Current Page: 12 of 15
Klemmer and Associates
Posted by: Rswinters ()
Date: June 28, 2007 03:52AM

I copied this post from another topic thread. This person is talking about Impact Training Seminars. As I read it. He does go to an extreme in how he is explaining things. Yet, the extreme is equal to the extreme brainwashing of Large Group Awareness Training Programs.

Klemmer is an LGAT and uses many of the same methods and even the same experiential excercises to accomplish the same end result.

As I look back over my involvement as both a participant, and a volunteer staff for Klemmer.

As I read this post. I heard all of these insane comments for participants, staff, and even from myself as I was in delusion from embracing Klemmers LGAT philosphy that is at the core of all LGAT's.

Please read this copied post. Link to it is provided here also.


Senior Member

Joined: 13 Nov 2006
Posts: 166

Posted: 06-27-2007 12:31 PM Post subject:


outofimpact, you got me thinking You know, I came upon something while I was compiling the core and TIT training information yesterday. Impact indoctrinated me with the idea that I was the source of all my happiness and that I was enough by myself and that I did not need to have anything or anyone else in order to be joyful. That joy was a state of being, not something you own. Not only was I enough, but I was also a god, a divine creator that was absolutely accountable for everything I did, allowed, said, thought, observed etc. The world was either my oyster or my shit-hole if I so wished.

But then they talk about "reasons" or "results", and that you have one or the other, you have either the results you want or you have reasons as to why you don't have them. Then they expand this idea into showing that you can find out what your results are by asking other people what they are. They are the mirror of your life if you want to know what you have been doing in that life. They then expand this idea again and ask you to introspect and see if you are successful in business, relationships, money, your profession etc. It is YOU and your limiting, ego-mind bound beliefs that make you poor and unhappy. Then in Summit, you are told that you have a divine purpose, and to the extent that what you do in your life aligns with that purpose, you will have joy.

And in Lift-Off you are given this “The Secret” like maxim to go forth and create what it is that you do not have, and this mentality does not stop in TIT, in fact it expands because as you become aware of your divinity, you are better aware of your capabilities to create, and your limiting beliefs should become fewer and smaller. There would be so many people who would stand up in TIT that would talk about the miracles they created and the success stories would go on and on and on. But then people would stand up (oftentimes after having given the previous testimonial) and say how unhappy they were and how they keep on working on being a Master but when they fail they get disheartened. Then they would be coached by a trainer to the effect of, “that is the process of mastery, you are on the correct path, keep going, you are doing great,” and so on.

Where I am going with this is that Impact continually tells you that you are enough for your own for your happiness. AND you have to look to other people to find out if you are happy. AND you also have to continually be actively pursuing wealth and joy and purpose in your professional and personal life that you are DIVINELY ENTITLED to. Can you see the paradox? If you are enough on your own, why pursue anything? Why look to anyone or anything else at all? Introspection should be enough given Impacts “intrinsic god” premise, which makes the trainings ultimately unnecessary. But also, if you are not happy and joyful inside, how can you find it looking for that happiness and joy in anything extrinsic if you are enough intrinsically? You are to be continually making your external reality align with your divine purpose. Impact continually prods you be entitled and materialistic, and at the same time, you have to continually look to Impact for your results, but not your answers.

Let me be more concise. I reject impact’s “intrinsic god” theory, but I do subscribe to the idea that nothing extrinsic or material can make a person truly happy ON ITS OWN if one does not learn how to be intrinsically happy (via parents, therapy etc.). But while Impact has you adhere to this “intrinsic joy” principle, in the same breath they urge you to do EVERYTHING POSSIBLE THAT A GOD CAN DO to not only get what you DESERVE, but to also HEAL THE WORLD UTTERLY. Which essentially means, enroll in the trainings and chant mantras till your face turns purple. And if you don’t, you are a part of the problem. If that isn’t enough pressure to make one go mad, I don’t know what is. Impact tells you there is nothing to “do”, but there is everything to “be”. But all Impact is about is to have one continually DOING what the next thing is to grab your abundance. It is materialistic and so self-serving in the extreme, you are continually being forced to look outside of yourself for happiness and contentment and these questions run in the background of the mind of the trainee: Do the Impact trainers or staff or senior trainees approve, what is their feedback for me? Am I wealthy, and if not, what is keeping me from being wealthy? What is my purpose, what does God want for me…I mean, what do I want for me? Is my life in alignment with my purpose? And if not, it is my jobs fault or my marriage’s fault or my mind’s fault and I need to dispose of them so I can be on purpose and be happy. I need that status symbol to represent the divine abundance I have claimed for myself. Who, based on results, in this TIT group has more success than I? Who has more money, better relationships, more relationships, the European cars, confidence, self-esteem, better jobs, who staffs more often, who contributes more to the trainings, who is the trainer’s favorite busy bee. Nothing is ever enough, it is always about more, more, MORE. Continually comparing, which is what Impact tells you not to do, but mandates that it must be done so you can know where you are in your life.

It’s an insane tangled web of control through semantics. I am dizzy writing this, but I was positively mesmerized by it while I was in it. And everyone I saw in that TIT basically sounded like this: “Oh, you are so inspiring, I wish I could find the words like you can,” or “Oh, she is so in tune, I wish I could be like her” or “Please assist me, it seems like my life is going insane, but I still came to the meeting tonight even though I didn’t want to” or “My life is in the crapper” and then they would stand up in the training and say “my life is wonderful!!!” or “The LDS church is true, but Impact is true too, but they aren’t compatible, and the shelf I keep getting told to put what doesn’t make sense is overflowing my brain and I think I am going insane! So, I think I’ll just put that on the shelf…” or “My vision is expanding, I have everything I have dreamed. But I still have problems” or “I spoke to a squirrel today, and he told me to stop worrying all of the time…” or “Yes my daughter is gay, and although I am unconditionally loving, I wish she would give me grandbabies” or “Listen to the divine spark within, you have all of your answers. Now, are you open to some feedback?” or “I got the car I wanted and I am a god!” or “My interior decorator and I created the perfect space for me to do my light-work in my house. Things are super” or “I have cancer, and I want TIT to heal me. Oh crap, I died, but the training still works! Everything is in divine order” or “This morning I woke up and a dark spirit was hovering over my bed, and I asked him what he wanted and he said “love” so I hugged him with my divine light and a portal opened and he ascended to the light. Then I ate a bowl of Cheerios for breakfast.” or “I love the church, but I want to have sex out of wedlock, so I am going to do it anyway, I don’t need to be honest with my clergyman, I am at a higher level of enlightenment than he is and this serves a higher purpose” on and on and on.

Options: ReplyQuote
Klemmer and Associates
Posted by: Rswinters ()
Date: June 29, 2007 03:44AM

Large Group Awareness Training Programs are across the board based on the same methods, techniques, and much of the same philosophies. Read as much as you can about LGAT and its impact on peoples lives.

Read not just the positive. Read all of it. Both positive and negative. Read as much information as you can about them.

Having gone through all of Klemmers seminars. Having volunteered as a staff person to assist the facilitators on running these seminars.

What is shared in this message that I am cut and pasting here is very good.

Klemmer creates an experience in their seminars that confronts your deepest emotions and when you fully engage these seminars with all of your emotional strength as Klemmer encourages you to do.

Your core belief systems will be laid bare in front of you. What you fail to realize at this place in time which is created numerous times in these seminars and build upon one another.

When I started my Klemmer experience. I would never in a million years embraced such a philosophy as "The Secret" is. I would have seen the New age philosophy point blank prior to attending these seminars.

After almost a year and half of applying Klemmers philosophy that I gained in each seminar that I attended during this time. I was manipulated ever so slowly to embrace a philosophy that I would have steered clear of because of deeper core beliefs that I hold that will always conflict with this New Age philosophy. Thank God for that. It finally woke me up to the insanity of it all.

It took the results that I created in my life from Klemmers philosophy to blow us so atomically that I am now sorting out the debris from it in my life.

As I am typing this message. I still can't believe I got sucked into a philosophy that is at the core of Klemmers seminars. I feel completely like an idiot in how I allowed for this to occur in my life.

In time I will regain my legs, and will be a better man from this. But that will not be from Klemmers influence upon me. It will be from being able to identify the absurdness of Klemmers philosophy and learn to avoid such garbage again in my life.

Here is the post that I believe you will find very insightful. Remember to keep in mind Large Group Awareness Training regardless of how they window dress them. They are at the core the same crap.

Senior Member

Joined: 03 Jul 2006
Posts: 161
Location: South Africa
Posted: 06-26-2007 03:02 AM Post subject:


Hi SaneAgain,

Firstly, it is a pity more South Africans have not discovered this website because it is the best there is on the subject of cults, LGATs and the like. Secondly, there is a problem in SA with this so-called self-help industry.

As it is almost everywhere in the world, the self-help industry in South Africa is unregulated; anyone can become a life coach, spiritual teacher or whatever they wish to call themselves. This is problematic because it opens the industry up to exploitation by unscrupulous people.

Many people are seeking spiritual answers to life. Unfortunately, in my experience, in most cases they are being exploited by people using tried and tested methods of coercive persuasion that destroy the foundations of people’s lives, removing them from the support of family, friends, and structures that have always served them well.

In most cases, the aim of the course providers is to earn money; once one course is done, there is always another one that a person needs to do.

"Teachers" with even less scruples use their mind control methods for other reasons beside financial ones, including sexual abuse.

Removing support structures is the first step an abuser needs to take in order to abuse. That is why people who do such courses are told not to share what happens on them with their family and friends, because then the teachings could be questioned.

It is not to done so that the courses won't be spoiled for them should they choose to do them. It is done to remove the "sounding boards" of people that course attendees trust.

Now, I am not endorsing Doctor Phil, but there were a few things that struck me recently about things he often says on his show, relevant to LGATs, and they are pertinent to how these "courses" work in people’s lives.

One of the things he often says is that people have to get real…

So, if someone is asked, for instance, "How is it (the course) working for you?", they will invariably tell you what the claimed wonderful outcome is, but what is the reality of the thinking (programming) these courses provide?

Don't give me the claimed outcome, give me the truth of what is happening.

"How is it working for you?" Let's expand on that and ask what the effect of applying the course logic is on one's work, one's personal relationships, and one's health.

An honest appraisal of such areas of one's life should reveal that things are not better and, most likely worse, than before. Disfunction is sure to be found.

As Doctor Phil said to a person on one of his shows: "So if you're smart, and you are, you should see that it's just not working"…

BUT, people need to "get real" to see that.

If things are not working, there are always thought-stopping clichés to prevent doubts from surfacing. SaneAgain, you mentioned some from Quest in your last post: "shift the energy", "create a world that works for everyone", and "why have you created this reality for yourself?"

Maybe the "reality" that has been created is the "unreal reality" of the LGAT thinking. Most likely, it is.

These clichés are often unclear and their meaning encompasses a wide range of possibilities.

What may work in a hall where a course is held – where everyone is on the same page, having been led there through a carefully scripted process designed to produce oneness of view – won’t work out there in the "real" world.

Oh, given the "confidence" the course provides you might get that raise at work, but then you probably deserved it. (Quest, for example, loves anecdotal stories of such things as people getting raises immediately after taking one of their courses).

The LGAT will take credit for that. Yet, when you try something else and fail, then you will be the one that will be required to take responsibility for it. Where something goes wrong, it is not the LGAT's fault...or so they will tell you. It is your fault. You are preventing the success you seek.

Oftentimes, that success, the LGAT will tell you, is you allowing the people closest to you to manipulate you. By doing that the LGAT drives a wedge between you and those people. Naturally, those people won't agree with your newfound point of view, but the LGAT will tell you to expect that; obviously, it is going to happen. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know you will be opposed.

Then, who understands you and where does your support lie? The LGAT "understands" you and "supports" you…not your spouse, your lover, your blood…the wonderful caring people from the LGAT. (SARCASM)

In my experience, one of the biggest "weapons" used against participants on these courses is this:

A person's greatest fear is identified. Invariably that comes from a past experience in life. The person does not want to go through a similar experience again. However, it is revisited in many ways on a course, including long meditations that take the person back to that time and place. Then, actions are put into place to prevent that experience happening again.

What is in fact happening is the person is then put into a state of fear of that situation because they are forced to experience it once more. Something like meditations can be very powerful in revisiting it.

Everything that is done from that point on is geared towards preventing the situation of the greatest fear happening again. And it is done from a position of fear. People are not empowered; their power is taken away from them.

People's energy is shifted, yes. It is shifted into fear and fear is contracting, negative energy.

Fear has a negative affect on the body, and on decision making. I have found that the body responds to such experiences and shows its distress. Examples you provided of this are, among others, nightmares and depression.

Thus it happens that people afterwards - because their power has been taken away from them and they have been put into a position of fear - often have to consult those who teach such courses to ask what they need to do when difficult situations arise. And difficult situations will arise because of people trying to live by the twisted logic of the courses, logic that doesn't work in the "real" world.

Where does the power then lie? Not with the person who attended the course, but with the "teacher". The "teacher" decides how one should live one's life. The power to make decisions is removed from the course attendee.

Incidentally, what true qualifications do these people who teach the courses have? What proof do they have that their methods work? What can they tell us about the effects on people who are traumatised by the courses?

Buster mentions people who have had nervous breakdowns, but turned out successful. That is anecdotal evidence. The only thing that is clear is that people have suffered nervous breakdowns. Just how much has it cost those people, and those close to them, to get back on an even keel?

Is that what self-empowerment is about? I see severely twisted logic at work.

A number of studies have found a link between LGATs and post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Where does the PTSD found in course attendees come from? It comes from incidents along the lines of what I outlined up above.

My ex went through some particularly nasty courses with a con man by the name of Louis Smit. I have since learnt of accusations of mental, physical, spiritual, and sexual abuse against this man, as well as fraud. They come from inside South Africa and outside South Africa. Let me not get away from your subject, though.

Relating to PTSD, one day, after some research, I handed my ex three A4-sized pieces of paper and asked her whether she was experiencing any of the symptoms on them. She answered "yes" to 90 percent of those. That is when I told her they were the symptoms of PTSD.

She had had those problems for nine months, ever since she took her first course.

She still has many of them today, almost two years down the line, and she has shut herself off from all of her friends, living a life removed from them and based on fear. Yet, until she recognises the truth of what the LGAT experience did to her, she will not be able to move out of the constricting vice of the damage it has done and is doing.

The devastation it has caused in her life is incredible and I, too, have suffered hugely because of it.

I experienced first hand how she dissociated after the second course she did. I saw it with my own two eyes.

When she arrived home, she was glassy eyed. She said: "I feel so big and everything looks so small", and she was "not there". Her eyes and her energy were cold. She looked at me as if I was a stranger. From there, it was all downhill.

Dissociation is a protective measure people use when in situations of extreme stress. It is clear what induced the situation.

If you look on these message boards at other LGATs, you will be struck by the similarities of the methods they use. The stories written by people who did the courses and those indirectly affected by the courses are remarkably similar. The devastation the courses can cause is huge and there are plenty of examples of that.

I would never recommend an LGAT to anyone and Quest is an LGAT through and through.

Turn 180 degrees in the opposite direction and run, is my advice, Run, don't walk.

Options: ReplyQuote
Klemmer and Associates
Posted by: Rswinters ()
Date: June 30, 2007 03:35PM

I started a new topic link where I am going to specifically get into the knitty gritty of how Klemmer seminars are operating within mental health malpractice realm. I will share much information and give links to resources and information out there to read.

Here is link, and my first post.


Senior Member

Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 194

Posted: 06-30-2007 12:22 AM Post subject: Brian Klemmer's company Klemmer & Associates exposed...


I looked at my records that I kept from going through Klemmer & Associates Personal Mastery seminar program.
Here is the order of seminars.

1. Champion Workshop. 3 hour introduction to Personal Mastery. (held in participants state) I paid 20.00 discounted from 59.95 regular price.

2. Personal Mastery Seminar. 3 day seminar over a weekend. (Held in participants state) I paid 395.00 discounted from 795.95 regular price.

3. Advanced Leadership Training. 4 day seminar from Wednesday to Sunday. (Held in San Francisco, CA) I paid 1695.00 discounted from 2295.00 regular price.

4. Heart of a Samurai seminar. 5 day seminar from Tuesday to Sunday. (Held in San Deigo, CA) I paid 2995.00 discounted from 3995.00 regular price.

5. Samurai Camp (Six month long seminar. With two weekend seminars held in Tempe, AZ. Both weekends are 3 days each. I paid 3,500.00 discounted from 5000.00 regular price.

Samurai Camp: First weekend a month into seminar, and second one about a month and a half after the first weekend. This seminar is incorporated in a participants life by having a weekly conference call about 2 months before first weekend, between weekend seminars, and wrapped up by transforming small group that has been your conference call team into a mastermind group. Which you go through about a month and a half of conference calls with your team, and facilitators instructing you in how to run a mastermind group.

I paid 8605.00 for just the seminars alone. I also had to pay for airfare, and hotel accommodations while at these seminars. I paid for my soon to be ex-wife also to attend these seminars also. So as you can see. It was not a cheap deal.

On every enrollment form for each seminar there was this statement and questions asked.

“This is a personal growth seminar. It is in no way a medical model designed to fix psychological problems. It is about you attaining the success that you desire. Please answer the following confidential questions:

Have you had any history of psychiatric disorder? Yes/No

Are you now, or have you within the last 6 months, been undergoing treatment by a psychiatrist or psychologist? Yes/No

Yes/No. If you checked yes to either or both of the above questions please explain.”

On every form I signed and paid on. I answered the same on every form. I acknowledged I was seeing a psychologist for issues around two failed marriages, and many other mistakes made in my life. I answered basically each of the forms the same.

I do not know what I soon to be ex-wife stated on her forms. I do know that she needed to state she was seeing a psychologist too. I know for certain at least within the six month period before attending her first seminar. She was seeing a psychologist for sexual abuse from her childhood, and young adult years. I know this because when I divorced her in our first marriage. She was in a very intensive course that she was going through with a psychologist that lasted around six months. Plus she was seeing a psychologist for our first divorce issues just as I was seeing one for my end.

I applied Klemmer & Associates million dollar formula “INTENTION+MECHANISM=RESULTS” to create getting my soon to be ex-wife again to remarry me from the application of Klemmers philosophy on my life. Well, it worked. I got my ex-wife to remarry me.

How smart that was? Well plain and simple it was the stupidest thing I have ever done. I would never even tried to do so if it was not for the insane, and powerful emotional influence of Klemmer upon me emotionally, and the strong influence it had on my psyche.

After much thought, debate, and researching much information about Large Group Awareness Training Programs. Klemmer & Associates has participants promise in seminars not to divulge the mechanisms used in seminars. They frame it with two aspects. 1. They use your personal integrity as a means to keep you from sharing it with others that have not gone. 2. They use a line that says, if you give people the answers then they will not be able to experience what you experienced. Because they will have the answers, and it will not create the emotional experience needed by them.

Okay, enough of the garbage integrity that Klemmer & Associates uses to keep secrecy around what takes place in their seminars. I created this topic thread to expose this so called integrity of Klemmer & Associates.

I am going to create posts exposing the contradictions of Klemmer & Associates. I am going to use their own definition which they use and show up with in defining what integrity is.

I am going to use the definition of integrity that they showed me in how their company operates.

Here is what I am going to expose with this topic thread:

“This is a personal growth seminar. It is in no way a medical model designed to fix psychological problems. It is about you attaining the success that you desire.”

Since Klemmer choose to make this bold statement in enrollment forms, and it is stated up front before you even can even attend. I am not sure what I agreed to on release waivers. They did not give me a copy for my records to keep. But, the contradicting aspects are still in play regardless.

I will be working on more posts where I will expose how they say seminars are in no way a medical model designed to fix psychological problems. Then turn right around and create within seminars these psychological models that are used to create an experience of addressing your core belief systems (Which is where psychological problems exist).

I will be sharing in detail about the Red/Black game in Personal Mastery, Samurai game in Advanced Leadership Training, Homeless game, The Raft (Lifeboat) in Heart of a Samurai, and the many aspects of Samurai Camp will be addressed in.

I participated in these seminars as a participant, and in several as a volunteer staff. It was mind boggling as a participant. It was very disturbing as a volunteer staff. As I look with hind sight, I see much mind-control, hypnosis, and brainwashing that took place during these seminars.

Well, on this topic thread. I will post much on these seminars. I will link much information to this thread.

My hope in creating this topic thread is for one purpose, and one purpose only. I am not telling no one not to go to Klemmer & Associates seminars whatsoever.

I am doing all that I possibly can to give as much resources, and information that I can give. I hope for others to join in this topic and help give information on Large Group Awareness Training (LGAT’s). There is a huge amount of information out there.

I will try to make it very easy for you to read, and link to much of it. Please dig, and research on your own.

I failed to do the digging, research, and reading of this material. I did a quick google with putting in Klemmer & Associates and did not get much. The reality is there was much to be read on the subject. I just did not know where to look, and how to search for it.

My experience in Klemmer has changed me into a lifelong advocate with the purpose of exposing LGAT’s such as Klemmer & Associates for what they are.
They are operating in the realm of mental health malpractice without a license. They are destructively harming many from their seminars. You don’t hear about them, only because Klemmer has a very good marketing style. They sweep the negative under the carpet, and pump up the positive in the marketing realm.

I am going to help you find the edge of the carpet, and show you where and how to lift up the carpet edge and reveal the harmful destruction on some of the participants lives.

I am one of those harmfully destroyed participants that Klemmer wants to brush under the carpet.

Well, Brian Klemmer along with your company known as Klemmer & Associates. This is one destroyed participant that resulted from applying your philosophy in my life. I will not allow myself to be swept under the carpet.

I will work on much more, and post much more for your reading.
For now… Read all you can on Large Group Awareness Training programs. Both the good, and the bad. Dig, research, and read.

Options: ReplyQuote
Klemmer and Associates
Posted by: Rswinters ()
Date: July 04, 2007 02:52AM

I am currently researching what Scientology doctrine is. I have heard that Brian Klemmers company is based on this belief.

I have much more to research and check. But what I have read so far about what Scientology believes.

I am almost certian that there will be an undeniable connection between Klemmer and Scientology.

So, if you are checking out this site.

You better read up on Scientology and what they believe.

It seems that there is definitely a connection between Klemmer and this religion.

Options: ReplyQuote
Klemmer and Associates
Posted by: Rswinters ()
Date: July 05, 2007 03:00AM

There is definitely a very strong link in Klemmer and Scientology.

Here is a link to a new topic thread about the connection between Scientology and Klemmer. But, it is also addressing all LGAT's since they are off shoots of the same original company.

Scientology = Tom Wilhite from Psi mentored Brian Klemmer who created Klemmer & Associates.


Here is a link to Scientology doctrine and what it is based on.


Options: ReplyQuote
Klemmer and Associates
Posted by: Rswinters ()
Date: July 08, 2007 05:27PM

Senior Member

Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 213

Posted: 07-08-2007 02:24 AM Post subject:


This post is extremely long. But it is exactly the same as if he was talking about Klemmer & Associates. In all aspects on seminars. Remember Brian Klemmers mentor Tom Willhite is the founder of PSI. So it makes total sense that they are carbon copies as they are.

The Red/Black game that happens in Klemmers first seminar is stated precisely how it is done in Klemmers first seminar. So read it and be warned.

Here is link to this post, and a copy of post following link.



Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Posts: 81

Posted: 02-19-2007 09:12 AM Post subject: PSI Seminars, the happy, happy, joy, joy cult.


I was going some research on my favorite subject PSI Seminars and found this on a blog on MySpace after I did a search on LGAT's. This was an interesting read so I decided to post it here. I changed the names to protect the innocent (or guility). He also had a posted pasted here from PSI Survivor's original post and her experience. I deleted it from here to save tme and space.

"PSI cho therapy or, my life with the happy happy joy joy cult
It's time for another edition of 'exploring cult dynamics!' with your host, Mr. xxx xxxx. In previous editions we've tackled hardcore Xtinity and the "Masterpath," moderately exploring common brainwashing techniques & groupthink rhetoric, using examples culled from the real-life situations of those that have to deal with indoctrinated family members, friends etc. Today, our host will recount his own experiences in and around the fringes of a New Age empowerment / 'life transformation' group called P.S.I. (People Synergistically Involved).

Case history: Spring 1997
During the time I became involved with P.S.I. I was living in CO., attending classes at College. After a brief stint of heavy partying in my late teens, I'd settled down into a routine of 'personal growth', which for me entailed studying eastern philosophy, daily routines of Yoga and Tai Chi, and practicing my writing. The College itself was profoundly uninvolving, scholastically: it was set up as a rich kid's 'playschool' where east-coast trustfundies could taste Colorado powder while earning basic credits. The staff at the school ranged from atrocious to "intellectually demanding;" one teacher in particular had a 'hardcore' class that forced potential graduates to construct a by-the-book thesis paper. Given how much time this would take out of the usual routines of bong-toking, heavy drinking, casual sex and snowboarding, this relatively moderate college requirement not only gives telling example of the curriculum and the overall attitude of education, it ended up flunking a good portion of the dissipated trusties as well – not that it mattered. Most of these kids came from mild to extremely wealthy backgrounds; some would receive allowances of up to $500 a week. In other words, they were on the golden road and consequently spent fortunes on maintaining the party-life and in having the latest toys in the brightest colors. Perhaps I have already digressed, but I suppose establishing environment is important to what follows.

In the spring of 1997 I began a job cleaning up the college dormitories. One of my workmates was a man I will call "DB", whom I met near the beginning of the year; he had struck me as a pompous asshole with more money and testosterone than brains and afterward I associated with him as little as possible – not a difficult trick, as by his own admission he spent 165 days snowboarding that year. However, something had changed with DB – the unpleasant aspects of his personality had been replaced by a far more genial presence; he appeared calm and happy and he continually raved about 'this seminar' that had changed his life immeasurably for the better. Quite naturally, he was trying to enroll as many people as possible into the program. The information he did reveal (as much of it was cloaked in secrecy so as not to 'ruin the experience) seemed tantalizing enough, and I assumed that this was a sort of higher-training platform for the various philosophies and paradigms I'd spent the last two or so years studying. The real proof in the pudding, for me, was how drastically changed this individual had become, almost overnight going from someone I'd not want to spend an hour with to a good friend and associate.

D.B. had me attend a "coffee", an informal meeting about P.S.I. attended by graduates with the intention of recruiting new people. By this time I'd already made up my mind to attend – though the cost was around $475, years of Yoga & assorted aesthete programming had given me a very low 'value' on the concept of money; it was energy to be used, not obsessed over, and the promise of a full refund (minus a $50 'processing' fee) if one was not satisfied with the experience – well, what did I have to lose?

The coffee was held at the manor of local funeral-home magnet xxxx xxxxxx, later to head the P.S.I. organization's branch in Denver. I saw a change in xxxx as well – DB dated his daughter and I'd visited the house one time pre-P.S.I.; the man who had struck me as a fairly lethargic middle-class shell had been transformed into a sparkling-eyed, uberconfident powerhouse. "Well, this can't be all that bad," I mused, "and I can always get my money back…"

DB had a hard time convincing other people to sign up, however. Many people shied away from its cult-like demeanor, despite DB's protestations to the contrary; his exuberance and pushiness alienated some, while others viewed the entire affair as suspicious: "cult! Cult!" I remember one of my myspace friends whispering subversively at the coffee DB had pressured him to attend.

SO – I forked over the money and a couple weeks later left for Denver with DB, the Xxxxxx family and another recruit (the same fellow that would eventually abandon me in the middle of Ashville during a road trip) for the four day P.S.I. Basic.

For a complete breakdown of what typically occurs at these life-training seminars, click here:


In essence, P.S.I. "it" is a mishmash of hypnotherapy and psychotherapy with a 'break them down and build them up' format, designed to expose people to the individual programs childhood and young adulthood have installed. Using mind-control techniques designed to bring people in a highly suggestible state, P.S.I. serves as an therapy arena where people can touch into their 'inner self' to confront negative / debilitating programming, all augmented by interactive exercises, meditation-breaks and games.

The emphasis of P.S.I. is win-win, subverting (or, in many cases, suppressing) the competitive survival-streak endemic in all humans, and in positive affirmation, i.e. training the mind towards a 'half-full' paradigm, trying to view situations 'outside the box,' applied rhetoric and mantra techniques ("PSIspeak", my own invention), and many other standards of the self-help industry, including emphasis on accountability & integrity, knowing and going for 'what you want', etc. The biggest slogan of all was "To think is to Create" via Napolean Hill's Think and Grow Rich. "You create your own reality" was a big one too – in that, the subjective programs tended to control the way a person communicates, does business, etc.; I prefer Wilbur's "We co-create our own reality", as this both emphasizes the narcissistic control-room of the noggin yet allows for chaos and chance outside the dominant sphere of groupthink/selfthink. Alas P.S.I. does not make the distinction and I've ever found myself amused / exasperated by people (particularly of New Age bent) who use it to confirm their nebulous conceptions on how everything 'works.'

Again, I've veered off track. As for the seminar: I felt as if I was on an emotional roller-coaster for those four days, and I left feeling refreshed, goal-oriented and extremely positive in my feelings about P.S.I. and life in general. Although I was already aware of some of the conceptions presented, others were new and the whole thing operated in a precise framework designed to maximize these ideas in a highly-suggestible state. I was, like most, mildly brainwashed into this 'new thing' that needed to 'take the world by storm' yadda yadda. Despite my acolyte status, however, I began to notice certain elements that, though I couldn't quite put my finger on it, were vaguely disturbing.

The hard-push to get people to sign up for the next weeklong course composed most of the training for the fourth day, when people had already gone deepest in 'their shit' (the 'Red / Black' game and assorted trauma-release exercises) and then gone through several trust / groupshare activities with the facilitator. The line from P.S.I. was that the Basic was just the basics; in order to get the full training (emphasized on self-training), one had to go to P.S.I. – 7 – a $3000 course, hosted in the Clearwater Lakes area north of San Francisco. The push to do the continuing courses was fairly tremendous; I remember seeing people rushing en mass to the sign-up booths to get a moderate discount on the higher level seminars. $3000 was quite a bit out of my range, but the seduction of 'The Ranch' had me firmly – here I could find out the real techniques of power and self-mastery, I thought; it seemed a natural step forward on becoming a more complete and happy person. I had been given tools to attain emotional intelligence.

The facilitators made suggestions for people uncertain about P.S.I. -7, going as far as to encourage "putting it on the Credit Card" or asking support money from people you knew or P.S.I. graduates. I had met a fair amount of the successful businessmen who were staffing the event; when I asked them ( a 'risk' for me) the answer was a kindly 'no'; when I asked xxxx xxxxxx, he laughed and asked me to propose a payment plan. While I understood that money-is-money and those with it have to be especially careful of those who want to take it, this reaction struck me as a bit at-odds will all P.S.I. had taught me – "giver's gain" – no one wanted to give to me, so I had to do it myself. Thus I worked that summer at the local grocery store, living in a one-bedroom apartment with three other people (including DB), and by the end of August I had $3000 saved. When I handed this to xxxx xxxxxx he made a joke about the money 'disappearing', which I suppose was his humorous reaction to someone who dealt in cash but at the time stuck a needle into my skeptic's core. Whatever, I thought. I'd paid my dues, on my own wage. Let the learning begin!

In order to attend the Ranch I had to fly out to San Fran (on my own dime, natch) and from there was bussed up into Marin County. I suppose a little insight into the history of P.S.I. is necessary. As the legend goes, Andrew Carnagie instructed a man to find 'the secrets of wealth and happiness' and to write a book about it; this man, Napoleon Hill, studied for twenty years and came up with ye classic Think and Grow Rich. Hill instructed several students, who in turn began to teach it to corporations and individuals – creating 'large group awareness training' or LGATs, which went under the name of Lifework, Landmark, P.S.T, est. Here's another (negative, mind you) mini-summery:

"PSI was founded by Thomas and Jane Willhite in 1973. They copied Mind Dynamics, a seminar founded by Alexander Everett from England


Graduates from the same class founded other LGAT's - est, Lifespring, Lifestream, Context Trainings and others. In addition to the break 'em down, built them back up brainwash, the LGAT's do use their own customized version of personality and character ethics which have been evolving over centuries and no literate person should feel compelled to shell out $4k to learn stuff they can get from a good personal growth book such as Covey's "7 Habits of Highly effective People"

[] .

PSI - everything is geared to selling more courses and getting friends and families sucked in, ruining many a relationship and career in the process.

The LGAT's will do anything and everything to make a buck - the facilitators will advise people to quit their job or a relationship just to get them into a seminar (and collect a commission). The dangerous thing is that the PSI facilitators practice psychiatry and relationship counseling without license. They turn their subjects into unpaid sales staff of their seminars and "make people deployable without their consent (that's the reason why Margaret Singer, clinical psychologist from UC Berkeley calls the LGAT's CULTS and that would then be the definition you may want to remember

[] ).

They coerce you into buying their seminars at times when you are most suggestible, vulnerable and emotional. Some of their staff prey on people in the above situations


They use deceptive tactics to sell their seminars. People have experienced emotional and physical breakdowns; suicide attempts and psychotic episodes following poorly run LGAT sessions. That's what I have a problem with.

Willhite died in the late 80's from an airplane crash and the ranch he bought at Clearwater Oaks became the central arena for P.S.I. work, continued by his widow Jane Willhite. It should be mentioned that there is an aura of 'mystery' surrounding the higher levels of training, with certain symbolic distinctions, the biggest being that of the eagle – as the eagle 'never gives up' and will dive for a fish one hundred times (etc) – and those who have completed the $4000 MLS /WLS (men / women's leadership seminars, which comes after PSI-7) receive a gold ring with an eagle's head as a mark of their education. Also, while at the Ranch one can see 'the house' where Jane Willhite lives upon a high ridge and I remember a staff member recounting how she was invited to visit... anyway, the seven-day course was fairly intensive, with a day devoted to ropes-course activities, but my overall impression was fatally marred when, later into the week, one of the facilitators asked "what are you doing here? You have the tools (e.g. the Basic) to control your life" – I found that profound in the sense that it seemed as if I wasn't learning anything really beyond from what I'd initially invested; P.S.I.-7, the 'necessary' course, seemed like a rehash when it was all said and done. $3000 can motivate a lot of justification, and in some ways I still feel the experience was worth it – I met and exchanged information with a number of interesting individuals, had the opportunity (as with the Basic) to have my own "poor-me" bullshit contrasted by people who had truly suffered greatly in their time (Child abuse victims etc) and were getting an enormous amount of catharsis from PSI's techniques. Also, I was recruited to raise $3000 dollars in the course of the week so our class (#300) could have an eagle-plaque on the Ranch's 'wall of fame'. I, who had money programs to begin with and hadn't managed to raise any money for this education from graduates, managed to succeed in this task ("suggested" by another and quickly assumed by all to be on my shoulders). True, I was working in an environment of high suggestibility – using P.S.I.'s business tactics to benefit P.S.I. and, by extension, the 60-odd people in my class – but this 'breakthrough' I count as valuable in the long run, if nothing else than as an interesting examination on how people can be influenced to reach for the checkbook.

It should be noted that, at that time, I had no conception that P.S.I. was only one of many life-training courses. Willhite's origins were given a nice sheen (Hill was mentioned) but an aura of secrecy and an emphasis on the founder's own books etc. gave the impression that P.S.I. was something new, unique, and valuable for the human race (the only truth being in the very last category)—and hey, wouldn't it be great if everyone knew this stuff? Your family and friends and work acquaintances? The recruiting had even been given its own training course, P.L.D, where for 90 days one paid $345 to be called three-four times a day and counseled on goals, the biggest goal of all being enrollment of family, friends and anyone else.

This pushiness, combined with a relatively disappointing P.S.I-7 experience (the ropes-course stands out most prominently in my mind, 10 years later, as I managed somewhat to overcome the vertigo-program of my father & confront my fear of heights) – began to increase my ambivalent stance on P.S.I. Certainly the core curriculum they taught was invaluable (I fumed about why some of these simple ideas were not taught in public education), but all organizations are subject to the interior programming’s of man himself; even P.S.I., as I'd later come to discover, struggled with maintaining its own course of ethics among its facilitators.

The PSIspeak began to get on my nerves with increasing contact with graduates who used it to either a) defend their core conceptions of the world, b) give an arbitrary 'sheen' to the horrors of the world (often condescendingly: example: "so your stepfather f*cked you in the *ss for five years? Well, what are you going to do about it now?") or b) as a method of manipulation – the hierarchy scheme of the various seminars, the emphasis on enrolling and the encouragement that those 'who had not done the training' were somewhat less-evolved (and only needed to go through the Basic to reach 'our level' – note: this was discouraged in rhetoric but exploited in practice); the 'rules' by which facilitators could easily employ PSIspeak to chastise and control participants (I engaged in a debate with one facilitator which ended up with her repeatedly telling me "I had to work on my issues" with the matter, rather embarrassing when a hundred other people are watching).

Yadda yadda… All in all, I enjoyed my time with the happy happy joy joy cult (I take this from one of their exercises, where people jump up and down while exclaiming "I'm excited!" or "I'm happy!" to spark physical enthusiasm and energy) and I did learn a lot However, P.S.I. – like Yoga, Carlos Castenada, Socrates, Nietzsche and any other number of 'paradigm-shift' material – eventually began yet another stepping-stone on the long staircase of my education. The $4000 for the next seminar didn't seem worth the investment, to me; I knew what made me happy (writing, hiking and philosophizing) and, moreover, I had a direct conflict with one of the biggest PSIspeak techniques: think positive. This, like in all cult-like organizations, became the rule of the word; people got on your back for daring negative contemplation. While it is true that peak performance is best initiated with positive reinforcement and that negativity is the sabotaging mechanism, to just conform to a 'positive mindset' reduced and dissipated the very prominent and important issues at large for the human race; it was, in essence, a gate of denial. "Oh, you're thinking negatively about this? Well, that's your subjective experience and you're going to bring the project down and everyone else too" – regardless of concepts like common sense and critical analysis. The more extreme aspect of this can be found in my past musings on 'The Masterpath', and the danger is in this: empowerment is fine and dandy, but four days of seminar are not going to 'fix' anything and maintaining a 'be here now' mentality effectively suppresses many negative stress-points that often should be addressed. I'm of the opinion now that those who confront abuse issues during a Basic would be better off spending the $3000 on professional therapy rather than blow it on a glorified / mystified basic extension. Moreover, empowering certain individuals in this manner can be very destructive; PSI does impart, for some that take the course, an underlying arrogance of assumption and rhetoric-justification, ignorance given platform.

A few months ago I postulated to my friend and my mother that "we're really just evolved beasts", trying to explain through the New Age bubble that refuses to account for our violent, savage past of scramble, scorn and surpass. Everything "is perfect" from a higher stance, people contract into their sufferings, etc. etc. Although this is somewhat effective for whitewashing the very basic concepts of cruelty, stupidity and perversion (giving it all meaning), it certainly isn't a "perfect" formula no matter what syntax is applied to construct a mental realm of belief. Even those with extended training are still like every other person: trained in a certain way to process and filter reality, weighted by doubts, media-influenced temptations and confusion. Corruptions can exist under the 'best' intentions, including those who espouse these best intentions.

Jump forward to eight years later. I'm buying a sandwich at the local Subway when an old high school acquaintance enters. We chat for a bit and eat together; he mentions "P.S.I." and how he looked my name up on a list of 'area graduates'. It seems this person has just completed the MLS seminar and is working to create a "Pagosa P.S.I." He asks me to attend the upcoming meeting. I cautiously agree, remembering keenly the positive and negatives of my own personal experience. I attend one meeting. I see both the good and bad of PSI in those few hours; I hear the life-stories of the participants, and contribute in turn; but afterward I felt little desire to return – P.S.I seemed a long ways back on the 'staircase'; moreover I knew the propagation techniques that P.S.I preach and demand would soon be snaking out time-consuming tentacles around my form. Engaged as I was in my private studies and artistic commitments (then DJ work / production and some writing), I felt I didn't have the time to commit the "100%" they were demanding, a suspicion made clear when, after much pressure and repeated calls, I attended another meeting where they formed a 'mastermind' with the intention of creating a Pagosa basic. Here I realized by lack of desire to commit that 100%; moreover I felt disgust at the draconian techniques of the higher brass of PSI, who said they would only stage a Basic if a certain number of people were involved, and not one person less; I stayed away after that point, though the phone calls and even occasional visits to the Radio station continued for another six months or so. I resented the 'disappointed' looks these PSI members gave me; I must have been seen as a 'betrayer to the cause.'

I've written the above blog because, after some time of not thinking about it, I goggled "PSI" with "mind control" and discovered, after so many years, the structural backbone of these organizations (when I was actually into PSI, the internet yielded very little information about the organization and the founder; wikipedia still does not acknowledge many of the founders and LGATs currently practicing.). This site here


provides more than enough information about what goes on, the hypnotherapy tools employed, history of etc; FACTNet has several message boards where the merits of PSI and its associates are debated back and forth, both sides having generally good points to make (one thread is infected by trolls but the rest of the discourse is that rarity of the net, civilized and with class).


In some ways it was good to have those internal suspicions confirmed, but I stress again that PSI was, for me, valuable life-training; the important thing to remember is "kill the master" – in that, educate oneself and then challenge, critique and continue on, rather than exclusively adhering to only one branch of learning – for such is the way of cults. PSI is certainly superior to shelling out $300,000+ the way top Scientologists are for a debased and daemonic version of these 'human truths'… but the same core training can also be found in a $5.99 paperback version of Think and Grow Rich, with just a dash of Edgard Cayce and Anthony Robbins…

As for my friend DB, he who introduced and championed PSI to me -- he gave away a $20,000 car to someone he hardly knew, put his sister through the training (they had horrifically abusive childhoods), decided to become the greatest facilitator of this information in the world (pre-PSI he'd vowed to become the greatest snowboarder in the world), got into a fight with the PSI top brass because they wouldn't allow his sister to attend the higher-level classes (18+), broke up with his girlfriend and entered an obsessive state about it. The last time I talked to him he mentioned how his sister had been busted with a bunch of gangbangers for selling X, how he'd grown disillusioned with the politics behind PSI, and that he was entering the military.

"To think is to create" works in some ways, but is not a universal maxim, if nothing else than for the bare fact that most people's thinking comes from someone else's creation, both before and after LGAT.

EDIT: I posted a lot below, but this requires attention:

It appears that PSI instructor xxxxx, daughter of PSI World president xxxxx xxxx, cohort of owner Jane C. Willhite, is not practicing Win-Win, Givers Gain. She was convicted of felony hit-and-run driving in December 2004 and will be sentenced on April 8, 2005. She has the possibility of serving up to 4 years in prison, or at least 90 days in jail. She hit a man walking at the side of they road in the wee hours of morning on September 18, 2003 and didn't know she had hit anything due to intoxication. The two gents in the 2001 Mercedes Benz Suv couldn't recall anything either because they were also drunk. I guess she was riding on the "red horse" trying to fill up her emptiness with alcohol. And, I guess poor xxxx xxxx, 58, probably walking home from work, created this, his death. Remember the words of Ernestine Fischer, "They are the ones creating it," referring to the person's circumstances. Jane C. Willhite is planning to help the xxxx family sue the newspaper over their coverage of the trial. What? For telling the truth and exercising their 1st amendment right to inform the public about a documented circumstance? All of this information can be obtained from the Lake County Record Bee newspaper. They should be "nailed on the concepts with the concepts." I don't understand why xxxxx just didn't go into her levels and heal this man's broken body and save his family from grief instead of denying the act from the onset. Xxxxx had a broken windshield and a dent in the front of her car. That could have been fixed in her workshop too. And people pay thousands of dollars to learn these concepts while those at the top of the organization do not practice them, but blame others with the attitude of "I just don't care. They are the ones creating it."

MORE: ------

The following is the climax of PSI Basic, and one the secrets they command initiates not to spread in order to "not ruin the experience". That said, this is a fairly common exercise in all LGAT programs and the below is taken from someone who did the Landmark training.
The Red/Black game: After several of these types of processes it was time for the Red/Black game. In this game people are divided into 2 teams and sent to separate rooms. Instructions were given to get the most number of points and elect a captain who will tally the votes. The trainer asked if anyone in the room had played the game before. A few had and were excused. I raised my hand and stated that I had read about the game in a book. I was told to play the game anyway.

There are 10 frames in this game like a bowling sheet. The 5th frame is double points, the 10th frame is triple points. Points are accumulated from frame to frame. There is no communication to the other team other than a staffer runs back and forth between rooms and tells you how the other team voted between frames. Each team votes on a color red or black with a simple majority. The trainer goes back and forth between the rooms and observes. There is absolutely no help from the staff.

Scoring is as follows:

Team A vote Team B vote Team A scores Team B scores

Black Black +3 +3
Red Black +5 -5
Black Red -5 +5
Red Red -5 -5

It should be obvious that the scenario is win/win win/lose lose/win and lose/lose.
When I went to the next room with my team, I was overwhelmingly elected to be the team captain since I had read about the game. I then explained the purpose of the game and how it is to illustrate the win-win scenario. We took a vote which I counted being the team captain. The votes for black outnumbered red by about 2:1. The staffer came into the room and said. "Team B what is your vote?"
To which I responded "Team B votes Black."
The staffer said "Your vote has been accepted. Team A votes Black."
The black/black vote gave each team 3 points. Everyone seemed quite pleased that the vote turned out the way it did and it appeared that we were headed towards a win-win game. But this was not to be the case.
I asked for the vote for the second frame and this time the overwhelming majority voted black with just a few people voting red. The staffer returned and asked
"Team B what is your vote?"
I responded "Team B votes Black."
The staffer replied "I'm sorry, you did not follow the ground rules. Your vote is invalid."
This was quite puzzling. We took the vote again with the majority voting black. Again the staffer returns and asks
"Team B what is your vote?"
I responded again "Team B votes Black."
The staffer replies again "I'm sorry, you did not follow the ground rules. Your vote is invalid."
Being that the staffer is not in the room when we vote then one of the staff members that is seated at a table in the rear of the room must be giving him a thumbs down sign. The staffers seated at the rear sit with their arms crossed and are not saying a word. I was to learn later that this is practiced.
By this time people are starting to murmur that voting black must be wrong and that we should be voting red. I responded that the purpose of the game is to observe how you play game. I was thinking about how things had become rather interesting. I asked the group what they remembered about the ground rules. People responded with what they thought they heard. I took another vote. This time there were a few more voting red. Again the vote was declared invalid.
This time several people became very upset. A few of them get disgusted and leave the room. They are, of course, attended by staff. I can't blame them since it has been a long and stressful evening and it is well after ..:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />midnight and at the rate we were going we could be there all night.
A man stands up and says that we should be voting red. That is why our vote was wrong. I stated that there was nothing in the ground rules stating which way we had to vote. More and more people rally around this individual and there is a motion to dismiss me as the team captain. The majority vote to dismiss me and install the other guy as team captain.
He takes the vote which is red by a small majority. The staffer returns.
"Team B what is your vote?"
To which the captain responds "Team B votes Red."
The staffer said "Your vote has been accepted. Team A votes Black."
There is much relief and celebration in the room. Not only has the vote been accepted but we are now winning the game. I was to learn later that members of Team A in the next room thought that Team B had tricked them into voting Black in the second frame and were now arguing for the third frame to be voted Red.
I stood up and said that I thought that what I did wrong was not count the individual votes in the second frame since it was overwhelmingly Black.
We took another vote which was black by a very small margin.
"Team B what is your vote?"
"Team B votes Black.."
The staffer said "Your vote has been accepted. Team A votes Red."
Several people are upset that Team A has voted Red. Even more people get up and leave the room. I think by the end of the game only 2/3rds are left in the room.
The fourth frame is voted Red/Red. The rest of the game goes rather quickly. From this point on with each frame more and more people in the group vote Red that by the 9th frame only myself and one or two others still vote Black. The tenth frame was the opportunity for triple points. At this point it is close to the end of the game and I said to myself "Screw it. I guess majority rules".
Everyone in the group voted Red, myself included.
Team A also voted Red.
The final result was a score something like -7 to -17. Little did we know there was hell to pay...

By this time it was after 1 AM and we were told to file back into the main ballroom in silence. The trainer had a look that would kill. When we got to our seats we were ordered to close our eyes and the trainer screamed at us for over 30 minutes straight. We were told that what we did in the game amounted to war and the way we played that game was the way we lived our lives. That screaming lecture accused us of just about every negative behavior imaginable. We were told that crime in the streets, racism, and other personal and social problems were because of people like us. You would have thought we were the leaders of Russia and America who just fired off an all-out nuclear exchange at each other and were now being called to account for it in hell. Those of us who knew how the game was supposed to be played and voted black were especially berated because we didn't "take a stand" for the win-win situation.

After a night of sleep deprivation and now another late night plus all the psychological opening exercises, this screaming lecture over a PA system sends thunderbolts through your consciousness. I felt like with every sentence that a powerful jolt of electricity was sent through my nervous system.

We were told to leave in silence and were given an assignment to spend an hour reflecting on what we just did and to be back at 10 AM. This is in addition to written homework due the next day. By this time it is going on 2 in the morning.

How to win the game? Refuse to vote unless the whole team votes for the win-win scenario.

Philip Cushman writes in his PhD dissertation on Lifespring, "The Politics of Transformation":
The last exercise of the evening is the "Red and Black" game. This is a type of "prisoner's dilemma" game popular in social psychology experiments. Participants are encouraged by the trainer and by staff to "win" the game, really pour it on. Staffers become like cheerleaders, and, after the trainer has explained the game ("The purpose is to win"), participants are divided into two teams and are left on their own to elect captains and figure out how to win the game.

[COMMENT: The game, of course. is rigged. It directly follows the long "parent process," when participants are in an euphoric, emotionally primitive state in which they experience the ultimate gratifications of childhood: unconditional love and unlimited attention. After all the importance the trainer has placed on "winning," "doing whatever is necessary to win," and "creating your own reality," it turns out this game can be won only if the two sides cooperate. In the 18 trainings subjects reported on only once did participants figure out how to cooperate.)

By the time the game has to be stopped, 3 of 3"behavior" subjects (100%) reported that many people had become very excited. driven, and frustrated about winning. it is at this point the trainer steps in and harangues and humiliates the participants. He swears at them, he calls them names, he blames the arms race and world hunger on people like them, who "can't imagine winning without killing the other side."

The recrimination is very strong, and very effective. All subjects reported being affected by it and remembering it. The pattern was the same for 14 of 15 "experience" subjects (93%). Either subjects felt distraught because they tried to win by making the other side lose, or they figured out the key to winning, but they were too frightened to speak up or too self-critical to believe they knew the answer Either way, one "experience" subject noted, everyone seemed to feel embarrassed and crushed. As one "behavior" subject noted, it was, paradoxically, a no-win situation.
Random posts from a link above that elucidate the dangers of the self-growth industry:
"I attended the PSI basic seminar a couple of weeks ago. I am a registered nurse that works with war veterans. PSI is very dangerous. I don't care how much positive information was instilled in the class- most of which is common sense- there are no trained professionals (i.e., psychologists, psychiatrists, and physicians) that specialize in mental health to circumvent the extremely emotional, oftentimes painful, and damaging awareness that occurs during the seminar. One is asked to "take a closer look at what is really going on and come to terms with the 'truth of the matter'." One is placed in a semi-trance state and asked to relive very emotionally disturbing and painful experiences in life. 99% of the individuals have no idea what they are in for when their friends/family members suggest the seminar. Those who attend the basic are asked to dive into their emotional baggage for four days and then left with no safety net to pick up the pieces of their "discoveries." Unless, of course, one wants to pay $3400 to attend PSI7 (an advanced seminar) to learn how to utilize tools to cope with the potential damage created from the basic seminar. I had a very unsettling feeling after the seminar ended. I was told by my microgroup leader and other PSI junkies that it was me coming to awareness of my "less than adequate life." I sat down and discussed my feelings and experiences with TRAINED professionals. After realizing what PSI seminars was all about and the potential danger that can be wreaked upon one's life, I felt a clarity that I had not felt since the first day. Please do not enroll in PSI seminars and have a heart-to-heart discussion with those in your life who believe that PSI is their only way to truly achieve a rewarding life. They are selling themselves short and spending a lot of money to do so!"
"My relationship fell apart because of this. she tried over and over to get me to go. I asked her what qualifications these people had and how much money they were paying her. (she's been to two "ranch" seminars.) She's currently in pld and came home one night from a meeting and left me. I don't get how to show her that this is the biggest scam in the world. she's a very impressionable person. no job, sits around all day, no job to fulfill her. This has given her a purpose. a purpose without pay. jeeze, i'm I retarded?
I am sorry that your relationship fell apart. Oftentimes, individuals that put their faith in the program to give them answers, are guided by others that truly think they are guiding them in the right direction to gain insight into specific situations in their life. As one individual put it, "If you don't have real issues prior to attending PSI seminars, the facilitator (and others) will assist you in creating some." Unfortunately if you can't see some solidified value in PSI, you can't enroll others to further their mission. The concepts taught in PSI are very real concepts that one can achieve by attending motivational seminars (which PSI is definitely NOT) or buying a book or two. The damaging effects of attempting to get into one's psyche with hypnotizing exercises is certainly a way to brainwash individuals. For those individuals that think PSI is their only way to achieve more in life, I would challenge you to research the "activities" that take place within the seminar. Just about every individual in the mental health profession would concur that the techniques utilized are techniques that can create brainwashing and should be utilized only by mental health professionals not a bunch of pseudo mental health junkies. Even if PSI helps a large number achieve peace, the damage it can do to some outweigh the benefits. Those I have spoken to from the seminar I attended were on a "high" with a manic quality to their presence. This can not last forever. A friend of mine is heavily involved in PLD. PLD encourages groups of people to set their goals to achieve a greater sense of accomplishment in life. PLD is a great concept, however, she had to pay $300 to enroll in this program whereas none of the members were paid staff. They volunteered for the cause and PSI kept their money. A goal of all PLD members to sign up six new people in a 90-day period. If it is supposed to be about her setting goals, why are they giving her a goal to further their profit? A great selling technique after you are raw and vulnerable from 4 days on an emotional roller coaster ride is to get you to sign up for PSI7. I was told that if I wanted true wealth in life that I would get the money any way I could to attend because my life is more important than $3400. Interesting, because PSI speaks a lot about taking responsibility for actions in your life. However, I would have certainly been acting irresponsible by making a snap decision and signing up for a seminar with money that I did not particularly have for such efforts. The hypocrisy on the lessons taught (again, basic common sense) and the overwhelming pressure to sign me up for PSI7 was nothing more than a huge hypocrisy.
I too am a PSI graduate I was very involved with PSI for over a year. I attended all the seminars and staffed etc. I talked a few people into the program. (I really feel guilty about it too) My involvement with PSI Seminars just wrecked havoc in my life. I almost lost my marriage and lost many friends. It has been a struggle to heal and mend relationships.

As a previous poster said "The concepts taught in PSI are very real concepts that one can achieve by attending motivational seminars (which PSI is definitely NOT) or buying a book or two." Even PSI will tell you that nothing they say is new.

The nurse is correct. PSI Seminars takes some really valuable concepts that can be helpful to people to reach goals in life. People buy into the good stuff, but don't realize that it's wrapped around an inner core of deception, greed and exploitation.

PSI Seminars does use cult tactics of thought reform, brainwashing, trance, triggers, and psychological techniques that open up peoples psyches in a very unsafe environment.

I saw trainers mind game students into doing things that were not in the best interest of the student. They set themselves up as authority figures, students listen to them as if they possess the answer.

PSI Seminars is like a beautiful box of chocolate truffles with a creamy feces center. People eat them up and exclaim about the yummy chocolate. Then offer you one. No one wants to admit to eating poop.

Especially not the PSI grads who every time they witness something unethical the cognitive dissonance they experience triggers them to rationalize it.

I have personally met and interacted with many of the trainers and the owner. Jane C. Wilhite, Ernestine Fischer, Gary Elkins, Shirley Hunt, Rob Rowe, Cathy Q. Perez, Carol Santucci etc.

I have no respect for these people. They know that "things happen" that are damaging to the students. I quote Ernestine Fischer "I just don't care. They are the ones creating it.".

I never once saw a trainer/owner/facilitator take responsibility for what they created. They always blamed the student.

Just finished PSI Basic here in Scottsdale. A friend of my mother's went in LA and just raved about the seminar. I thought that that was just what it educational seminar in business-just what I needed at this point. I had no idea it was an LGAT until after we paid the $445.00. I had searched on the web for PSI and didn't see any negative things until I searched explicitly for negatives. This is where I made my mistake. I WISH I had done the negative search before payment.

I asked for a refund, was given the "no refund- but you have one year in which to attend" song and dance. I then called the Arizona Attorney General's office, then the Arizona Law Library wherein I was informed that their 'no refund' policy is not illegal because I had initialed the application where it states 'no refund'. (silly me). I called the Credit Card company and was informed of the same thing-that the chargeback would be denied because of the application. So the only alternative is to go to the 4+ days of activities, THEN ask for a refund. I am supposed to attend the "Graduation" tonight, but I am not going. I cannot stand another moment in the presence of this group; every moment in my past 2 sessions there was spent with them trying to sell me on the next phase, PSI7...which I will never attend.

This group uses manipulation and nearly coercive techniques to just get more and more money out of attendees. I could not believe what I heard people saying to their families on their cell phones during the break after the "Big Pitch" on Sunday...talking about borrowing the $6500 for both of the next stages (a special price for the two!) and how the seminar would guarantee their prosperity and ability to pay it back. I saw people using 3 credit cards to pay for this!

This doesn't even get into the techniques of the 4 days of the sessions. The emotional vulnerability of many there was wrenching to witness, and I felt there was absolutely no one qualified to deal with the fallout from an exercise gone wrong. There were one or two very intense emotional incidents and all that was offered was Kleenex and a hug. This is an irresponsible organization, created to make great deals of money at the expense of people who are insecure and vulnerable. Please do not attend unless you wish to endure amateur psychoanalytic sessions and moments of humiliation.

I have been to PSI Basic and I have staffed PSI Basic. PSI is not an "out-to-rule-the-world" cult, or "let's commit suicide together" cult -- it is a MONEY CULT. It is ALL about the money. The course cloaks the purpose with some reasonably good advice on goal setting, visualization, etc. and the merits of being a good human being, but in the end all they really want is YOUR money, your family's money, your friend's money, your company's money, etc. And if you are really whacked, they want you to (as I did) spend 40 hours "staffing" or up-selling to PSI 7. They pressure the staff into committing to "Paid In Full" PSI 7 up-sells. If the brain-washed staff does not deliver, then they question their "integrity." After the event, they invite everyone to party at the bar. This is touted by the facilitator as an excellent time to really sell, as the liquor sets in, and the confused victim is taken advantage of. At the beginning of my seminar, one of the volunteers was not following party doctrine, so the "facilitator", some lawyer/psyhologist/wanna-be-reverand so verbally abused her, as to force her off the team. Apparently, she might have reduced earnings. As a newcomer to the group, I was scolded within 5-minutes of the facilitator arriving to the seminar room for having a "Looking Good Program" (afraid to be myself). While everyone has a certain degree of self-doubt, I began to question myself, and wonder why he picked on me. The answer is now clear -- I was new to the group, and he knew he had the others already sucked in, so it was time to start chipping away at the newcomer. Later he asked, "When are you going to start loving yourself?" -- Ha ha... Actually, it's not so funny -- I saw one lady lay down $10,000 to continue with this torture. If you can keep a clear head, and filter the good ideas from the manipulation, you will find value in this course. For example: DO NOT STOP THINKING!! The facilitator will continue to say, "stop thinking in your head and start feeling in your heart." Wouldn't a used car dealer love for you to do the same!? Of course they don't want you to think -- that might get in the way of taking your money. When you do the math, PSI raked in around $70,000 from our group in about 40 hours. Not bad...
I forgot to mention above that our facilitator, Paul, actually told all the staffers that God speaks through him! And I think he is serious, or at least the whacked out staff believed him... What a bunch of bullshit!"

Options: ReplyQuote
Klemmer and Associates
Posted by: Rswinters ()
Date: July 14, 2007 12:48PM


Joined: 19 Jun 2002
Posts: 744

Posted: 07-13-2007 07:22 AM Post subject: To Understand One LGAT is to Understand All or Most LGATs


RSwinters wrote:

I for one have found each and every LGAT topic thread very good information for all LGAT's.

This is important. Because...nearly all human potential groups/LGATs
claim to be unique.

A very important step in recovery takes place when it is possible for a person to see that his or her group experience was not unique and that it can be compared with other groups.

This insight is very difficult to arrive at, because when we've given our hearts to a group and have the awful discovery that we've been seen and used as objects/income generating-units, this feeling of betrayal is painful and shaming. One way to defend against the shame of finding oneself used and betrayed is to cling, to convince oneself that the experience was special, educational, or a great adventure.

Its a come-down to face that one was had, and that the experience is far from unique. But...if you can stand the pain of recognizing this, you then get to find out loads of people have been through it too, which means, you have a community you can reach out to.

It is a liberating eye opener to find that your particular group is not unique because with that mindset, you then become able to study the 'comparative anatomy' of different groups and see that the external plumage ( verbiage, doctrine of groups) has quite a variety of colors but underneath, the skeleton (recruitment process, room set up, lack of informed consent, signing away rights to seek damages if harmed) ..all that remains quite similar underneath the seeming diversity.

A seminary professor who taught a course on the conversion process had a favorite phrase:

"Same hardware, different software"

* Claims to be unique and often, subtle put-downs of all other groups, and also subtle put downs of all other methods for healing or self development

* Recruitment through friendship networks or work relationships--which means the risk of stressing valued relationships if you dont want to participate or have misgivings

*Being given the bum's rush/hardsell

*A tightly scripted social set up disguised as a spontaneous one

*May include a very, very anal retentive room set up with chairs in precise rows. all external stimuli blocked out, chairs re-arranged when
people depart, having to sit closer together than what is considered normal distance for your culture's physical distances between individuals.

*Demanding intimate, private information from subjects without any written contract from the group promising to safeguard confidential information--very different from professional health care providers and psychotherapists who are legally accountable for confidentiality and who arrange for clients and patients to sign paperwork defining and protecting their confidentiality

***LGAT subjects often sign away their rights, as citizens to sue for damages in event of their being harmed by participation in the LGAT event. No medical or therapy patient EVER signs away his or her right to seek damages if harmed by treatment received.

Thus many LGATs use the language and powerful techniques of psychotherapy and accept no responsibility for thier use of such power in event that subjects are harmed.

Professional healers wield their power in a context of accountability and responsibility

LGATs wield their power and refuse to accept accountability for use of that power and for any harm done.

*Subjects are made to feel powerful, but are not given actual preparation or any encouragement in the LGAT to think consciously about power itself or the way it is exercised. For subjects in an LGAT, power is just an induced mood, a rush. The LGAT keeps its own mits on the actual process of exercising power. If subjects dare to examine the process, they are shamed for being negative--when what they are doing is trying to become conscious of the very thing the LGAT does not want them to actually see.

In LGAT's power, for subjects is an induced and addictive mood.

In reality, power is about process, relationships, resources and information--and who has more and who has less. LGATs control this
and dont want subjects to look closely at the process dimension of power--they only want subjects to get lost and dependent on the mood of feeling powerful.

Subjects are made to feel powerful but actual power remains with the LGAT. You are only free to speak up if you validate the LGAT. LGATs speak the language of power but retain it for themselves.

LGATs speak the language of accountability but in practice LGATs dont seem to feel themselves accountable--but they do make sure to make subjects feel accountable--and subtly, for subjects 'accountability' in an LGAT is separated from personal power and agency and accountability in the LGAT is linked to deep feelings of personal shame, and fear of failing in relation to the LGAT.

LGATs speak of caring and compassion but do not in practice demonstrate an ethos of care in relation to their subjects. If you fail or feel messed up by the LGAT, you are made to feel it is your fault. In professional healing, the provider takes this as a signal to question the treatment strategy, perhaps seek more information by ordering additional tests, and brining other providers in for consutation.

*If there is success, the LGAT takes full credit. By contrast, a true professional healer assists clients and patients to identify their role in the process of healing so clients can retain as much personal agency and autonomy during the process and then the same or increased personal agency and autonomy afterwards.

*Confrontati0n, pushing rapidly for intense emotion, instant intimacy, hectic pace, not enough time to sleep little or no opportunity to think, and possibly being shadowed by a minder

*Pushing people to spend more money than they are comfortable with

*Shaming and ridicule for anyone who disagrees or hesitates--which reproduces/re-enacts life in an abusive family--which can cause persons already harmed by prior abuse to re-enact, either as bully/perpetrators or by submitting to the abuse and intenalizing blame. THe presons in an LGAT who re-enact as bully perpetrators end up wanting to become leaders in the organization. The ones who re-enact as recipients of abuse become the people who work themselves to nervous collapse trying to please the organization, the way a desperate child tries to satisfy a miserable parent.

*Not being told how the process works, which means you dont have any way to give informed consent--a very important matter for persons who risk having physical or psychological health destablized by stress, confrontation and lack of sleep.


(Retired Moderator)

Options: ReplyQuote
Klemmer and Associates
Posted by: Rswinters ()
Date: July 15, 2007 02:03PM

I have posted the previous two parts. Here is the recent one for you to watch. Enjoy, because Klemmers last seminar Samurai Camp is founded on this philospy. You will buy into this philosphy as you choose to attend Klemmers seminars. It is a set up from the start. You will be confronted with your core belief systems in a shock and awe manner. Then you will be primed and ready for the bait and switch that Klemmer uses to switch out your core belief systems for one founded on what "The Secret" has as a philosphy/belief system.

The Secret's David Schirmer Exposed - PART THREE


Options: ReplyQuote
Klemmer and Associates
Posted by: Rswinters ()
Date: July 16, 2007 08:10AM

Senior Member

Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 255

Posted: 07-15-2007 05:08 PM Post subject: Klemmer & Associates seminar Heart of a Samurai...


Yet another carbon copy excercise used in Impact Training seminars used by Klemmer.

Here it is, with a few comments about it from me.

Senior Member

Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 254

Posted: 07-15-2007 05:06 PM Post subject: Re: Life boat


Disenchanted wrote:
I have heard it mentioned several times on this thread that life boat, along with the arcs was one of the most damaging of all the processes. Would anyone be interested in relating their experience with this or experiences they witnessed in detail?

I am just curious. My experience was very wierd. I was pretty much confused the entire time. I remember that my brain was going crazy trying to figure out what on earth they were doing. I just didn't get it! I remember them having us stand up and tell why we deserved to be on the boat/live.

Then I remember the circle and sticks. I remember thinking that was kind of dumb because you would never be forced to do something like that in real life, but yet they made out as if it were the real deal. And the whole "you just told this person they didn't go and you can't even look them in the eye!!?" from the staff, which didn't make sense to me because who would? I was a tiny bit hurt for a minute when a few people didn't give me sticks, but I blew it off because they only had three and I knew that it was nothing personal for the people I didn't give sticks to so I didn't take it personally when they said "you don't go" to me.

I remember being utterly confused at Pamela spending twenty minutes yelling at someone because he gave his last stick away. I was confused as to why that was such a bad thing if they were really trying to teach us unconditional love for others and that service is the highest form of love.

I recieved a couple sticks and kept one for myself (which I had mixed feelings about) but still did not make it on the boat. Then they simulated dying in the ocean. I cried a little at the idea of never seeing my family again, but that was pretty much it.

I was just honestly confused as to what exactly I was supposed to be getting out of it. After a while I finally decided that their purpose was to make people want to live. That was good for me, sure, I didn't want to die and there were still things I wanted to do. So yeah that was pretty much it for me. Extremely confusing and somewhat uneventful. I never really heard anyone talk about it afterwards.

So when I heard it referred to as one of the most damaging processes, I was a bit surprised. Having recalled the details of my experience in writing this message, I do remember a few people who were really difficult to tell that they did'nt get to go. It broke my heart just looking at them. I remember desperately wanting to explain to them that it wasn't personal....but I guess in reality it was because i just didn't choose them. Wow, is that it? Is it the peopole who get no votes. Oh that is gut wrenching to think that they put me in a place where I was forced to do that to someone. Umm, I think I just got it. (shudder)

I still do want to hear from other people about this process.

Klemmer & Associates uses this excercise in their third seminar called heart of a Samurai. Which is very disturbing in the context of the rest of the seminar setting which is suppose to be about abundance as it is set in a plush resort in San Diego, California (Paradise Point).

I went through as a participant once, and later as a volunteer staff for this particular seminar.

It was just as disturbing for me as a staff person, as it was as a first time participant. More so as a staff person. Which was to create as much chao's as possible. We were told to create as much friction as possible for the participants.

As I look back on my overall experience. What the main purpose in this excercise was intended to accomplish in a participant was a further breaking down of core belief systems in each participant.

Heck what is a participant suppose to do when they face the fact that their core belief system that drives their unconscious decisions can be causing others to die. (Especially for participants who choose to engage these excercises with all of their emotions as I chose to do?)

Yuck, Yuck...

Left me not liking my core belief sytems, and wanting a better set of core belief systems to live by.

BINGO... This is exactly the purpose of these excercises. Now I am right where the LGAT wants me.


This is what it is all about. This is the purpose of these excercises.

This is also where the deception comes in. Because this philosphy is a belief system, and they brainwash you into believing it is not.

Well, lets call it what it is.


Options: ReplyQuote
Klemmer and Associates
Posted by: Rswinters ()
Date: July 17, 2007 12:59PM

Senior Member

Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 268

Posted: 07-16-2007 09:58 PM Post subject: Re: Impact Trainings


Count your blessings because this is very similar, in how Klemmer dealt with my marriage that was on the rocks with my wife. Unfortunately. My wife did not choose to step out, and to this day is seeing herself as victim to an abusive husband. While not facing the abusiveness that she shows up with.

Klemmers version is to encourage her to accept her greatness, and it is not deserving of her to be in a marriage with me.

Which is really funny, because in my experience with Klemmer it was their influence of telling me I was not a victim of her abuse in our first marriage that I divorced her from the abuse she showed up with and I could not handle coming from her. Well, Klemmer encouraged me to remarry her, and they where taking all the glory for our remarriage at the beginning.

Then when the conflicts arose between us. Klemmer coaches encouraged me to focus on the marriage, and later when my wife caught up to me by taking the last seminar called Sam Camp. Her coaching encouraged her to accept her greatness, by choosing a divorce which was a complete flip from a commitment to be willing to go through Professional marriage counseling with me. Accepting her greatness was to break that commitment last february and to file for divorce with no communication period on things.

All the while her Klemmer coach that is a paid staff person at Klemmer encouraged her to accept her greatness at my expense.

Way to go Klemmer in keeping your philosphy of making a world that works for everyone with no one left out.

I guess since Klemmer sucked all the money they could out of me as I have attended all their seminars. I don't matter to them any longer as they have discarded me, and the marriage that was created from Klemmers influence on my life.

So, count your blessings. Your wife is attending counseling with you.

That is something to be happy about.

damagedbyassociation wrote:
Hello all,
This has been a relief to me to read. Especially to ArmyofOne, thank you. I started the Impact trainings the same time you did, from what I've read about you. I couldn't stand one more second of what was going on when Justin incited a mob to throw out the man in the back of the room. I left.

Much to my disappointment, my wife stayed. Then she secretly signed up for the second brainwashing as well. It very nearly ruined our relationship, as she held her commitment to Impact as something more important than her commitment to our relationship. I think it is still hard for her to see how inherently damaging Impact is.

When I wanted out, I was threatened by one of the staff members - she told me that if I left, my wife might choose to leave also, and that I would be responsible for that (right), then she said that if I leave and she chooses to stay, that I'll be way behind her in learning and that will have a negative impact on our relationship (if she only knew how much further behind my wife would be, and how damaging THAT would be to our relationship). When I thanked her for her understanding, after she finally agreed to reimburse me (more on that at another time) for the reimbursable expenses (they get you either way, don't they?), she told me , "I didn't say I understood you." If there was any way to be more insulting and degrading, she didn't have the mental capacity to deliver it.

I waited patiently, but anxiously, for my wife to get through the first course, and was happy to have her home. She knew how strongly I felt about Impact, so she signed up to do the second course of the series without telling me and told the staff to use what money I would be reimbursed for, to go toward her (even more) expensive second round, for fear that I would be able to talk her out of it. She went.

Every day, and every night I called and left messages on her phone for her to please come home. It was all in vain. I went down on the second to the last day, and waited on the road with my kids, with a sign on our trailer that begged her to leave Impact and come home - when she finally came out, she wouldn't listen to me - she had been approached by some staff members before coming out and wanted to know why I was out there protesting. She had made up her mind (or Impact had made it up for her) and she said that to have integrity she needed to finish this course and that she would be home Saturday night. Our kids were crying because she wouldn't come home. I told her I couldn't stay in a relationship where something like this was so much more important to her than how we felt. The kids wanted to stay with her, and they all got out. My wife told me that it was fine if I left, that she would go on and have a bright, happy and fulfilling life with or without me, that I wouldn't hold her back anymore (and I have only one idea of where that notion came from, and it wasn't from any experience we've had in our relationship).

As upset as I was, I left the kids with her and drove away (I know, I'm an idiot for doing so). I never thought she would take our kids into the building, but she did. I figured she would call her nearby aunt to watch them for her. I spoke to my father-in-law by phone on the way home about what was happening and why I felt my marriage had come to a horrible end. He managed to say just the right things to me and told me to try to steady the boat when someone was rocking it.

I went back to pick up the kids, calling my wife's aunt first, to find that she did not have the kids. I went back to impact to get them. I walked in calmly, found the kids watching a movie and eating food that had been provide them, with a staff member. I told them to come along with me, that we were going home to wait it out for mom. The staff member stood up, got right in my face and told me that I wasn't going to take them anywhere and that we could go discuss this politely (- right). I told him that that wasn't necessary - that we were just going to leave. He told me he was going to call the police if I attempted to take my kids. I grabbed my two youngest by the hand and began to walk away as quickly as we could. In the parking lot, several staff members ran out and started blocking my two older kids that were behind me from coming to me, as I frantically pleaded with them to quickly get off of the property and come home. Hans (according to my oldest child) was in the parking lot and was yelling at my kids that they shouldn't go with me saying things like "Can't you see how sick he is? You're not safe going with him; you can't go with him." It caused my kids to start to cry, and one of them was so confused on the parking lot, standing behind a wall of people, who kept persuading him, as well as the rest to stay. He finally started walking toward me as I got in touch with the Salt Lake County Sheriff's office.

I told the deputy what was going on (my side of the story), and how it was their intention to call and report me for kidnapping and trespassing (and disturbing the peace, as the deputy put it later, sort of chuckling about how that would never have happened if they hadn't been idiots (my words - when I was begging for my kids to get off of their property and come with my whole soul) and that they certainly weren't going to charge me with anything - they (the Sheriff's office and the deputy calling me later on my phone) just wanted to know that my kids were OK.

What kind of an organization would do that to a family? To small kids? To a relationship that was on the rocks? Hans (according to my oldest kid) was yelling at me in the parking lot, telling me how he couldn't understand how my wife would put up with me for the 16 years we've been married, and that I was holding her down and keeping her from being happy. I was shocked beyond belief that anyone claiming any sense of an ability to be helpful to others would have the audacity to say something so hurtful and spiteful after hearing only small portions of one side of a story. It only gave me more evidence that whatever my wife was caught up in was worse than even I had imagined.

The day I went down to wait for my wife was after reading the email that ArmyOfOne had sent to everyone that had gone through Quest with her. She had been to this site by then, and I found it after doing my own searching for Impact and cults. I'm glad I got out when I did. I wish my wife would have followed her gut feelings about it, too, but unfortunately, she was more committed to her friend that had told us about and encouraged us to get into Impact, than she was to her REAL integrity (it's funny how they change that word to mean commitment to Impact).

We're now in counseling - as a very direct result of the negative impact of Impact - that ought to be their name - Negative Impact. I wish there was a way to shut them down. I wish there was a way to tell every single person going in what it really holds in store for them.

Here's to healing damaged hearts and minds and relationships because of an ugly thing called Impact Trainings, and thank-you all - I feel I have a support group to go to.

Options: ReplyQuote
Current Page: 12 of 15

Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
This forum powered by Phorum.