aren't these people able to see how stupid it sounds to say "it's everything and it's nothing," "what you said is not wrong nor is is right, it is what it is," "I got everything from it and yet I got nothing," "I knew all this before, yet I didn't know anything," "I am the same person I was before I went, but now I am transformed."

I mean, sheesh, how powerful is this, that it can take intelligent people and make them say stuff like that? [/i:37c109c021](unquote)

Thats another area worth exploring. The double talk may be the result of something called trance logic, in which you're NOT aware that you're saying something illogical and you're not aware of doing something that violates ethical standards you held prior to participation in a problematic group.

There is a state of mind called 'trance logic' that people shift into when in hypnotic trance. * You retain adult level verbal ability, and retain adult level capacity to rationalize, but your cognitive level regressed from adult logic to a child's level.

Here is some information about trance logic:

2.3[i:37c109c021]. [b:37c109c021]What is Trance Logic? [/b:37c109c021]

Trance logic refers to a set of characteristics of mental functioning that are specifically found in 'deep trance' phenomena of hypnosis, as opposed to 'light trance,' which has not even reliable subjective correlates and cannot really be distinguished from simulation experimentally. These characteristics involve particularly an alteration in language processing.

*Words, in trance logic, are interpreted much more literally, communication being conveyed by focusing on words themselves rather than ideas. There is also an associated decrease in critical judgment of language being processed, and an increased tolerance for incongruity.*

It is in some ways as if the subject were like a small child with very limited experience to use in interpreting ideas conveyed by the hypnotist. There also is a shift toward what psychoanalysts call 'primary process' thinking, or thinking in terms of images and symbols more than words; *an increased availability of affect; and other characteristics that simulators do not consistently reproduce.

(Which means you're vulnerable--another reason why only trained, highly ethical persons are supposed to do trance induction, and only after they've evaluated you to see if its the best intervention, compared with other alternatives--the prime directive in professionalism is seek to do no harm, maximize benefit and mimize risk--Corboy)

This consistent set of characteristics of deep trance has been one of the influences leading to several kinds of theories of what trance actually involves:

Partly because language skills are 'child-like,' and meaningful long forgotten childhood memories can apparently sometimes be vividly re-experienced (see the later section on the reliability of recall in hypnosis) the theory that trance generally represents some kind of psychological regression to an earlier developmental stage has long been popular in some circles.

*Partly because the individual appears to become disconnected somehow with the usual context they use to evaluate ideas*, a cognitive dissociation theory arose. (Also partly because of anomalies involving apparent multiple simultaneous 'intentions.')

Partly because the cues prompting the subject's behavior become more internal and progressively more obscure to an outside observer, trance has been viewed as 'contact with the unconscious mind.'

Largely because some of the characteristics of trance logic correlate well with some of those discovered to be specialized in many people in the non-dominant cerebral hemisphere, there is also a popular theory that deep trance involves a somehow selective use of one hemisphere of the brain, or in the most simplified version of this theory, a 'putting to sleep' somehow of the dominant (language specialized) hemisphere. Some brain scientists strongly disagree with this view, emphasizing the complex interdependence of the brain hemispheres even in typical hypnotic-type situations. [/i:37c109c021]

[www.hypnosis.com]

Speculation: What this means in computer terminology is the applications remain the same but you shift to a more primitive operating system.

In practice, what this means is that someone can tolerate contradictory beliefs when in a state of trance logic [b:37c109c021]without [/b:37c109c021]the feeling of discomfort/ cognitive dissonance a person operating from adult cognitive awareness would otherwise experience.

[i:37c109c021]In trance logic, its as though one's 'inconsistency detector/bullshit detector' has been disabled. People's boundaries can be more easily breached. [/i:37c109c021]

Life can seem more open, fluid and magical when you're in trance logic, making it an attractive state for certain people. Problem is your awareness is that of a young child, but with an adult's capacity for verbal rationalization.

This trance logic state is also self centered--another characteristic of early childhood. For little children, wish equals reality.

If a problematic LGAT knowingly or unknowingly fosters trance logic, people may be persuaded to believe they've been transformed and their consciousness expanded, when what has perhaps happened is their consciousness has constricted. Perhaps too, theve lost their capacity to apply objectivity and critical thinking to the LGAT experience itself.

And perhaps a person who has been thus affected by a problematic LGAT may retain capacity for adult logic and conscious thinking in many other areas--useful if they are to keep earning an living and generating revenue. Trance logic might be segregated to just one portion of a person's mind--but can influence his or her decision making in more subtle, pervasive ways.

First, it is possible that many LGAT subjects enter trance logic and lose their capacity for adult logic and critical thinking in relation to their LGAT. To preserve the high that they cherish, they must cling to trance logic and to the social venue which generated it. Yet they may be able to continue applying critical thinking to non-LGAT related matters.

The problem is, if an LGAT teaches you to link your feeling of being high with recruiting others to get involved, your trance logic/lack of criticla thinking in relation to the LGAT may then intrude into other social situations.

When certain persons show up on RR.com and launch vicious attacks, they may be desperately defending their own feeling of being cured--a feeling that is illusory, otherwise it would not require such an investment of effort.

If you cannot apply critical thinking to your LGAT, you' may have difficulty applying ethics to that LGAT. Applying ethics requires adult critical thinking skills--which are apparently affected and sometimes disabled by trance logic

If people cannot be objective in relation to their involvement with the LGAT, this also means they perhaps

1) cannot imagine the LGAT could harm them or anyone else

2) they may not be able to apply common courtesy or adult level professional ethics to their LGAT involvement.

An otherwise high functioning person may have a covert area of trance logic in relation to their involvment with an LGAT or some other leader or group and will be unable to apply adult insight to their commitment.

They may perhaps see no contradiction between moral standards they've learned prior to exposure to thier LGAT and the pressure put on them to recruit others - or defend the LGAT from outside critics!

A health care professional or someone in a position of authority may feel no qualms violating the ethics of their profession bu prosyletizing to patients or pressuring lower ranking employees to get involved with an LGAT--or persuading thier Human Resources Department that the LGAT is a legitimate resource for employee skill development. In trance logic, the commitment [u:37c109c021]feels [/u:37c109c021]legitimate, and that is sufficient. Fact checking and ethics may become irrelevant.

This extended speculation may offer one way to explain how how someone can have the finest intentions and be led to do harmful things.

Finally, it is possible that otherwise kind and courteous persons, will in relation to their beloved LGAT, see nothing wrong with visiting a message board like RR.com and launching vicious attacks--behavior these people might never do in circumstances where they are not in the grip of LGAT fostered trance-logic.

People under heavy stress may regress to trance logic. We probably see it when politicians have to make alibis, or when executives are caught plundering their employee's pension funds. When Richard Nixon and his minions had their backs to the wall, they probably argued from trance logic.

When people are in trance logic, they can confuse others, because what they say seems adult, but the logical inconsistencies of their speech and thought are based on primitive childish cognition and throw people off.

When a child reasons like a child, we expect that, and are not confused.

But when a highly articulate adult suddenly begins reasoning like a child in relation to something in which he or she is emotionally invested, we are often confused--there's been a change in rules, but no one has told us.